Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[funnyman12]

My guess it wont be DOH and it wont be relative sen either. Something in between the 2. My rationale leads me to believe there is a high probability that there may be some SWA guys very upset. I can't imagine an arbitrator ruling less than DOH.

 

[SWAdude]

My guess it wont be DOH and it wont be relative sen either. Something in between the 2. My rationale leads me to believe there is a high probability that there may be some SWA guys very upset. I can't imagine an arbitrator ruling less than DOH.

I can imagine an arbitrator ruling less than DOH. Much less in some circumstances. Our union realizes that none of their 5800 pilots will accept anything less. And will effectively communicate that to the AT MEC who will then work to minimize seniority adjustments their members will be required to accept because of the SWA pilots hard earned success with the industry leading contract (extremely better to AT's) that AT pilots will naturally acquire to have the opportunity to experience securing their financial future in ways there was little to no possibility of earning on their own.

We are not the only SWA union with these differences. The flight attendants, dispatchers and mechanics are rumbling these same sentiments.

 

[roughneck]

I really hope the teams are more reasonable than this outrageous flamebaiting or AWA/USAir here we come ... even worse ... SWA/Muse.

Amazing isn't it? Everyone seems to ignore the history. The Muse Air scenario will happen all over again if our two groups don't act rational. It doesn't need to go down like that. I hope it doesn't. Everyone needs to relax and let this work it self out.

 

[PapaWoody]

Wood,

You quoted DAL's argument. The arbitrator considered the pay issue and largely ignored it. How did the pay issue affect the decision Papa ? Hmmmmm ? Post it hear so we can read it.

The dispatcher decision is not relevant. It was ignored.

Nobody is going to take your upgrade from you. You're embarrassing yourself.

Dicko,

I am basically done going back and forth with you. Obviously, cogent arguments that pertain to relevancy in these proceedings (and in general) are lost on you. So be it. But since you obviously haven't been paying attention to my posts, just lashing out when you see my avatar, let me just let you in on a little secret - it would take a time machine to take my upgrade away from me. I imagine a favorable arbitration decision is all it would require to take yours from you. Good luck with that. See ya on the other side.

PW

PS What I quoted from the DAL/NWA was footnote 20, which was the arbitration panel's thoughts on the pay disparity which was one of Delta's arguments. And, yes, it was one of the factors that they considered in rendering the final list. That's what "appropriate to consider" means, since you obviously need it spelled out for you.

 

[Turtle21]

Only 35 pages...? Such a slooooow start to the discussions that what will live, and live, and live...

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Timeout:


Lots of people here that are taking themselves far too seriously. All that had been established here over and over again is that:


1. The Airtran guys feel like relative seniority is the only fair and equitable solution. They are sure that is what they will be awarded in arbitration.

2. The SWA guys feel that relative seniority would be a windfall for the Airtran guys given the age and contractual differances between the companys.

3. The Airtran guys don't feel that the contractual gains will be a factor in the arbitration and the SWA guys disagree.

Reality check:

Nothing is going to be solved on this forum. No one is going to change anyones mind.

This thing will get resolved and there is a good chance it will be in arbitration. There are 100s of ways that an arbitrator could look at this and for anyone who is not an attorney that specializes in airline RLA airline seniority list mergers in a post Bond McCaskill environment to predict an outcome is just silly.

That being said whatever the outcome of the SLI is the worst thing we can do long term for our collective carriers is to have this thing turn out like USAir/AWA. Soon we will all have to live in the same house and it will be far better if we choose to get along.

Ghetto

Just when the thread was becomming civil.

 

[Ty Webb]

I can imagine an arbitrator ruling less than DOH. Much less in some circumstances. Our union realizes that none of their 5800 pilots will accept anything less.

Let us know when you wake up and have your Cheerios. It doesn't matter what the SWA Pilots will accept, anymore than it matters what AT pilots will accept. Stupid comments like yours pretty much guarantee that it will go to Arbitration, and then it doesn't matter what you or I want or "will accept".

Sheesh.

