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Will SWA and AT truly merge?

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If it makes you sleep better at night thinking the arbiter won't factor in the MASSIVE pay difference, then that's great. Remember the terms 'fair and equitable'? We aren't even talking about 20-30% here..

I find it interesting that some AAI pilots think they should get it all, full seniority, 80 percent payraise with increase in QOL issues per the Southwest contract. Especially when some folks over there were begging for a Southwest staple back in December.

I have no idea how the 717 issue will play out and I'm not threatening anything, I was just laying out that it's a very broad topic that will have to be negotiated between SW and SWAPA.
 
So Johnson Rod, tell me exactly what Southwest pilots get with some kind
realitive seniority scenerio. (and don't start talking about gates at ATL, that's a company gain)

So this is what it looks like..

AAI - between 50-80% increase in pay, and big increases in QOL.
SW - nothing.

That's a pretty big difference to put in front of an arbiter.

I'm sorry I did mix the two events, the SLI and the new opener for the 717 rate. The rate will be hashed out been SWAPA and Southwest. It's a new type for SWAPA. Will the Airtran pilots have some input on that? Absolutely, but it won't be negotiated by ALPA.

Realistically speaking, I know there won't be a staple, but I bet there won't be realitive seniority either. It will most likely be something blended in the middle. I think that's the way it will turn out with or without arbitration, only time will tell.





The arbitrators don't care what you "get". I don't know how to put it to you in any simpler terms. They are not your parents or wife.
 
You don't do the payrate in arbitration. You do the SLI in arbitration, AFTER you get a joint contract. And I recall someone stating the arbitrators for the Delta and Northwest merger didn't take the pay rates into consideration, and the NWA guys got a 30% pay raise too. But, of course you don't want to go to arbitration because it will be an unknown for you guys too. There is just no way the AT guys will agree to go without arbitration, because regardless it will be a win win for them, higher pay and then better than a staple SLI. And since they can't get a staple anyway due to that Bond/McKaskil law, I think they will do pretty darn well. I think you know that too.

Just to educate you a little. Nothing states in the M/B bond that a staple is unfair. Plus this is not NWA or Delta.
 
Just to educate you a little. Nothing states in the M/B bond that a staple is unfair. Plus this is not NWA or Delta.

So, it is possible that the SW guys
Could be stapled to the AT list.

It's very unlikely that there will be a staple, or a "windfall" upgrade of SW F/O's
Into AT Captain positions.
 
I have no idea how the 717 issue will play out and I'm not threatening anything, I was just laying out that it's a very broad topic that will have to be negotiated between SW and SWAPA.

If y'all agree to drop the rates on the 717 you'll be hurting your group as well. Just saying. Training events created for folks chasing the money won't make your beloved management happy either. How crappy would it be for some new hire to get hired on by Southwest just to be put on a B scale because SWAPA wanted to spite the other group? What you need to realize is that AirTran pilots receiving parity with your current rates costs your group absolutely ZERO. It's management's problem, not ours or yours.

What we need to do is work on a joint CBA, bring the pay up (which helps EVERYONE in the industry), and then squabble about SLI...

...and then we will drink Wild Turkey and "fraternize" with the planes full of all the drunk, swimsuit models we'll carry...Oops, my subconscious wrote that. Pay no attention. Carry on. :D
 
Just a reality check--- all the contention here is not representative of average WN pilot-
I truly hope it is not representative of AT either -

This is good for both if neither side gets greedy.

Remember that-
 
Just a reality check--- all the contention here is not representative of average WN pilot-
I truly hope it is not representative of AT either -

This is good for both if neither side gets greedy.

Remember that-

No, this is MAYBE representative of 5% of AT pilots. Our guys just want to be treated fairly. And for WN guys to know we are proud of our company as much as WN pilots are proud of SWA. I'm not saying we don't have problems, but its like I have said before, I love my children but sometimes they piss me off, and have to be dealt with, but at the end of the day I still love them.
 
How are the SWA guys getting "greedy"? Are they "greedy" because they don't want to lose seniority?

I could see the AT guys getting "greedy" if they get big ass raises and QOL improvements then ask for some nice seniority bumps too. "Let's see, I take my seat with me even though I am junior by date of hire to over 1500 of their guys in the right seat, all the contract improvements too and a little immortality while I am at it."

Aahhhh......GREED. Just take the money and be happy that your new management team aren't scumbags and you'll actually enjoy your job.
 
Everyone is yelling but no one is listening. Can anyone answer the question that I asked a long time ago?

If "fair and equitable" can only mean relative seniority why wasn't "relative seniority" specified in the B/M legislation?
 
So, it is possible that the SW guys
Could be stapled to the AT list.

