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1000s were attracted to aviation because of the pay, lifestyle, and benefits of the 121 world during the regulated years. Very few were able to get there except for primarily military pilots and some lucky general aviation folks. What destroyed 121 compensation was the regional industry (inexpensive way to gain experience), bankruptcies, deregulation resulting in low cost upstarts (an abundance of experienced pilots from the previous category, Braniff, Old Continental, Eastern to fill the new seats.), and several economic downturns where furloughed pilots went to the aforementioned jobs. It will be a long time before the tide turns. I wouldn't expend too much energy on this. There will always be someone willing to do your job for less as long as it is relatively easy to become minimally qualified.[/QUOTE]

Been there, done that! .......Not pretty, but that's the way it is. The only observation I would make is that the tide is about to change, and it will change very quickly.
 
Fishman, I have to admit, these guys make sense

10/250 is probably not gonna work? It will be much higher by the time they go line by line through the contract?

Other union frac guys, take heed at what we are going through!!!!!!!!


It will........happen to you! Why?????

Cmon sillies!!!!!!! JH will need a new job after he leaves "Sweat Jets"!!!!
 
fischman said:
I agree. There are plenty of pilots willing to work for peanuts. My attempt is to help others see their self worth. When enough pilots won't accept $70k jobs, salaries will go up. We are getting there in the 121 world, but I am concerned for the 135 world. Where are new pilots going to get their 1500TT to get to the airlines? What are they willing to do to, at what price to get the 1500? That's right. Work for peanuts.

We are skilled laborers folks. Know what your skills are worth.

I prefer the new fangled horseless carriages, but they cost money.
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Spoken like a Fat Cat fractional pilot.:blush:

In this case, "peanuts" is a relative term. If you were a kid coming out of flight school and half your friends couldn't find jobs in or out of aviation, how good would 70K sound for flying an airplane? When employers can no longer find willing candidates, salaries will go up, but that will attract more people to the industry which will again put downward pressure on salaries. If the need becomes greater than supply, we'll get whatever we ask for. Until then, the current pilot job market is what it is. You can't expect to get a windfall for market conditions that haven't occurred yet. 10/250 is a pipe dream as is 180K for pt 135 King Air captain. If those numbers ever become a reality, flight schools will be jammed packed with new meat willing to cut your throat. Count on it.
 
Yup, unbelievably there are pilots out there ( seems to be a lot of NJA pilots) who think its easy to find a high paying aviation job....
 
I find it funny with all of this money bickering days off a month haven't been discussed.

70K a year for a King Air PIC working with 5 hard days off a month....not so hot.
70K a year for a King Air PIC work with a scheduled 16+ days off a month....not so bad.

QOL isn't 100 % about how big your paycheck is....and maybe that is why we are in this mess.
 
X-rated said:
Spoken like a Fat Cat fractional pilot.:blush:

In this case, "peanuts" is a relative term. If you were a kid coming out of flight school and half your friends couldn't find jobs in or out of aviation, how good would 70K sound for flying an airplane? When employers can no longer find willing candidates, salaries will go up, but that will attract more people to the industry which will again put downward pressure on salaries. If the need becomes greater than supply, we'll get whatever we ask for. Until then, the current pilot job market is what it is. You can't expect to get a windfall for market conditions that haven't occurred yet. 10/250 is a pipe dream as is 180K for pt 135 King Air captain. If those numbers ever become a reality, flight schools will be jammed packed with new meat willing to cut your throat. Count on it.
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Meow...
 
If those numbers ever become a reality, flight schools will be jammed packed with new

Well, unless somebody leads the way, that will never happen.

It has to start somewhere?

It stymies me that you guys aren't yelling "Go Netjets"!!!!

Didn't Flex and Options both get raises after our 2005 contract?

At least we are fighting for a better life, you should be grateful for that alone?
 
X-rated said:
Spoken like a Fat Cat fractional pilot.:blush:

In this case, "peanuts" is a relative term. If you were a kid coming out of flight school and half your friends couldn't find jobs in or out of aviation, how good would 70K sound for flying an airplane? When employers can no longer find willing candidates, salaries will go up, but that will attract more people to the industry which will again put downward pressure on salaries. If the need becomes greater than supply, we'll get whatever we ask for. Until then, the current pilot job market is what it is. You can't expect to get a windfall for market conditions that haven't occurred yet. 10/250 is a pipe dream as is 180K for pt 135 King Air captain. If those numbers ever become a reality, flight schools will be jammed packed with new meat willing to cut your throat. Count on it.
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While I can agree with most of your points don't casually brush aside arbitrary numbers as a "pipe dream".

I remember in a section 6 not so long ago a majority of people saying "an Ultra Pilot WILL NOT get $100k+...just say'n.
 
So Fisch how do you explain the time you spent at the regionals making crap wages?
 