 

[Jetjockey]

I can imagine an arbitrator ruling less than DOH. Much less in some circumstances. Our union realizes that none of their 5800 pilots will accept anything less. And will effectively communicate that to the AT MEC who will then work to minimize seniority adjustments their members will be required to accept because of the SWA pilots hard earned success with the industry leading contract (extremely better to AT's) that AT pilots will naturally acquire to have the opportunity to experience securing their financial future in ways there was little to no possibility of earning on their own.

We are not the only SWA union with these differences. The flight attendants, dispatchers and mechanics are rumbling these same sentiments.

I love the arrogance. It reminds me of United pilots in the early 90's.

 

[kwick]

Amazing isn't it? Everyone seems to ignore the history. The Muse Air scenario will happen all over again if our two groups don't act rational. It doesn't need to go down like that. I hope it doesn't. Everyone needs to relax and let this work it self out.[/QUOTE

Pound Sand, and try going by the law JackWagon!

 

[SWAdude]

I love the arrogance. It reminds me of United pilots in the early 90's.

Is speaking the truth arrogant? Your welcome by the way. Your contract is at regional levels.

Let us know when you wake up and have your Cheerios. It doesn't matter what the SWA Pilots will accept, anymore than it matters what AT pilots will accept. Stupid comments like yours pretty much guarantee that it will go to Arbitration, and then it doesn't matter what you or I want or "will accept".

Keep telling yourself how smart you are. My comments have nothing to do with whether or not this goes to arbitration. Is this the example of your level of intelligence?

You will be finding out soon enough that you didn't wake up one day with a 100% gain in pay and benefits without any sacrifice. You certainly don't have your head in the sand, its all the way up your arse.

The SWA pilots vote on an agreement. The AT pilots do not. Gee, who has more control? I know this is hard to understand, even with your Mensa level of intelligence, but you have been bought. You will be owned. Ultimately you have no control. There is no law that says we must integrate you into our seniority. The company would just like to do that.

Good luck. And it sounds like your union folks are going to be much more reasonable than you.

 

[zman]

Southwest will definitely not be the same after this merger. I think the animosity between these two groups will change this "new" airline for the worst, unfortunately. Everyone has different career expectations, for some its getting off reserve, others upgrading to captain slots. Then you have the people its all about the money and then there the guys that spending their time with their loved ones on the holidays is the most precious thing. Things to think about for people on both sides of the fence. For me I just hope it isn't a miserable place to work after with all this bitterness that's already building. Remember an the end we will have to share the same cockpits and the same airline.

 

[ivauir]

Let us know when you wake up and have your Cheerios. It doesn't matter what the SWA Pilots will accept, anymore than it matters what AT pilots will accept. Stupid comments like yours pretty much guarantee that it will go to Arbitration, and then it doesn't matter what you or I want or "will accept".

Sheesh.

This kind of attitude will destroy this airline.

 

[Jetjockey]

Your contract is at regional levels.

Talk to me after your first trip through the bankruptcy process.

 

[Lear70]

Watch the creative profanity, please.

/mod

 

[GuppyWN]

I love you guys.

Gup

 

[BlueBlood]

I love you more. Does that sound gay?

 

[Skybus]

Scarry to realize that everyone on here is trusted with peoples lives. If the average Joe the plumber followed this site it would be a sure cure to Amtrack's ills.

Bus

 

[Ty Webb]

Keep telling yourself how smart you are. My comments have nothing to do with whether or not this goes to arbitration. Is this the example of your level of intelligence?

My point, which you obviously missed, was that if your comments reflect the mindset of the pilots of SWA, it will go to arbitration for sure, because the difference in the the expectations of the two pilot groups is too vast.

The SWA pilots vote on an agreement. The AT pilots do not. Gee, who has more control?

There is no law that says we must integrate you into our seniority..

You seem to be about 20 pages behind in this discussion, perhaps you should learn more about it before wasting anymore keystrokes.

The fact that the SWA pilots vote on the ISL (Integrated Seniority List) doesn't give you more control, it just virtually guarantees it will go to arbitration (which is the opposite of control).

