What made Eastern GO Under?

[publisher]

Seriously

Boy everyone on this thread has taken this stuff a bit over board don't you think........

FD109 was playing around and so was I.

Typhoon is probably a nice guy who sees things from his perspective and obviously wants me to agree that his is the correct one.

Your are right, I am not a commercial pilot. What I have done is:
COO of 135/FBO/corporate flight department with it's own leased airport.
General managing partner-- 121 cargo airline
Construction and implementation of Flying Tigers domestic hub
121 head sales and marketing manager for North America
aircraft trader for two major aircraft leasing companies
airline certification, aircraft leasing, and flight attendant training school company I owned.
Publisher and writer

I am old, cranky, and have a bit of experience. In addition, I have owned and operated a number of personal aircraft. I never really set out to be in aviation other than as an aircraft owner/pilot and did not get into it as a business until already having a succesful career in another industry.

I like to debate and circumstances have put me in some very interesting spaces during my lifetime. In some cases, I prefer not to indicate where I got my information or how I came to know them. While I certainly would not say to this group, trust me, the fact is that most of the things I comment on I was close to or involved in.

Even today, I am in constant talks with HR people in every area of aviation, chief pilots, executives, directors of operation, maintenance management, and line personnel.

I have listened to the people here and respect their opinions. In pm's I have offered advice and on occassion, even walked in a resume or two.

I am not the enemy of pilots just because I look from a different vantage point.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Re: Seriously

Boy everyone on this thread has taken this stuff a bit over board don't you think........

FD109 was playing around and so was I.

Typhoon is probably a nice guy who sees things from his perspective and obviously wants me to agree that his is the correct one.

Your are right, I am not a commercial pilot. What I have done is:
COO of 135/FBO/corporate flight department with it's own leased airport.
General managing partner-- 121 cargo airline
Construction and implementation of Flying Tigers domestic hub
121 head sales and marketing manager for North America
aircraft trader for two major aircraft leasing companies
airline certification, aircraft leasing, and flight attendant training school company I owned.
Publisher and writer

I am old, cranky, and have a bit of experience. In addition, I have owned and operated a number of personal aircraft. I never really set out to be in aviation other than as an aircraft owner/pilot and did not get into it as a business until already having a succesful career in another industry.

I like to debate and circumstances have put me in some very interesting spaces during my lifetime. In some cases, I prefer not to indicate where I got my information or how I came to know them. While I certainly would not say to this group, trust me, the fact is that most of the things I comment on I was close to or involved in.

Even today, I am in constant talks with HR people in every area of aviation, chief pilots, executives, directors of operation, maintenance management, and line personnel.

I have listened to the people here and respect their opinions. In pm's I have offered advice and on occassion, even walked in a resume or two.

I am not the enemy of pilots just because I look from a different vantage point.

Publisher,

Now that is a post and perspective that I can respect. Obviously, due to your experience, your slant is going to tend to be pro-management. It stands to reason that many of your views are going to be diametrically opposed to those of labor (us). Nothing wrong with that. If nothing else it makes for some intriguing conversations. Personally, the threads are alot more interesting with your opposing viewpoint.

The rest is just b@ll-breaking and entertaining in and of itself.

As for Typhoon, I can tell you personally, he is a great guy. He only wants you to agree with him because he is[/] correct.

 

[BigFlyr]

Re: last time

I think that the IAM situation, not the pilot situation made it extremely unattractive on top of weak financials, debt load, fleet, etc.

If you're going put the blame on only one group then it has to be upper management (the brains), not the Pilots or the IAM who were the backbone of the company.

In '87 I was hired right out of school to be an Avionics Tech at EAL and I stayed until the strike. It was a shock to see the friction that existed between management and the IAM. We quickly learned who not to trust including those that crossed picket lines at the previous strike many years prior.

The seeds were planted to strike long before it ever happened. Years of concessions, years of lies, years of losses, while top execs bailed out with their golden $$$ parachutes.

