Wheels up

[BentOver]

If you add in constant international flying, airline flying can be a bit more difficult givin the language differences, different regulations and procedures. Not to mention 121 seems to be a bit more " under the microscope" than 91/135... I don't recall the FAA ever showing up to do a line check at NjA, but have had 2 or 3 FAA guys in the Jumpseat over the past 6 months..( on 6+ hr flights to boot) at the airline. Factor in airlines are not simply starting up and taxiing out from an FBO at uncontrolled fields. We have to deal with ATC, ramp controls, tug drivers, FA's getting their safety briefings done before we reach the end of the runway. EtOPs paper work, load close outs, Maintemaince sign offs, prelim and final numbers...

Never really consider a pop up trip to an uncontrolled field all that difficult at NJA.. But I tell guys all the time that getting an ASE to some Podunk field in NC was fun because it was different..

IMO airline flying is more challenging when you factor in everything.

 

[Photoflight]

If you add in constant international flying, airline flying can be a bit more difficult givin the language differences, different regulations and procedures. Not to mention 121 seems to be a bit more " under the microscope" than 91/135... I don't recall the FAA ever showing up to do a line check at NjA, but have had 2 or 3 FAA guys in the Jumpseat over the past 6 months..( on 6+ hr flights to boot) at the airline. Factor in airlines are not simply starting up and taxiing out from an FBO at uncontrolled fields. We have to deal with ATC, ramp controls, tug drivers, FA's getting their safety briefings done before we reach the end of the runway. EtOPs paper work, load close outs, Maintemaince sign offs, prelim and final numbers...

Never really consider a pop up trip to an uncontrolled field all that difficult at NJA.. But I tell guys all the time that getting an ASE to some Podunk field in NC was fun because it was different..

IMO airline flying is more challenging when you factor in everything.

Except for possibly line checks, All of that stuff you listed happens in a fractional flying environment as well......

 

[2000Easyguy]

If you add in constant international flying, airline flying can be a bit more difficult givin the language differences, different regulations and procedures. Not to mention 121 seems to be a bit more " under the microscope" than 91/135... I don't recall the FAA ever showing up to do a line check at NjA, but have had 2 or 3 FAA guys in the Jumpseat over the past 6 months..( on 6+ hr flights to boot) at the airline. Factor in airlines are not simply starting up and taxiing out from an FBO at uncontrolled fields. We have to deal with ATC, ramp controls, tug drivers, FA's getting their safety briefings done before we reach the end of the runway. EtOPs paper work, load close outs, Maintemaince sign offs, prelim and final numbers...

Never really consider a pop up trip to an uncontrolled field all that difficult at NJA.. But I tell guys all the time that getting an ASE to some Podunk field in NC was fun because it was different..

IMO airline flying is more challenging when you factor in everything.

wow, all sounds very challenging! Gotta love the guys that turn every leg into a mission to Mars!

 

[pilotyip]

I've done both as well and I disagree with your disagreement.

I think fractional flying has been the most dynamic and challenging type of flying in my career.

Then you haven't done auto parts on-demand out of KYIP. Both 121 airline and fractional flying are in world apart from flying cargo on-demand in 50 year old airplanes with FMS, GPS, or even auto pilots.

Fits here, ole to the freight dawg, my apologies to Bill Shakespeare

That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not fly in that man?s company
That fears his fellowship to fly with us.
He that outlives this night, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when MMIO, LRD, are nam?d,
And rouse him at the name of a life flown aged out junk
He that shall live this night, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say ?To-morrow is Clear and a Million.?
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say ?These wounds I had on my 3rd load.?
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he?ll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did those days. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words-
Mar, huck, and Pcr, pilotyip, spooky 2 and con pilot,
Capo, j9, and all the Lear driving variants,
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb?red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And The day we flew shall ne?er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of freight dawgs;
For he to-day that shares this godforsaken profession with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne?er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen on the ground now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs?d they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us on Starving Pilot's pay.

 

[Photoflight]

What are you talking about?

Freight flying is the easiest....especially on demand.

You don't have to worry about making a go/ no-go decision.
Don't have to worry about deviating around weather
Don't have to worry about weight limits or balance limits.

Just start the motors and don't hit the mountains.

 

[jetlag7]

Actually yip, I have flown freight.

Life of a freight dawg has it's own set of unique challenges. It certainly was the most hazardous time in my career (marked by the number of friends who lost their lives during that period) but I was too young and inexperienced to fully understand how dangerous it really was. (Photo's post nails-down what my mindset as a 1500-hr 20-something year old freight dawg was back in those days)

What I do today is infinitely safer, but I still believe it to be the most challenging.