It's very unlikely that there will be a staple, or a "windfall" upgrade of SW F/O's
Into AT Captain positions.

YoYou never know. The definition of fair and equitable will be tested. You nor I will not know till the deal is done. Just keeping a open mind.
 
Just a reality check--- all the contention here is not representative of average WN pilot-
I truly hope it is not representative of AT either -

This is good for both if neither side gets greedy.

Remember that-


I agree with you.

There is absolutely nothing on our internal boards that shows any form of hostility to SWAPA members or SWA. All of us have friends there and I think that the two pilot groups have more in common than any other.

Like your group our pilots are very protective of our own. We may quietly massacre each other in union business but we react strongly to any perceived 'jail shower play' from an outside group. Dysfunctional ... Yes. Weirdly loyal ..... Absolutely.

Thankfully, SWAPA's and ATN's MC appear to be far better educated and reality based. That's what we pay them for.

We don't want to steal anything from you. We want to add something if we can.

Cheers. Happy Friday :)
 
Everyone is yelling but no one is listening. Can anyone answer the question that I asked a long time ago?

If "fair and equitable" can only mean relative seniority why wasn't "relative seniority" specified in the B/M legislation?

It doesn't say that. What is fair and equitable is relative to each different situation.
 
What would the Frontier guys say about that

Funny, you mention staple and Frontier guys.....guess what Frontiers openers were with the Republic? They wanted all Republic guys stapled to the bottom of their list.
HA HA HA HA!!!
 
Funny, you mention staple and Frontier guys.....guess what Frontiers openers were with the Republic? They wanted all Republic guys stapled to the bottom of their list.
HA HA HA HA!!!
Why you laughing that is what you guys tried didn't work then won't work now. Relative seniority is fair. AT guys give up there upgrade and you win additional growth with our opportunities.
 
Why you laughing that is what you guys tried didn't work then won't work now. Relative seniority is fair. AT guys give up there upgrade and you win additional growth with our opportunities.

LOL...relative seniority is about as fair as a staple. There is no way your '93 hires are gonna be anywhere near our '74 hire, or even our '84 hires. Maybe if you start basing your expectations on some sort of reality, like DoH adjusted for the reality of this individual situation, we might take you serious. But when you say "relative seniority", we and our MC are gonna just tune you out. Just like you would if we use the word "staple". Just my 2 cents.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody
 
Everyone is yelling but no one is listening. Can anyone answer the question that I asked a long time ago?

If "fair and equitable" can only mean relative seniority why wasn't "relative seniority" specified in the B/M legislation?

"Fair and equitable" does not mean relative seniority, no matter what anyone here or anywhere else says. As you said, if they had meant every merging of two unionized groups would be done according to relative seniority, they would have specified that in the law. What they did say is that each individual situation is unique, so the standard of "fair and equitable" was a broad based definition that could be adjusted to fit the totality of the situation. As to where that will take us here, who knows? But I would bet dollars to donuts that it will be neither relative seniority nor a staple.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody
 
Anyone who thinks pay isn't an issue in arbitration is uninformed. CAL is holding up the process in their merger because they are trying to gain an advantage in the SLI by demanding higher pay in the JCBA for their widebodies to offset the UAL widebody rates. AAI has the same attorney as CAL and I'm sure that is why all the talk of a JCBA. The Swapa contract doesn't allow for a reopener in an acquisition. No JCBA will occur. Swapa will address their contract issues with SWA and ALPA will not be party to those talks.

Play nice and enjoy the party you just got invited to. History has shown that rowdy guests promptly get kicked out of the SWA party.
 
Why you laughing that is what you guys tried didn't work then won't work now.

Max,

Perhaps it would serve you to look at the situation from another perspective.

It wasn't SWA who "tried something" with F9.

It was FAPA who tried something with SWA.

They tried to multiply their windfall by an order of magnitude. They attempted to transfer their seniority to a carrier with vastly superior pay, work rules and career expectations. That isn't a realistic expectation. The result of being unreasoanable is that F9 pilots missed out on great opportunity.
 
Please explain how pay played a role in the construction of the DAL/NWA list or the AWA/US list.

From the arbitrated decision of DAL/NWA -

"20 It is also appropriate to consider gains that flow from the merger. While it is true that both pilot forces are compensated relatively well, by comparison with the average U.S. airline, it is also the case that, on a
stand-alone basis, Northwest Pilots were paid less than their counterparts at Delta. Due to the success of the parties in bargaining a new Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (“JCBA”) effective October 30,
2008, (October 30, 2008, is the date of corporate closing of the merger.) Northwest Pilots enjoyed immediate benefits averaging 9.51% across the group. Delta characterizes this as equivalent to the value of one to two-and-one-half upgrades, depending on the equipment type, for each pre-merger pilot. (See DX-21 at 11-13; DX-37 at 2; Tr., 2549-55.)"