The maintenance dept. had the capacity to repair and overhaul everything in EAL's fleet (DC-9, B727, B757, DC-10, L1011, A300...) making it an extremely valuable asset, if properly utilized. At one point, in the mid '80s EAL maint. was making money for the airline as a repair shop for other airlines but management wouldn't have it. They wanted to show their maintenance as an expense, not a profitable entity. By the time Lorenzo took over, he was determined to show everything at EAL as a money loser in justify breaking up the unions and selling it off in pieces.

Did Lorenzo really want EAL to survive? Don't know. The point is, no one knew except he and his buddies.

Did it turn into a battle of egos? Mangement vs unions? Lorenzo vs Charlie Bryan? Sure it did. Everyone lost.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[FD109]

Re: Seriously

Boy everyone on this thread has taken this stuff a bit over board don't you think........

FD109 was playing around and so was I.

....

I am not the enemy of pilots just because I look from a different vantage point.

Publisher,

I can certainly respect your "seriously" post. It's amazing what a few facts will do for making people take you seriously. It sounds like you and I may be chronological contemporaries if not philosophical brothers.

After reading your online "resume," I can certainly understand your feelings about the IAM. There are few friends of the IAM in the aviation business, and I'm certainly not one of them. (I have to say, though, that EAL's various managements did a lot to create the IAM problem.)

Remember, I voted NO on honoring their picket line.

Nevertheless, when I gave my word that I would abide by the majority vote, I kept my word and I can have absolutely no respect for those EAL pilots who were incapable of keeping their word. And the off-the-street SCABs were simply opportunists who were thinking only of themselves and deserve zero respect. This is where you and I have our greatest disagreement.

My management credentials do not match yours, but I have spent about a third of my career in management positions: VP Flight Operations; Director of Training; Director of Operations; and Chief Pilot, all at 121 carriers. There is one thing, though, that I think I understand that I don't think you do: Unions are not the enemy--not necessarily.

Companies have the unions they deserve. Southwest has reasonable unions while many airlines claim they don't. When one of the companies where I was in management got into trouble after the ValuJet crash, the pilots association came to us offering significant concessions to help us survive. I can tell you that we had treated our employees fairly and with respect and they returned the favor.

I'm convinced that employees (unionized or not) respond to competent management when they are convinced that management is trying to run the company for the company's long term benefit and that the employees are partners in that effort. I'm afraid, Publisher, that most managements think of employees as nothing more than office furniture that can be jerked around and discarded if something cheaper can be found.

I'll say it one more time: Companies have the unions they deserve.

Regards,
FD109

 

[Tim47SIP]

Late Defense

Although things have already been streightened out re Publisher, I wanted to come to his defense.

Metro - Now that is a post and perspective that I can respect. Obviously, due to your experience, your slant is going to tend to be pro-management. It stands to reason that many of your views are going to be diametrically opposed to those of labor (us). Nothing wrong with that. If nothing else it makes for some intriguing conversations. Personally, the threads are alot more interesting with your opposing viewpoint.

Like you said, his slant is very important to get both sides of the story. I think he is a very valuable asset even if he does not agree with the masses (labor).

FD - Publisher; I took a bunch of ex Eastern pilots down with me to Africa and they had no interest in getting shot at so there you go. Different strokes for different folks

I have read several accounts of civillian aircraft being shot at all over the African continent. About 1995 or so, I was interviewed and hired to fly Casa 212's in South Africa for Evergreen. I was specifically told by some of the crews that the aircraft did in fact get shot at there all of the time. I was subsequently offered another position with the Mil and decided to stay in the States with my family. Sort of funny though, I went to south America a few times (civillian rescue operations with the Mil, floods, earthquakes, etc.) and got shot at there. Go Figure!

 

[publisher]

FD109

FD109

I agree, I am talking about a very specific union at a very specific time. That is why I get upset when people think that I am stating a philosophy not talking about specific people./

\Tim47

I interviewed a number of people when we first started the Casa program. Ex America types got first nod. I am sure you understand why.

My wife crossed the picket line at Eastern. She loved that company more than I could ever imagine. She was not a union person, just someone who loved every minuite she spent there.

The tragedy of Eastern is that it pitted friends against friends, good people forced into life decisions by people who were out of control.

Some of you might remember when Wolf came to Flying Tigers and the potential strike was settled with a new contract. The fact is that while settled, I knew that day that Wolf was leaving and Flying Tigers would exist no more.

