What made Eastern GO Under?

[FD109]

Re: Score FD109 4 Turbo 0

Boeingman,

I agree with almost everything you said. I'll tell you the one minor point of disagreement we have in just a minute.

A few months before the strike I had one of the CAL guys who was consulting with us on my jumpseat out of ATL to IAH. Needless to say, he said just what you said about not leaving the cockpit and that is one of the reasons I voted NO to honoring the IAM picket line.

(Just in case, everyone understand that though I voted NO, I complied with the majority vote and did not, and would never, cross the line.)

Eastern's pilots naively thought that the situation was so obvious, and that the case against Lorenzo was so compelling that people would rally to our support if we could bring the situation to a head. We never dreamed in our wildest nightmares that so many off-the-street SCABS would rush to MIA to take our jobs and help Lorenzo keep things going.

We thought that we would be able to shut it down so completely that a bankruptcy judge would appoint a trustee, we would all immediately go back to work, the world would be wonderful, and we would all fly happily until we were 60. The only thing any of us wanted to do was save OUR company, and I honestly think we could have were it not for the SCABs. But they were there and I guess they always will be.

I hope you guys and girls who are reading this stuff will learn from our naive, if well intentioned, mistakes.

The one place I disagree with you is regarding the SCABS feelings about themselves. After EAL I was both a Director of Operations and Chief Pilot at two other airlines.

I interviewed a lot of SCABS and hired some of them, but you could see it in their faces when you talked to them about it. They know what they did, and what they are, and have no respect for themselves. It was funny to see the beads of sweat break out on their foreheads when they realized I was on the outside watching them while they SCABBED Eastern and that now getting a job depended on me!!!

Except for the fact that I could never trust them, when they worked for me I treated them no differently from any other pilot. I even helped defend one from an FAA action and saved his license. We were repaid for this when he failed to show up for a trip about six months later. When scheduling called his home to find out where he was, we were told that he had started school with a major a few days before. He could have at least told us he was leaving; we would have wished him well.

Oh well, a SCAB will always be a SCAB.

Regarding Bavis: I don't recall that he was replaced, but he was overruled. ALPA national also recommended in August 1989 that we go back to work. This was about the time the congressional bill was being voted on and most of us didn't want to give up at that point. We should have, but hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Has anyone read Nuremberg by Joseph Persico, or Nuremberg Diary by G.M. Gilbert? The parallels--a scab or a Nazi trying to justify their actions--are striking...no pun intended.

I have to agree with MetroSheriff about J.S. issues. That extra seat is not supposed to be an instrument of vengeance. Turbo, you're welcome in my rumbleseat any time. Besides, I'd enjoy hearing your drivel face-to-face much more than I'd enjoy stranding you at the gate.

 

[publisher]

screwed up

These last 15 posts or so tell pretty clearly why this is such a screwed up industry. The closest thing that some people on this board have to class is that they took one called first grade.

The scabs around here are over the eyes and brain in a herd mentality.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: screwed up

The scabs around here are over the eyes and brain in a herd mentality.

Spoken like someone who's never been in the situation before.

Publisher, you proved long ago in this thread that you don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about when it comes to Eastern. Just stay out of it.

 

[enigma]

Re: screwed up

The scabs around here are over the eyes and brain in a herd mentality.

Wow,

Publisher, you are either very childish and have to resort to muck raking, or very bitter about something. My momma always said, "if you don't have something good to say, don't say anything". I know that most of us sometimes fall down from that standard, but there's no reason for an ad-hominem attack.

You remind me of one of my uncles. He was an aetheist, and my other uncle was a preacher. The aetheist, just couldn't stand to stay out of the religious discussions that erupted in family gatherings. He loved to walk up and say something to get a fight started. He didn't care about the discussion, he just loved to be contrary.

later,
8N

 

[flight-crew]

Question for Turbo:

Were you an "off the street" scab at Eastern who got hired during the strike or had you been there before the strike, and then decided to cross the picket line?

 

[publisher]

Enigma

Enigma,

You are right. I do not know why I get drawn into some of these discussions where nobody saw the same thing. In this case, a number of people claim to be familiar with what happened and yet they cannot agree on what did.

Combine this with some private messages that said I was right on target by people who do not want in on this argument.

The one post above that said :
We thought that we would be able to shut it down so completely that a bankruptcy judge would appoint a trustee, we would all immediately go back to work, the world would be wonderful, and we would all fly happily until we were 60. The only thing any of us wanted to do was save OUR company, and I honestly think we could have were it not for the SCABs. But they were there and I guess they always will be

This is perfect as it pointed out exactly what I was saying. That the people totally misunderstood the other sides position.

What was never, let me say this again, never, and I do not use that word lightly, never was the above going to happen . What ever was going to happen, things at Eastern were not going back to the way they were. Scabs showing up or not, Eastern of old was dead in the water.

The thing is Enigma, you could not be close to the situation to see it.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Publisher, I don't get it. At your request, this FD109 guy shot down every blind assertion you made with cold, hard, documented facts...documented by Eastern itself, no less, and the bankruptcy court, not ALPA propaganda!

Why do you still insist that you're the only one who really understands what was going on there? Are you determined to defend ammoral corporate raiders and scabs no matter what?

 

[Boeingman]

Typhoon1244 and everyone,

For an understanding and summation of this conversation and any attempt to converse logically and rationally with the likes of publisher, please direct your attention to my avatar.