I hate to tell you this, Clarence Darrow, but there are a number of laws that say specifically that the two lists must be combined, as do covenants in our CBA and yours too.

That ought to bring you up to at least mid-October in this thread, Sporto.

And last, relax, buddy. You're going to blow a gasket over this. It's not that important in the scheme of things, and none of will have much say or control over it.

 

[Ty Webb]

Scarry to realize that everyone on here is trusted with peoples lives. If the average Joe the plumber followed this site it would be a sure cure to Amtrack's ills.

Bus

They would probably be alarmed in equal parts by both the ideas and the spelling.

 

[Aviator2010]

Here is my suggestion / prediction on the SLI. All AT First Officers be stapled with AT longevity pay. The Captains get 1 year SWA seniority for every 2 year of AT seniority and will be payprotected with AT longevity pay at their new position. I would guess about 100 AT Captains will stay Captains and the rest be spread amongst SWA First Officers. About 700 SWA First Officers would upgrade.

 

[Ty Webb]

This kind of attitude will destroy this airline.

What attitude? I'm simply stating that it doesn't matter what any of us are "willing" to accept, we will all have to accept it. Here it is again:

"It doesn't matter what the SWA Pilots will accept, anymore than it matters what AT pilots will accept".

 

[Ty Webb]

Here is my suggestion / prediction on the SLI. All AT First Officers be stapled with AT longevity pay. The Captains get 1 year SWA seniority for every 2 year of AT seniority and will be payprotected with AT longevity pay at their new position. I would guess about 100 AT Captains will stay Captains and the rest be spread amongst SWA First Officers. About 700 SWA First Officers would upgrade.

Wow- a "solution" that flouts current law, past precedent, and common sense.

You do realize, of course, that you're simply posting nonsense here to reinforce your own delusions? :laugh:

 

[ivauir]

Wow- a "solution" that flouts current law, past precedent, and common sense.

You do realize, of course, that you're simply posting nonsense here to reinforce your own delusions? :laugh:

Ty,

This is what I mean about your attitude:

You bitterly attack anyone who references an SLI that is less than relative seniority. Talk about delusions!

There was absolutely nothing in the proposed solution that defies any aspect of the law. There is, in fact, precedence to support such a SLI (Alaska/Jet America, Transtar/SWA).

It is like you think you can affect the out come by your outrageous posturing.

If your pilot group shows up demanding to win in every category of career expectations you will either ruin this airline or destroy this deal. I am confident in which choice Gary Kelly will make. I suggest you take a large chill pill, sprinkle in some humility and stop spouting off like you know everything about AGM or B/M.

This is a great opportunity for you. Please don't blow it.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,

This is what I mean about your attitude:

You bitterly attack anyone who references an SLI that is less than relative seniority. Talk about delusions!

I'm not "bitterly attacking" anyone, even if they are operating way outside of the realm of likely outcomes, as the previous poster was. A poster, btw, who has just joined flightinfo and this was his first post (hmmm- what a coincidence).

There was absolutely nothing in the proposed solution that defies any aspect of the law. There is, in fact, precedence to support such a SLI (Alaska/Jet America, Transtar/SWA).

Whatever gets you through the night.

I don't think there is anything to be gained here. All of your points have long since been refuted, some by people much more objective than you or I.

 

[Lear70]

Here is my suggestion / prediction on the SLI. All AT First Officers be stapled with AT longevity pay. The Captains get 1 year SWA seniority for every 2 year of AT seniority and will be payprotected with AT longevity pay at their new position. I would guess about 100 AT Captains will stay Captains and the rest be spread amongst SWA First Officers. About 700 SWA First Officers would upgrade.

If you want to anger and embitter every, single pilot at AirTran? Sure, go with that. You want to talk about Morris/SWA, the above example would certainly ENSURE animosity and "red book/green book" types of attitudes for DECADES to come.

This is what I mean about your attitude:

You bitterly attack anyone who references an SLI that is less than relative seniority. Talk about delusions!