That is what I mean when I say you have to be there. What is in the paper and common knowledge is meaningless. That day it was over.

Comair is the current situation. Life before that strike was one thing. Everything since has been setting it up to do something different. Remember we had this talk/

 

[NYRANGERS]

Re: FD109

FD109

I agree, I am talking about a very specific union at a very specific time. That is why I get upset when people think that I am stating a philosophy not talking about specific people./

\
My wife crossed the picket line at Eastern. She loved that company more than I could ever imagine. She was not a union person, just someone who loved every minuite she spent there.

The tragedy of Eastern is that it pitted friends against friends, good people forced into life decisions by people who were out of control.

You must be very proud.

A SCAB will never be anything more than a SCAB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FD109]

Eastern's Non-contract Employees

Everyone,

I was there through the whole EAL mess and lost everything just like everyone else. However, as much as I despise the SCABs, I have to say that I DO NOT consider Eastern's non-union employees who crossed the line to be SCABs. Those poor people were absolutely caught in the middle with nobody to represent or speak for them.

It's easy to get caught up in the fervor of the issue and I can certainly understand how that happens. I may have done that myself from time to time, and while I will never ever excuse the SCABs for what they did, we need to be very careful that we don't put people in that group who don't deserve to be there.

Regards,
FD109

 

[publisher]

proud

NYRANGERS

I am always proud of her.

There are some people who just have absolutely no interest in this organized labor stuff. They have a job, want to work, love it, and could not care less about the issues of a labor group they have nothing in common with. . WOW, is that a revelation. \\

I know you will find it surprizing that there are people who feel that if you do not like the job you are in and you do not like working for the people you report to, or, you do not like the pay or conditions, you leave and go elsewhere.

Now you may be one of those who wants to be part of an organized group, wants them to negotiate your pay and conditions, who wants them to deal with management. That's OK too if you respect the rights and people who say they do not want to be part of that.

 

[stingray]

There is no way to sugar coat it people.

Definition:
If you cross a picket line, if you are one of the union members or not, YOU ARE A SCAB. PERIOD

Someone doesn't necessarily need to be a member of the union when they cross the picket line. The person becomes a SCAB at that moment, union member or not.

 

[FD109]

Re: proud

Publisher,

You're starting to lose me again. The ONLY way that employees can deal with an abusive, uncaring, or inept management is as part of an organized group. For you to say that dissatisfied employees should simply "leave and go elsewhere" indicates either extreme naivete or elitism on your part. I was beginning to think better of you; you disappoint me.

If your wife was, as I assume, one of Eastern's non-contract employees, she was reasonably well paid and well treated--pay and working conditions similar to her unionized counterparts at other airlines. She received that treatment not because she had personally negotiated those conditions with the corporation, or because the corporation especially liked and respected her. She received that treatment because the organized-labor groups at other airlines had negotiated decent working conditions and pay with their employers. Eastern basically matched union pay/benefits to keep their non-contract employees out of a union.

Perhaps some of those people who are not interested in being part of an organized group, or who feel that being a union member is "beneath them," should think a little more globally and realize that they too are benefiting from the efforts of organized-labor groups.

As enigma points out in his new thread, management elitism is rampant, and I would suggest that "non-union-employee elitism" is rampant as well. I'll have some respect for that when I see the non-union elitists refuse to take the pay and benefits that a labor group somewhere has negotiated for them.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Could Publisher be Mary Schiavo??

 

[FD109]

Ouch!!!

Perhaps, but it would probably require some fairly major surgery...Ouch!

 

[publisher]

Hurt now

Mary??? Well there you finally found an insult that hurts.

Why does everything I say mean it is the way I feel. I try to point out how a variety of the parties feel.

In the state of Florida, a right to work state, the vast majority of the people do not work in a union situation. Are we to assume that all management is terrible, deliberately under pays its employees, and has terrible working conditions in these non union companies.

Contrary to what was said, many of these people do negotiate what they get paid. When I did a number of certifications, I negotiated with the individual crew members on what they would be paid, when and how much, etc..

