Why do ASA pilots want PBS?

[Dannone]

I don't think complaints are necessarily relative to seniority. Life was way better at ASA 2 years ago and I have gone up a little in seniority. Even the most senior guys have seen their QOL go down. The reason PBS passed at ASA is because the schedules have gotten worse and worse over the past few years. Gotten to the point that even 4 on 3 off is hard to get. PBS seems like it may give more flexibility. Who knows how it will actually work.

 

[crj567]

You are missing the language in the document. It will NOTHING like CAL's. Unlike theirs which was forced on them, ASA was under no obligation to negotiate for PBS. Much better environment to get stuff for it than in contract talks where BOTH sides must show good faith. It would be far to easy to have PBS crammed up our collective butts by the company in contract talks. So the gamble is, get the right system in now and then fight to patch up holes later on. It is far difficult to get a release to strike today especially over a bidding interface. We could end parked indefinitely.

All the chest thumpers railing about the union bent over, yadda, yadda... Don't have a clue as to how the game gets played. The RLA slnts the game towards the company heavily. There are rules and the union can't just do anything it wants.

As far as vacation, these guys telling me that they will only work four days and get guarantee are likely pulling our legs. Will you be able to get the entire month off with PBS here? No but you'll still be able to stretch it two or two and half weeks.[/QUOTE]


-"Misleading" is about the best way I can describe this post. Considering a 75 hour guarantee is what people expect, would you care to explain how you plan to stretch this to two-and-a-half weeks (given the complete crap trips we have had lately,) and what you would get paid?

-Not too hard to see these schedules through rose-colored glasses when you never fly-is it?

 

[CFI2766]

I don't think complaints are necessarily relative to seniority. Life was way better at ASA 2 years ago and I have gone up a little in seniority. Even the most senior guys have seen their QOL go down. The reason PBS passed at ASA is because the schedules have gotten worse and worse over the past few years. Gotten to the point that even 4 on 3 off is hard to get. PBS seems like it may give more flexibility. Who knows how it will actually work.

Come on man, 4 on 3 off is not 'hard' to get if you are a lineholder under the current system at ASA. No question the reserves are getting killed, and, frankly, there appear to more JM assignments than in other times, but no one is getting awarded lines of 5 on 2 off.

We have the best work rules of any PBS in the industry. We are two steps ahead of Delta, and several steps ahead of Continental. The PBS system gives more flexibility than the current line bidding system. Also, VACATION is not killed with ASA's PBS software. It takes a pretty good understanding of how it works, but take a look at the Vacation Low option and the virtual credits. You will still be able to accomplish a killer vacation, or, make a killing on your paycheck.

 

[CFI2766]

-"Misleading" is about the best way I can describe this post. Considering a 75 hour guarantee is what people expect, would you care to explain how you plan to stretch this to two-and-a-half weeks (given the complete crap trips we have had lately,) and what you would get paid?

-Not too hard to see these schedules through rose-colored glasses when you never fly-is it?[/QUOTE]


Yes. Do it right, as in actually read the documentation, and you will still get your guarantee.

Never fly? I'm going to bet the guy you are quoting flies more than you do. Try again.

 

[buscap]

As far as vacation, these guys telling me that they will only work four days and get guarantee are likely pulling our legs. Will you be able to get the entire month off with PBS here? No but you'll still be able to stretch it two or two and half weeks.[/QUOTE]


-"Misleading" is about the best way I can describe this post. Considering a 75 hour guarantee is what people expect, would you care to explain how you plan to stretch this to two-and-a-half weeks (given the complete crap trips we have had lately,) and what you would get paid?

-Not too hard to see these schedules through rose-colored glasses when you never fly-is it?

You may be right about ASA PBS sucking butt, but :laugh: you may also be wrong and the point is you just don't know yet. The thing got voted in and we're gonna use it, like it or not. The Express Jet guys will have a chance to see it in action. We can then make improvements or maybe even chuck it.

Now your mistrust of the system is most likely based on the company's abuse of some of the weak contract language we presently have, and that is a valid frustration. But none of us has any reason to know if ASA PBS sucks at this time. Perhaps you don't like the 3 practice bid cycle thing, but it's really not a big deal.

Beeeechhhh Beeeechhh Beeeeccchhh all you want, but you gotta admit, it's not an informed opinion yet. Talk to us in six months. I'll either be beeeeeching right along with you or we'll be glad the system doesn't suck more than what we have now.

 

[Tarzan]

-Not too hard to see these schedules through rose-colored glasses when you never fly-is it?

Who gets away with not flying these days? Even Hall has go fly. BTW, I block over 85 a month and credit over 100. Pretty cheap shot there, Spoon.

 

[ASA Captain]

(3.86 x 11) + 28 = 70.46

That is all that is required to get a legal line with vacation low and virtual credits to 4. You will get paid guarantee because if you get a legal line (within window) you get guarantee.

This means 19-20 days off. If you do allow single days off you could stretch that vacation block to nearly three weeks. And, if you're smart, you will bid trips with higher credit than min day and shave off another day or two required to get you to 70-75.

 

[the palm]

Some people will figure out how to manipulate PBS to their advantage and some people won't. My guess is those that don't bother to figure it out will get screwed and complain.