 

[misdemeanors]

"IMO airline flying is more challenging when you factor in everything" by "Bent Over"

Dude,

Are you serious? The airlines do almost everything for you, including cleaning the plane, putting food/drinks on the aircraft, packing the bags, fueling the aircraft, scheduling hotels, and taking care of expenses on the road. Oh I forgot to mention, 121 OPS generally only fly to a handfull of airports that are "approved" in your OPS Specs, and most likely they are Part 139 airports as well. And I bet you don't get dispatched to airports with Lat/Long coordinates and your sitting in some FBO looking at WSI weather reports wondering if you can "get in there"... So don't feed us that b/s...

91K/135 is equally as challenging, if not more challenging than 121 operations. I've done both extensively, and sometimes wish I had the luxury of 121 flying.

 

[outerfix]

It doesn't really matter what type of flying is harder, the only thing that matters is how much money is generated. Are major league ballplayers ten times better then minor league ballplayers? No, but they generate ten times the revenue. Same with plastic surgeons vs. family doctors and 747 drivers vs. King Air Drivers.

 

[jetlag7]

It doesn't really matter what type of flying is harder, the only thing that matters is how much money is generated. Are major league ballplayers ten times better then minor league ballplayers? No, but they generate ten times the revenue. Same with plastic surgeons vs. family doctors and 747 drivers vs. King Air Drivers.

The surgeon charges more for his services because he has experience and training his clients are willing to pay a premium for. (supply and demand). The "revenue" he earns for his practice does not drive the cost of his services. You're using circular logic in that instance.

Revenue has nothing to do with the equation. It boils down to what the client will pay for.

If the client is comfortable with his wife and kids flying in a Wheels Up King Air with a "fresh out of Riddle" 20-something rookie behind the yoke, then there really is no incentive for that operation to pay anything better than mediocre salaries.

 

[SharkRider]

The surgeon charges more for his services because he has experience and training his clients are willing to pay a premium for. (supply and demand). The "revenue" he earns for his practice does not drive the cost of his services. You're using circular logic in that instance.

Revenue has nothing to do with the equation. It boils down to what the client will pay for.

If the client is comfortable with his wife and kids flying in a Wheels Up King Air with a "fresh out of Riddle" 20-something rookie behind the yoke, then there really is no incentive for that operation to pay anything better than mediocre salaries.

I don't think there are any 20yr old Riddle Rats at Wheels up

 

[t-bone]

If you add in constant international flying, airline flying can be a bit more difficult givin the language differences, different regulations and procedures. Not to mention 121 seems to be a bit more " under the microscope" than 91/135... I don't recall the FAA ever showing up to do a line check at NjA, but have had 2 or 3 FAA guys in the Jumpseat over the past 6 months..( on 6+ hr flights to boot) at the airline. Factor in airlines are not simply starting up and taxiing out from an FBO at uncontrolled fields. We have to deal with ATC, ramp controls, tug drivers, FA's getting their safety briefings done before we reach the end of the runway. EtOPs paper work, load close outs, Maintemaince sign offs, prelim and final numbers...

Never really consider a pop up trip to an uncontrolled field all that difficult at NJA.. But I tell guys all the time that getting an ASE to some Podunk field in NC was fun because it was different..

IMO airline flying is more challenging when you factor in everything.

Really? ATC, ramp control, FA briefings, paperwork and maintenance sign offs are difficult? I guess the ATC I work with is different than yours. I guess coordinating my own DEICE is easier than ramp control. I guess giving my own briefings prior to engine start is easy when the pax just want to go. I guess we don't deal with maintenance and the ensuing paperwork.

Your experience in the 91/135 world seems to be different than mine. Try being the one to explain directly to the pax why there is a delay when everyone else told him not to expect anything. Try being the one to explain to the passenger why the airplane is perfectly safe even with an MEL'd item. Try coordinating a potential weather diversion when you have the security on board for a foreign dignitary who is behind you on a different ATC frequency.

The easiest part of my job is flying the airplane.

 

[BentOver]

"IMO airline flying is more challenging when you factor in everything" by "Bent Over"

Dude,

Are you serious? The airlines do almost everything for you, including cleaning the plane, putting food/drinks on the aircraft, packing the bags, fueling the aircraft, scheduling hotels, and taking care of expenses on the road. Oh I forgot to mention, 121 OPS generally only fly to a handfull of airports that are "approved" in your OPS Specs, and most likely they are Part 139 airports as well. And I bet you don't get dispatched to airports with Lat/Long coordinates and your sitting in some FBO looking at WSI weather reports wondering if you can "get in there"... So don't feed us that b/s...

91K/135 is equally as challenging, if not more challenging than 121 operations. I've done both extensively, and sometimes wish I had the luxury of 121 flying.

Fractionals provide weather, dispatch releases, flight planning etc.. Just like the airlines.... Sorry if I don't think coffee, ice and papers was all that challenging. And taking 4 minutes to dirt devil the carpet or throw the trash bag on the ramp is hardly a challenge.