Are you saying that when Southwest started or these other companies, they were merely reflecting on what some union group had assured. I don't think so.

You see the only person I hold accountable for what I agree to work for is me. The only person I hold accountable for staying in bad conditions is me. If we have a disagreement, it is on this issue.

Quote:
For you to say that dissatisfied employees should simply "leave and go elsewhere" indicates either extreme naivete or elitism on your part. I was beginning to think better of you; you disappoint me.

If people will not be fair and respect you, that is exactly what I expect you to do. I fail to see why that is elitism or naivete. People do it every day.

 

[FD109]

Re: Hurt now

Publisher,

Don't get upset about the Mary S. thing. I didn't bring it up, and anyway I was defending you because I'm pretty sure you haven't had THAT operation. Also, you know a lot more about airplanes than she does--well, but then so does my dog, so I guess that's not that much of a compliment. But I know you know more than both Mary and my dog combined.

Do you remember the night Mary was on the Larry King show explaining how the KAL B-747 crash at Guam might have happened because the electronic glide slope was inoperative and therefore the pilot would not have known what his angle of attack was?

Back to the other issue: Come on Publisher, you aren't that naive. Pilots at airlines with more than a hand full of pilots can't negotiate an individual contract for themselves. That's absurd and you know it.

I can just imagine a Delta pilot trying to get into the CEO's office to negotiate his own personal pilot contract.

Can you imaging three crewmembers in the same cockpit with each having different duty time limitations etc., because they had all negotiated individual pilot contracts with management. It would be unworkable, and I'm sure you know that. This is too silly to even talk about.

Quotation from your last post. "If people will not be fair and respect you, that is exactly what I expect you to do. [Leave] I fail to see why that is elitism or naivete. People do it every day."

To suggest that employees should simply leave rather than try to negotiate better working conditions or pay through a union is exactly the attitude that makes unions necessary: "Take whatever we give you or get out."

I don't know Publisher. You tell me: Are you naive or elitest? It must be one or the other because I don't think you're stupid. Or maybe you just like to debate.

Quotation from your previous post. "Are you saying that when Southwest started or these other companies, they were merely reflecting on what some union group had assured. I don't think so."

I think I know what you are trying to say here. I have helped certify two start-up airlines. And absolutely, we based our initial pay scales on similar companies both unionized and non-unionized. We knew that to get decent people we had to pay "the going rate" for particular positions. And are those rates higher overall because of union representation at other companies? Of course they are!

Do you honestly not understand that many companies pay union rates or sometimes a little better to keep their employees out of unions? Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say because I can't imagine that you don't understand that.

And finally, back to the Mary S. thing: Remember she's on CNN a lot and I'm going to watch carefully in the future. If I see the two of you together I'll have definite proof that you aren't her. (And I never really thought you were anyway.)

 

[FD109]

You are just like my wife's brother.

Publisher,

I was just looking at something: This thread has had 166 posts and 3,240 views as of the last time I looked at it. Were it not for you, it probably would have faded out long ago!

Now, don't let this go to your head ... I'm not agreeing with you about anything (well not much of anything), I'm just complimenting your tenacity.

And finally: My wife thinks she has figured out who you are. She thinks you are her brother Eddie. Eddie will debate anything with anybody, anytime, and if he convinces them to change their opinion and agree with him, then he changes sides to keep the debate going.

Regards,
FD109

 

[publisher]

Right

I am Eddie but when your wife is not looking I borrow her clothes and become Mary S. Don't tell/

Obviously I know that organized labor in the airline business has driven up the wages. Actually one thing that really helped that to happen was regulation. During that time, there was little incentive to really keep costs in line as you could recover them easily because the costs were merely passed along in a fairly non-competitive world/

The point is when people who do not want that type of thing are criticized for doing it their way. Not labelling people who do not aspire to an hourly job and have no interest in your labor issues as scabs might be a start.

Perhaps all the customers that crossed lines were scabs too.

I do not label you guys for participating in a situation which is organized and pays well. Fine with me. Good for you. Just don't ask me to support it because it is of no interest or concern to me.