 

[Dannone]

Considering I used to hold 3 on 4 off now to get a pure 4 on 3 off without working at least 1 weak of 5 or 6 days every month is impossible, I will say it again QOL at ASA has gone backwards since they figured out every loop hole in our contract. Remember when we were all so happy about max 4 red arrow days a month?? I was trying to explain why PBS passed. That is why, I must have heard a hundred people say we are gonna get it anyway and the lines can't get worse than they are now. The question was why did ASA vote in PBS? That is the answer. We have a chance to gain some things back now, but only if all the groups involved get on the same page. Stop thinking about me, do what's best for us, and maybe the whole industry gets better by default!!!!

 

[mckpickle]

Would you guys mind sharing what sort of "rules" you have in your PBS? I'm currious. Thanks.

 

[crj567]

Would you guys mind sharing what sort of "rules" you have in your PBS? I'm currious. Thanks.

Well-

If you take in to account that nearly every paragraph is preceded by stuff like:

-"In the interest of cost-effectiveness, staffing levels, and operational requirements, the company may XXXXXXXXXX"

-There are very few effective rules and restrictions. What you have to go by is not the intent, but the many, many, many exclusions and outs we have given the company.

-I can assure you that the company will easily find tons of "loopholes" in this agreement-so many that I would almost say we would be as well off without an agreement at all.

-We wasted millions in dues crafting an effectively useless agreement. In my judgement, this PBS agreement is by far the most open-ended and useless contract I have ever seen.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Yup, like the rest of the contract. Plenty of 'opt-out' provisions in virtually every section. But look at it this way, the crack team had five years to work on their golf tans

 

[Nevets]

y'all don't forget about our 1 percent pay raises because of PBS! oh, and our min day goes up from 3.75 to 3.86 I think it was

By the way, when SKW tried to buy XJT two years ago, they told us PBS equated to a 4% concession.

I have been turning 1 week of vacation into 5 weeks of vacation the past 2 years here at ASA. That isn't going to happen anymore with PBS. I voted FOR PBS knowing that. I understand the reality we are under in this competitive environment. It was nice while it lasted, but I can't really expect to get 20 weeks of vacation and still work for a profitable company...Reality sucks sometimes.....

Do you feel we get paid enough or fairly for what we do?

To the XJT pilots, let me clue you in a little bit about how things work here at SKYW INC.
We have union and non union pilots. The minute the ASA pilots don't play ball, or if ASA doesn't control costs, then airplanes will be transferred to SKYW and ASA will furlough. Thats why we have PBS, thats why 700's were transferred to SKYW when we were in contract negotiations. PBS is an attempt to help the company control costs, and keep ASA costs down. Hopefully, XJT will win the seniority issue and combine all 3 carriers, otherwise, ASA and SKYW will continue to be whipsawed against each other, and the union carrier never wins that fight.

And why do more people don't know or understand this?

SKYW Inc. has been good for ASA. We had it really rough here before they came. ALPA couldn't help us with our prior managements.

It's in our best interest to work together and try to become leaders in the industry.

SKYW Inc. could be good for all three of us if they would follow the clear intent of our contract. Anyways, its not ALPA's responsibility to do management's job. If you have a crappy or money losing operation, its management's fault, not ALPA's. Now lets work together for one list and really become leaders in the industry and profession!

God Bless California, land of Reagan!

I'm not going to argue about not getting brand scope anymore....It isn't going to happen...I'm accepting it and moving on. Let's compete and get as much as we can then while you sit on the sidelines and cry like a baby...:crying:

Curious, how is brand scope different from mainline scoping in all jet flying in regards to you being against that?

You're pipe dreaming! I don't care what your MEC tells you all about not knowing about the deal beforehand and that it violates your contract. Of course they have to tell you that and appear to be empathetic to the pilots concerns. They most definitely knew about the deal and won't be going to court over anything. How much do you have and what do you own? You want to make a wager?

The ASA pilots said the same thing when Skywest, Inc bought them. Pilots at ASA said it's a violation of their contract not to be one list with Skywest. Their MEC made a few comments and did nothing.

Either your MEC sold you out or they realize they can't do squat about it. I'll let you know if I see your MEC on Jerry's houseboat at Lake Powell. Southern Utah is pretty nice most of the year you know.

This will be for lawyers to decide. I'm sure both sides are geared up for it and we will just have to wait and see. Hopefully we can all be part on ONE big happy Skywest Airlines company!

That is why, I must have heard a hundred people say we are gonna get it anyway and the lines can't get worse than they are now.

I've heard that sentiment at XJT. The QOL has gone down in the last couple of years. Now with integration with only ASA, many people say it can't get any worse than it is now anyways.

 

[wms]

......

 

[wms]

Lets not forget.
1. No Initial Line Improvement Window
2. No open time
3. Can't see what you are bidding on. If you are a commuter and want 4 4day trips, it could give you all 2 days and day trips.

If you are a senior guy at XJT with 4 weeks of vacation, you can turn it into 12 weeks per year. That is an entire 3 months off people!

Numbers 2 and 3 are wrong.

We've had some decent trips, but crew planning builds them into miserable lines. I did not want 400 relief lines, but I can do better than crew planning at building these trips into a tolerable schedule. The thing that sold it for me was dropping/picking up portions of trips, limits on 4-day trips, stricter limits on reserves, resevres bidding all their days off, etc. And like always, if they use it to mess with QOL it affects performance and things turn around again.

In the fall I was on reserve, now I'm very senior and I liked it in both situations. It's the first thing I've ever voted in favor of and I'll figure out how to use it and make it work for me, which is an option I didn't have before.