Not insinuating ATC, and radio calls to ramp controls are challenging. What I'm saying is there are a lot more moving parts to pushing on time, and correctly at major airports without screwing up. Especially at international airports with language barriers. Sorry, but pulling out of the FBO on the other side of the airport, or taxiing out at some Podunk airport with no tower didn't come as all that difficult.

At my airline we pull up our own release, (not from a BB while sitting in the FBO lounge) pull up our own WSI style print outs, and use LAT/ LONG coordinates while plotting for flight across the Pacific. Also plot ETP's..

The interesting thing about Fractionals is the variety of airport combinations flown to. But i don't see the number of moving parts having to work in unison at the fractional as I do at the airlines...( not including behind the scenes catering, rental cars etc.. That places like NJA have software for)

tBOne, have you ever flown 121 long haul internationa? If your experience is primarily 91/135/91k. You should probably save your comments for things you have knowledge of...

2000Easyguy......sorry I forgot this is FI and the type of people I'm dealing with... I suppose you make assumptions about every one you meet based on a few lines on a web forum.

I'll save my comments for the NJA discussion and Majors forums.... I forgot that the fractional guys have such a chip on their shoulder about the work they do and how dare anyone have a difference of opinion about how difficult it is to brief a few passengers about a delay. I guess 260 passengers boarding a plane when the gate agents decide its time, but there will most likely be a plane swap due to maintenance issues is a breeze since we just turn left.

Yes, operating for Wheels Up is going to be very challenging, they should be paid 300k and far surpass any airline guy. Proceed with your discussion.

 

[t-bone]

Fractionals provide weather, dispatch releases, flight planning etc.. Just like the airlines.... Sorry if I don't think coffee, ice and papers was all that challenging. And taking 4 minutes to dirt devil the carpet or throw the trash bag on the ramp is hardly a challenge.

Not insinuating ATC, and radio calls to ramp controls are challenging. What I'm saying is there are a lot more moving parts to pushing on time, and correctly at major airports without screwing up. Especially at international airports with language barriers. Sorry, but pulling out of the FBO on the other side of the airport, or taxiing out at some Podunk airport with no tower didn't come as all that difficult.

At my airline we pull up our own release, (not from a BB while sitting in the FBO lounge) pull up our own WSI style print outs, and use LAT/ LONG coordinates while plotting for flight across the Pacific. Also plot ETP's..

The interesting thing about Fractionals is the variety of airport combinations flown to. But i don't see the number of moving parts having to work in unison at the fractional as I do at the airlines...( not including behind the scenes catering, rental cars etc.. That places like NJA have software for)

tBOne, have you ever flown 121 long haul internationa? If your experience is primarily 91/135/91k. You should probably save your comments for things you have knowledge of...

2000Easyguy......sorry I forgot this is FI and the type of people I'm dealing with... I suppose you make assumptions about every one you meet based on a few lines on a web forum.

I'll save my comments for the NJA discussion and Majors forums.... I forgot that the fractional guys have such a chip on their shoulder about the work they do and how dare anyone have a difference of opinion about how difficult it is to brief a few passengers about a delay. I guess 260 passengers boarding a plane when the gate agents decide its time, but there will most likely be a plane swap due to maintenance issues is a breeze since we just turn left.

Yes, operating for Wheels Up is going to be very challenging, they should be paid 300k and far surpass any airline guy. Proceed with your discussion.

Lol...

 

[gunfyter]

300k? Why so low?

 

[jetlag7]

I don't think there are any 20yr old Riddle Rats at Wheels up

That was my point.

They will populate the pilot ranks with whatever they are willing to invest the money for.

If they feel they can operate with inexperienced "time builders" then a sub-par pay structure is what they will offer.

 

[pilotyip]

That was my point.

They will populate the pilot ranks with whatever they are willing to invest the money for.

If they feel they can operate with inexperienced "time builders" then a sub-par pay structure is what they will offer.

I remember NJ back in the late 90's 2500 TT and you got a job flying as F/o
for 30K a year. I know a guy got hired there with less than 1000 fixed wing time.

 

[BlueNose]

I remember NJ back in the late 90's 2500 TT and you got a job flying as F/o
for 30K a year. I know a guy got hired there with less than 1000 fixed wing time.

I remember speaking with a NetJets recruiter in 98. It was pay for train (pay for the interview sim, too, if I remember correctly), captains made something like 50K a year. I laughed at him and walked away. Thought that was a great decision until '07, then I had to second guess myself. But who could know? I wonder how many NJ guys on here so indignant about others dragging down the profession took the job under those late 90's terms?

 

[johnsonrod]

How many former Avantair pilots hired so far?

What's the latest news? Are there specific bases already set-up in the Northeast (TEB or BED)?

 

[CUBMAN]

Any info on where to send stuff for wheels up?

 

[AeroBoy]

Any info on where to send stuff for wheels up?

Gama Charters (former Flight Services Group)