But wait, there's more. From the arbitrated decision in the AWA/USA dispatchers, in accordance with Allegheny-Mohawk -

" Most meaningful are the gains realized by West Dispatchers when operating under the US Airways labor agreement. It is, by most measures, the more generous document of the two. According to the record, AWA Dispatchers, prior to the merger, were the lowest paid among major carriers and worked the greatest number of annual hours.23 Following implementation of a transition agreement, work hours for AWA Dispatchers will be cut by 133 hours per year. Work days will be reduced from 10 to 8 hours.24 The East contract includes a profit sharing plan in addition to the 401(K) profit sharing; the West agreement has none. Wage rates under the U.S. Airways cba are more generous;AWA Dispatchers will reach top of scale in eleven years instead of fifteen and will enjoy wage gains ranging from 16% to 52%. 25 On the average, AWA Dispatchers will gain a 36% salary increase.
26 The West claim that similar gains might have been realized in renegotiating the AWA contract is speculative and ultimately unconvincing.
Finally, one must consider, in terms of fairness and equity, the resulting shape and impact of the merged seniority list. The equities, in this regard, favor the East group. As indicated earlier, the U.S. Airways Dispatchers are considerably more senior then their West counterparts. The arithmetic placement proposed by Local 542 would devitalize the existing Airways seniority list by granting substantial, and in some cases monumental seniority leaps that cannot be justified by the record in this case. For example, senior-most AWA Dispatcher Brenda Cozzen has an A.D. (occupational) date of January 1985. By the West proposal, she would be slotted directly above an East employee with almost six years greater seniority. This pattern is repeated down through position #81, where Dispatcher Lopez would gain more than ten years’ advantage over his counterpart, and so it continues through to the end of the list, with West employees receiving twelve, thirteen and fourteen year advantages. 28 As the East notes, 29 the junior-most West employee did not begin work as an AWA Dispatcher until November of 2005, after both execution and approval of the merger agreement.
In summary, based on these findings, the conclusion is that fairness and equity in this case militates strongly toward a date of hire list. On the one hand, this outcome may consign certain West employees to furlough and will, of course, make them more vulnerable, based on their relative seniority, to later displacements. But that is, after all, the essence of length-of-tenure based seniority, which, in this particular case, heavily favors the older U.S. Airways work force."

As I have always said, the totality of the situation will be considered, including the pre-acquisition pay and benefits and the subsequent 35% - 90% compensation increases for the AAI pilots.

Fraternally,

PapaWoody
 
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Why you laughing that is what you guys tried didn't work then won't work now. Relative seniority is fair. AT guys give up there upgrade and you win additional growth with our opportunities.

I'm laughing because, F9 cried like little Pu$$ies about our desire to staple their bankrupt a$$es to the bottom of our list. Flash forward, they (the F9 dudes) try the same thing months later to the Republic dudes. What is that Pot meet Kettle?

I don't think, I want you on my list if you are that dumb and can't figure this out.

By-the-way, you AT guys would be after the same thing (staple) if the shoe was on the other foot. Of course we would tell you about all you get from aquiring us and it would sound similar to BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, which is what I hear from Tranny, everyday.
 
I'm laughing because, F9 cried like little Pu$$ies about our desire to staple their bankrupt a$$es to the bottom of our list. Flash forward, they (the F9 dudes) try the same thing months later to the Republic dudes. What is that Pot meet Kettle?

I don't think, I want you on my list if you are that dumb and can't figure this out.

By-the-way, you AT guys would be after the same thing (staple) if the shoe was on the other foot. Of course we would tell you about all you get from aquiring us and it would sound similar to BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, which is what I hear from Tranny, everyday.


Whiskey for breakfast, huh?
 
From the arbitrated decision of DAL/NWA -

"20 It is also appropriate to consider gains that flow from the merger. While it is true that both pilot forces are compensated relatively well, by comparison with the average U.S. airline, it is also the case that, on a
stand-alone basis, Northwest Pilots were paid less than their counterparts at Delta. Due to the success of the parties in bargaining a new Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (“JCBA”) effective October 30,
2008, (October 30, 2008, is the date of corporate closing of the merger.) Northwest Pilots enjoyed immediate benefits averaging 9.51% across the group. Delta characterizes this as equivalent to the value of one to two-and-one-half upgrades, depending on the equipment type, for each pre-merger pilot. (See DX-21 at 11-13; DX-37 at 2; Tr., 2549-55.)"



Fraternally,

PapaWoody



You're a sneaky one aren't you Papa.

Regarding the NWA/DAL Decision. You didn't quote the actual arbitrators decision and his reasoning ..... Did you Papa ? It tells a different story. What you quoted was a small chunk of the DAL argument.