Bitterly? Really? I don't get that from his post AT ALL.

I certainly have discussed solutions other than "relative seniority", and find the above post on the issue to be EXTREMELY INFLAMMATORY towards AirTran pilots. So much so that it borders on flame bait. Ty actually responded pretty calmly considering the post in question.

Any discussion on your side about stapling ANY large portion of the pilot group is going to be seen by the AirTran pilots just as negatively as "relative seniority" is seen by Southwest pilots. If someone can't understand that, then I would submit that they are not capable of taking an impartial look at this scenario.

There was absolutely nothing in the proposed solution that defies any aspect of the law. There is, in fact, precedence to support such a SLI (Alaska/Jet America, Transtar/SWA).

Both of which were before Bond/McCaskill, and neither of which involved the combination of two, profitable, LARGE airlines that were considered "Major" airlines. Therefore, those comparisons are invalid.

Thank GOD I know enough members of the Merger Committee well enough to know they would NEVER agree to anything NEAR a staple like is proposed above, and that it will go to arbitration long before discussions get anywhere close to that point.

 

[Cometman]

If you want to anger and embitter every, single pilot at AirTran? Sure, go with that. You want to talk about Morris/SWA, the above example would certainly ENSURE animosity and "red book/green book" types of attitudes for DECADES to come.


Bitterly? Really? I don't get that from his post AT ALL.

I certainly have discussed solutions other than "relative seniority", and find the above post on the issue to be EXTREMELY INFLAMMATORY towards AirTran pilots. So much so that it borders on flame bait. Ty actually responded pretty calmly considering the post in question.

Any discussion on your side about stapling ANY large portion of the pilot group is going to be seen by the AirTran pilots just as negatively as "relative seniority" is seen by Southwest pilots. If someone can't understand that, then I would submit that they are not capable of taking an impartial look at this scenario.


Both of which were before Bond/McCaskill, and neither of which involved the combination of two, profitable, LARGE airlines that were considered "Major" airlines. Therefore, those comparisons are invalid.

Thank GOD I know enough members of the Merger Committee well enough to know they would NEVER agree to anything NEAR a staple like is proposed above, and that it will go to arbitration long before discussions get anywhere close to that point.

With all due respect. If you consider Airtran a LARGE Airline, what would you consider Southwest?

 

[shootr]

Any discussion on your side about stapling ANY large portion of the pilot group is going to be seen by the AirTran pilots just as negatively as "relative seniority" is seen by Southwest pilots. If someone can't understand that, then I would submit that they are not capable of taking an impartial look at this scenario.

An interesting quote that can be taken two ways...

 

[scoreboardII]

Ty, you better hope it goes a little better for SWA pilots than your "expert opinion" or it will go to a "Morris solution", go look that up.

And Ty, you still haven't answered your premise that the SWAPA CBA will be changed and how, so what say you?

 

[Dash Power]

I get the bitterness. I get the arrogance. I get the fear. Who wouldn't want their cake and eat it too.

Career expectations for a pilot starts with DOH. Then you go to pay, benefits, seniority, and other QOL issues (vacation, schedule, work rules, etc)

You use these elements to determine "fair and equitable". The pay for an AT captain is similar to an SWA fo. SWA benefits are better to much better than AT. Other QOL issues are much, much better than AT. The gains for the AT guys up to this point are more than substantial. They are life changing. So what is equitable for the SWA pilots.
The only issue left is seniority.

There must be balance in the arbitrators eyes. And the AT pilots have nothing to bring as an enhancement to the table.

I read the fear in some of the AT pilots on this board. You need not be fearful of losing relative seniority. You are enormously better off being purchased by SWA.

 

[kwick]

Here is my suggestion / prediction on the SLI. All AT First Officers be stapled with AT longevity pay. The Captains get 1 year SWA seniority for every 2 year of AT seniority and will be payprotected with AT longevity pay at their new position. I would guess about 100 AT Captains will stay Captains and the rest be spread amongst SWA First Officers. About 700 SWA First Officers would upgrade.

Keep Dreaming!