 

[FD109]

Re: Right

Publisher,

No the passengers certainly weren't SCABs, and, don't forget, I don't think EAL's non-contract employees (like your wife) were either. The non-contract people would have been fired immediately with no legal recourse had they honored the line; I understand that, and did not expect them to honor the picket line. However, many of them participated actively in the strike effort at the support level (manning telephones, producing printed material, supplying information from inside, etc.). For the most part, the non-contract people wanted to get rid of Lorenzo as badly as the unionized employees did.

I know that philosophically you and I are far, far apart on the SCAB issue and I have tried and tried to think of some corollary that would have some significance, some meaning to you to help explain my (the labor) point of view.

I think I understand your point of view (remember I was on the management side of the desk for a third of my career). For that matter, I even agree with your point of view when you are discussing things at the micro level--individuals dealing with individuals, and so on. But it doesn't work at the macro level--an individual employee trying to deal with a large corporate entity.

The only way that interaction can work and give the individual employee any chance whatsoever is when the individual employees band together as a group to level the playing field. And that can only work when the individuals support their own group effort

Most of the Eastern-employee SCABs either voted to honor the picket line, or didn't bother to vote. Most of them eagerly accepted the benefits and pay that ALPA had negotiated for them over the years. Most of them gladly accepted the legal assistance they received from ALPA when they had FAA or company problems.

When they became part of the organized group (and they didn't have to) they agreed to comply with a majority vote. They sure abided by the majority vote when it came time to accept a pay raise!

You see the employee-SCABs as free thinking individuals who wouldn't be told what to do. I see them as dishonorable, unethical, selfserving traitors. There were a few who resigned from ALPA and made it clear that they would not honor the picket line; I don't agree with them, but I respect their honesty. Most of them, however, continued to accept each and every benefit of being a union member until it started to hurt their pocketbook.

Then, suddenly, when they started thinking about money in their pockets or the promotions that they could suddenly get, they had a philosophical revelation that inspired them to be individualists, and free thinkers and across the picket line they went. It didn't matter what they had promised to do, or who they had given their word to, they were gone.

The off-the-street SCABs were just opportunists who saw a chance to acquire instantly and easily those things that others had fought for years to win.

I know you don't agree with me, and, frankly, I don't care and don't expect you to; but if you are ever in a position to need loyality and honesty from someone, I hope that person doesn't have the morals of a SCAB.

One of these days, I'll get really wound up and tell you how I really feel.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Hey Publisher:

Sorry about that Mary Schiavo thing. I've since realized that is a terrible insult to anyone.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Re: Right

I see [scabs] as dishonorable, unethical, selfserving traitors.

I think your characterization of scabs is a little on the generous side. Unfortunately, Flightinfo would censor any more accurate description. I think you could safely add "spineless," though.

Hey, someone earlier said that any employee who crosses a picket line is a scab. Not so. The various passenger service agents (ticket agents, gate agents, etc.) at Eastern were not unionized and had no choice about going to work. They were the innocent victims of a battle between Lorenzo and the pilots/flight attendants/mechanics.

Publisher, if your wife was at Eastern, then you and I have something in common: we both have thoroughly biased views of what happened there. You once suggested that people like FD109, FlyDeltasJets, and myself were "too close" to the problem to be objective. Well, guess what? That goes for you, too. I'm assuming your wife was not a flight attendant, pilot, or mechanic, by the way.

If she was...well, that's bad.

I'm glad you finally cleared the air and told us where you're coming from on this issue. Oh, and on behalf of all the professional pilots on this board, even though I wasn't the perpetrator, I want to apologize to you. Nobody deserves to be compared to Mary Schiavo!

 

[FD109]

A Clarification

Everyone,

I want to make sure that none of you think that I would urge you to strike in this industry, in this environment. I would, in fact, urge just the opposite. All of my comments previously in this thread involve trying to explain what happened at Eastern and why it happened, and should in no way be construed as a recommendation to do the same thing.

As Boeingman said some time back, there are just too many potential SCABs and people who have Publisher's point of view for a strike to be a viable weapon at this time (except, perhaps under very limited and specific circumstances). One caution though, get very familiar with the Railway Labor Act (RLA) and understand how management can use it to force a strike if they are so inclined.