Why don't you post the decision and the Arbitrators reasoning ?

Nice Try :laugh:
 
You're a sneaky one aren't you Papa.

Regarding the NWA/DAL Decision. You didn't quote the actual arbitrators decision and his reasoning ..... Did you Papa ? It tells a different story. What you quoted was a small chunk of the DAL argument.

Why don't you post the decision and the Arbitrators reasoning ?

Nice Try :laugh:

I didn't quote the whole decision because that wasn't the point. Yes, DAL/NWA was basically a relative seniority award. However, the arbitrators came to that decision after weighing all the factors and determining that was appropriate, in that instance. One of the factors that they considered was the pay gains realized by the NWA pilots (which part of "appropriate to consider" do you not understand?), which contributed to DAL getting the longer end of the stick. My point, and I realized that it would be lost on you dicko, was that the AAI mantras of the "law requires relative seniority" and "pay differences don't matter" are invalid arguments and none of the recent arbitration decisions bears them out. If using logic is sneaky, then guilty. But maybe it's just over your head. :rolleyes:

PW

PS I notice you didn't bother referencing the AWA/USA dispatchers award, which was an arbitration decision between two seniority groups that directly referenced Allegheny/Mohawk, not ALPA merger policy. But then I didn't actually expect you to give credence to anything that contradicts your specious arguments. /shrug
 
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I didn't quote the whole decision because that wasn't the point. Yes, DAL/NWA was basically a relative seniority award. However, the arbitrators came to that decision after weighing all the factors and determining that was appropriate, in that instance. One of the factors that they considered was the pay gains realized by the NWA pilots (which part of "appropriate to consider" do you not understand?), which contributed to DAL getting the longer end of the stick. My point, and I realized that it would be lost on you dicko, was that the AAI mantras of the "law requires relative seniority" and "pay differences don't matter" are invalid arguments and none of the recent arbitration decisions bears them out. If using logic is sneaky, then guilty. But maybe it's just over your head. :rolleyes:

PW

PS I notice you didn't bother referencing the AWA/USA dispatchers award, which was an arbitration decision between two seniority groups that directly referenced Allegheny/Mohawk, not ALPA merger policy. But then I didn't actually expect you to give credence to anything that contradicts your specious arguments. /shrug



Wood,

You quoted DAL's argument. The arbitrator considered the pay issue and largely ignored it. How did the pay issue affect the decision Papa ? Hmmmmm ? Post it hear so we can read it.

The dispatcher decision is not relevant. It was ignored.

Nobody is going to take your upgrade from you. You're embarrassing yourself.
 
I really hope the teams are more reasonable than this outrageous flamebaiting or AWA/USAir here we come ... even worse ... SWA/Muse.
 
I will let out a little secret......AT pilots will keep their seats.



SWAPA and SWA have agreed to purchase new seats for all the AT airplanes. The old seats will be distributed to the AT pilots along with a stapler!


Remember, none of us knows how this will play out. Some of you need to relax and enjoy your Saturday.....because it might be one the last weekends that the Trannies enjoy at home for a while!!!! Just kidding....relax.
 
I noticed no one responded to why relative seniority wasn't specified in the B/M legislation. I am not surprised because we all know that relative is one way to combine lists but certainly not mandated by federal law as some of you falsely claim.

It is ludicrous to think that pay and work rules are not considered when combining lists. If they were not how do you think there could be any other solution than relative? The authors of the legislation realized that each case is unique and that all relevant factors should be looked at, which is why they did not specify that any particular formula be used. They did not just "forget" to add that in to the legislation.

To the SWA haters: You are putting words in our mouth when you claim we are expecting or asking for a straight staple. I have not heard that from anyone who actually works for us. F9 was unique and never really had a chance to have any meaningful discussion as to how to combine lists. Due to the timeline of that discussion there was only one way we could have come to an agreement; if a staple was agreed to. Our union is not empowered to agree to anything else without a vote, which we did not have time to do.

To the AAI guys: I don't blame you for trying for everything you can get. The only reason I post here is to try and inject some reason in to the discussion. SWA is a 10 billion dollar company that is buying a 1 billion dollar company (Fridays market cap). They are not equals. Some of you guys claim that what our company brings to the table is not relevant, then go on to say how your company brings Atlanta. If what our companies bring is not relevant, then the contracts we bring are, and ours is vastly superior. Either way an arbitrator looks at it, we bring better careers to the transaction. Again "windfall" can't just refer to seniority percentage. If it did there would be no reason to have an arbitrator decide anything, it would be a formula to be used in every case. I hope when this is over we can shake hands and have fun flying together for long and prosperous careers.
 

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