Everything is a give and take in negotiations and something has to give if something is taken. Is 250K unreasonable? Probably not but what is the give? Harry is not going to give in to that without a serious take. Is it a good target? Yes. I am all for it but is realistic, I can't say, no one really knows what the real numbers are. What we do need to do is uphold our profession to the best of our abilities and accept only improvements. This career has been crap enough!!
 
KiddDynomite said:
Everything is a give and take in negotiations and something has to give if something is taken. Is 250K unreasonable? Probably not but what is the give? Harry is not going to give in to that without a serious take......
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We've already been giving for the last 6 years and they have gladly taken.

Considering the price of pilots with similar training, experience and qualifications, we've been giving away one hell of a bargain.
 
jetlag7 said:
We've already been giving for the last 6 years and they have gladly taken.

Considering the price of pilots with similar training, experience and qualifications, we've been giving away one hell of a bargain.
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How have we been giving for the last six years? The IBB was voted in and that's what we've been working under. I voted no on it for many reasons and one of them was being six years long. Thank the kool-aid drinkers for the loss of buying power when there was more to be had. We still have too many guys that have no sense of value for their self worth or the value of our profession.
 
KiddDynomite said:
How have we been giving for the last six years? The IBB was voted in and that's what we've been working under. I voted no on it for many reasons and one of them was being six years long. Thank the kool-aid drinkers for the loss of buying power when there was more to be had. We still have too many guys that have no sense of value for their self worth or the value of our profession.
Click to expand...

You just answered your own question.
 
We have not given anything back to the company. we are working under a contract that was democratically voted in. That's the agreement. There is no give back in it at all. What has been going on is the erosion in quality of life on the road and nothing done by our illustrious union leaders past or present to stand up to an EMT that is chipping away at everything we fought for. Now I will say in the six years since the IBB our price has dramatically risen and this definitely needs to be addressed but as for giving anything back you've been under a contract. Time to change the contract.
 
fischman said:
An airplane is an airplane. I don't care if it is a King Air, Citation, Hawker, Airbus, or Boeing.

Why some are willing to take peanuts ($70k) to do the same job is pathetic. How much does a SWA PIC make? Why is he worth more than you?
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Because he moves 1,000 people in a day and a king air pilot moves 8.
 
ksu_aviator said:
Because he moves 1,000 people in a day.....
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I doubt that. That's about 7 legs a day with full jets. Besides, the combined net worth of one frac owner and the hourly rate he/she pays likely exceeds the combined net worth of the trash the major air carriers haul.
 
Pervis said:
I doubt that. That's about 7 legs a day with full jets. Besides, the combined net worth of one frac owner and the hourly rate he/she pays likely exceeds the combined net worth of the trash the major air carriers haul.
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Then 10/250 should be a chip shot.
 
Pervis said:
I doubt that. That's about 7 legs a day with full jets. Besides, the combined net worth of one frac owner and the hourly rate he/she pays likely exceeds the combined net worth of the trash the major air carriers haul.
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LOL! That is true except for those flights out of LAX carrying all the starlets! Seriously that is a such a goofy notion because the airlines fly bigger planes! Get real! Try flying in a fractional environment transitioning between controlled and uncontrolled ops, circling approaches and often into a place you have never seen and are unfamiliar with, international ops, customs, actual customer service not a half-ass announcement, mountain ops and basically just being on your own with little in the way of support other than we sent your flight release five hours ago and the weather was good then! Fractional flying is way more dynamic, challenging and demanding. We use every bit of our knowledge, skills and experience daily not subsets or routine. Frac pilots deserve to be highly compensated because they earn it!
 
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KiddDynomite said:
LOL! That is true except for those flights out of LAX carrying all the starlets! Seriously that is a such a goofy notion because the airlines fly bigger planes! Get real! Try flying in a fractional environment transitioning between controlled and uncontrolled ops, circling approaches and often into a place you have never seen and are unfamiliar with, international ops, customs, actual customer service not a half-ass announcement, mountain ops and basically just being on your own with little in the way of support other than we sent your flight release five hours ago and the weather was good then! Fractional flying is way more dynamic, challenging and demanding. We use every bit of our knowledge, skills and experience daily not subsets or routine. Frac pilots deserve to be highly compensated because they earn it!
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I have done both, and I highly disagree. Fltplan.com takes 5 mins. As far as the challenges, its no different. Passing out a coca cola, and loading and unloading golf clubs with a big smile and being polite is not challenging, neither is the flying, if anything I thought the fractional flying was easier.
 
jehtplane said:
I have done both, and I highly disagree. Fltplan.com takes 5 mins. As far as the challenges, its no different. Passing out a coca cola, and loading and unloading golf clubs with a big smile and being polite is not challenging, neither is the flying, if anything I thought the fractional flying was easier.
Click to expand...

I've done both as well and I disagree with your disagreement.

I think fractional flying has been the most dynamic and challenging type of flying in my career.
 

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