Another thing: I don't think Publisher is a bad person. He is simply a person, and point of view, that we need to understand.

Regards, from someone who has been there and never wants to be there again,
FD109

 

[publisher]

Thanks

Thanks for withdrawing the Mary thing.

My wife and I were not married during the time we are talking about. I was a COO in a Miami company and flew Eastern all the time.

A customer and I bought a plane and decided to learn to fly and all we could about aviation. In addition, I ate lunch most days in Miami Springs at the little place behind what I think was the Kings Inn back then where a good many of Eastern people did. My office was next to Miami Center.

As I said earlier, it is hard to look at this without recognizing the history of regulation versus deregulation. You have also made the assumption that wage would not have been driven by supply and demand of qualified personnel. I freely admit that the union did drive up wages but merely suggest that the regulated industry was a reason they got where they did.

Eastern will always stand to me as a management/labor situation that went horribly astray from any kind of reasonableness on any side.

 

[enigma]

Re: Right

I do not label you guys for participating in a situation which is organized and pays well. Fine with me. Good for you. Just don't ask me to support it because it is of no interest or concern to me.

If you don't have any interest or concern, why do you seem so interested? Why do you always have to input to the discussion?

Also, what would you have us do? We don't participate in the situation because we all grew up dreaming to be union activists, we participate because we all grew up dreaming to fly airplanes. We are part of the "situation" because it existed before 99% of us were born.

Would you like for all of the pilots who have been tainted by union influence to just quit?

Instead of just being the constant contrarian, how about proposing a solution. Maybe you could give a dissertation on the reason Freedom Airlines will be a positive influence on our industry. (no sarcasm intended)

I can be convinced to change my mind, and I'm sure that others could also be convinced; but you won't accomplish any convincing by just telling us that we don't understand the game.

regards,
8N

BTW, If you really want to effect change, you'll stop trying to convince us, that someone who crosses a picket line in order to take the job away from one of us, is a hero.

 

[FD109]

Re: Thanks

Thanks for withdrawing the Mary thing.

As I said earlier, it is hard to look at this without recognizing the history of regulation versus deregulation... I freely admit that the union did drive up wages but merely suggest that the regulated industry was a reason they got where they did.

Eastern will always stand to me as a management/labor situation that went horribly astray from any kind of reasonableness on any side.

Well dammit Publisher,

You did it again: You made me agree with you on something (well most of it)! I'm getting whiplash!

Regards,
FD109

 

[PassingThru]

Why Eastern Went Under????

Now we ALL know.....

It was talked to death





-

 

[Typhoon1244]

Congratulations, PassingThru! After viewing your profile, I have come to the conclusion that you are the Most Anonomous Person on this board!

 

[PassingThru]

Thanks Typhoon

Well, I'm not a pilot, but I FLY a desk in aviation and read this board daily....and finally decided I just had to register and respond to some of this stuff.

Hope that is okay.


--------

 

[MetroSheriff]

You bet it is. Welcome to the boards.

 

[FD109]

Re: Why Eastern Went Under????

Now we ALL know.....

It was talked to death

-

You think this is bad--you shoulda been there when it was all happening.

Sorry if we're boring you PassingThru.

 

[Bluestreak]

Eastern redux

From today's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette about the IAM vote:
"In anticipation of today's IAM vote, few were hazarding any predictions about its outcome.
Many mechanics appear to be angry with both the IAM and the airline -- and this could influence the results.
Some are so angry with the IAM that they are working to replace the IAM with a smaller rival, the American Mechanics Fraternal Association.
Don Miller, a US Airways mechanic for 13 years, said he was insulted that IAM leaders contended that the rank and file were confused when they initially rejected the company's offer.
"We know the consequences. This isn't an easy decision for any of the guys," said Miller, who is based in Pittsburgh. "We're tired of this. We're tired of the IAM. And if it means this airline has to go under, so be it."
If the IAM members vote down the concessions and the bankruptcy judge abrogates the existing contract, US Airways has said it intended to impose lower wages and benefits on mechanics and related workers."


On behalf of the 36,000 employees and their families of US Airways Group,I hope the next thing we hear out of you is "Welcome to Sheetz,pump #2 is on."