LOL, but reading publishers posts, you must take into account that many people think like him. The people who view crossing a picket line blashpomeous (sp) are becoming fewer and fewer.
Throw in a lousy economy, aviation job prospects being practically nil right now and the possibility of additional furloughs to an already bloated furloughed workforce, it does not look pretty.

Trust me, having lived through this situation, there are many, many more people and pilots who don't follow or believe the ALPA logic or employment bans, than there are those who will honor the picket lines.

One only has to look at the thousands of applications received at CAL, UAL and EAL when management attempted to break the strike/or union. Well, I guess in CAL's and EAL's case they succeeded.

Also, reading publishers posts gives a good insight to how typical mangement thinks and operates. No need to critisize him, but take the opportunity to learn another point of view.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Publisher, I don't get it. At your request, this FD109 guy shot down every blind assertion you made with cold, hard, documented facts...documented by Eastern itself, no less, and the bankruptcy court, not ALPA propaganda!

Why do you still insist that you're the only one who really understands what was going on there? Are you determined to defend ammoral corporate raiders and scabs no matter what?

Typhoon1244 and everyone,

For an understanding and summation of this conversation and any attempt to converse logically and rationally with the likes of publisher, please direct your attention to my avatar.

 

[flight-crew]

Turbo, same question second time. Were you a previous Eastern pilot before the strike?

 

[Typhoon1244]

If I remember correctly Jesus went through all the same stuff, bucking the status quo. If being a scab helps me relate to my Lord and my Saviour any better, then if is well worth it.

Are you actually comparing yourself to Christ?

Wasn't he an advocate of "thou shalt not steal?" That would seem to go against scab philosophy.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Flight-crew,

Some people didn't have what it took to get hired by a wonderful airline like EAL, so they had to steal someone's job who actually earned it.

I would think a scab could relate far better to Judas than to Jesus. Jesus never betrayed his brothers in the name of greed.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FD109,

As the son of an EAL captain (the real kind...hired in '65 not '89!) I would like to thank you for the huge role you and your courageous brothers played in ridding the industry of a true cancer (lorenzo). Your sacrifices are appreciated by many who followed you to the profession. While I wish the outcome would have been more favorable (perhaps with more support), I hope you can take some small comfort in the fact that you have made a difference, and your fellow pilots are better off because of your strength.

Thank you.

 

[Typhoon1244]

At least Judas had the decency to hang himself.

I have been trying to get off Turbo's back. He has, at least once, expressed something that is uncommon among scabs: remorse. And genuine remorse goes a long way with me.

Regardless of how he may try to justify his actions to salve his self-image, Turbo knows what he did was wrong, and I think he's genuinely sorry about it. I can respect that.

 

[enigma]

LOL, but reading publishers posts, you must take into account that many people think like him. .....................................
Also, reading publishers posts gives a good insight to how typical mangement thinks and operates. No need to critisize him, but take the opportunity to learn another point of view.

Good post. It is this fact that makes me take the time to engage him. I'm stupid enough to think that I might actually affect some change in the way people like him think about professional pilots.

regards,
8N

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Typhoon,

I have seen a great deal of rationalization, some grandiose proclamations of relating to Jesus, but very very little remorse.

However, I realize that suicide is not something to bring up in an aviation discussion, so I have removed that line with apologies to all who might have been offended.

P.S.
You and I share a common trait: pilot sons of EAL pilots. However, I must admit you are a bit more forgiving than I. After seeing what those poor men endured, I can never forgive the perpetrators (scabs, borman, and lorenzo), despite any dubious expressions of remorse. Respect? Out of the question.

 

[FD109]

re: Publisher, ad nauseam

Publisher,

I am going to make one final attempt to get you to answer a question.

You continue to beat the same drum: Eastern was doomed, had a fatal wound, could never be the way it was again, and that neither the SCABS nor Lorenzo caused or contributed to the destruction of the company, and you have continued on and on, ad nauseam.

I realize that you don't have many facts, as you admitted several posts back, but please enlighten us as to your special insight. Please tell us SPECIFICALLY why you contend that EAL was doomed, was in a death spiral, and had a fatal wound.

There are several things you will need to consider and if you would like to review my post where I answered your challenge to present facts for my position, please feel free to do so. You remember; where I discussed Easterns massive resources, worldwide franchise, huge aircraft fleet, etc.

And I am the first to admit that EAL had problems, serious problems. Most specifically incompetent management that was replaced by the predatory Lorenzo management.

Nevertheless, I still contend that if competent management had been imposed upon Eastern at the time of the bankruptcy (before Lorenzo had been able to bleed it completely to death) that the company could have survived and prospered.

I eagerly await your specific, logical, thoughtful, and reasoned arguments (backed up with data, of course) as to why this was not possible.

 

[FD109]

FlyDeltasJets & Typhoon

Thanks for your comments. They are appreciated.

Your fathers and I thought we were doing the right thing. Based upon hindsight and our painful education into human nature and greed, we might choose to fight the battle a different way if we had to do it over again.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Avatar donation

For those of you who are not Lorenzo fans. Which includes the whole world, except maybe for Johnny Ornstein and the Publisher, I submit the picture at left for you to copy and use royalty free. Just right click on the avatar and chosse "Save Picture As" and pick a file name. Such as "Publisher's Buddy" or something along those lines.

I will be changing back to may regular avatar after you have read this and had a chance to save it. I would have PMd it to you, but the boards admin does not allow attchments.

Enjoy.