Lorenzo tried to prove that the work stoppage was a wildcat strike the federal courts ruled it was a legal work stoppage and Lorenzo retaliated by filing Chapter 11. Most of the details I have come from "Grounded" by AAron Bernstein. As for bs I would agree as it expresses viewpoints of many pilots. I was told that the contract had been voted on but I just read it was not voted on but was in the final stages prior to the strike. The pilots did not vote to strike and the IMB did not set a date, that is not bs.
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What made Eastern GO Under?
- Thread starter B-J-J Fighter
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Typhoon1244
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FD109
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TurboS7,
Earlier you said the pilots did not vote. Then you said the vote came after the work stoppage. Which was it? Well anyway, you were wronge in both cases.
Listen pal, I was there. I voted and mailed my ballot in well before the IAM strike.
And why are you even talking about a pilot contract? You said, "The pilots did not vote to strike and the IMB (sic) did not set a date, that is not bs." What are you talking about. Nobody ever said that the pilots voted to strike over their contract or that the NMB had set a date. That has nothing to do with what we are discussing except to cloud the issue. Eastern's pilots were working under a valid contract--Period. So what--nothing to do with honoring the IAM picket line.
EAL's pilots VOTED rightly or wrongly to honor the IAM picket line. What more can I say. You can say as many times as you want to that we didn't but we did.
But, please don't tell me again that I didn't vote (when I did), or that the vote was after the walkout (which it wasn't).
I think you may have been hanging around with too many SCABS with too many excuses why they were SCABS, because you sure are coming up with a lot of their BS.
Earlier you said the pilots did not vote. Then you said the vote came after the work stoppage. Which was it? Well anyway, you were wronge in both cases.
Listen pal, I was there. I voted and mailed my ballot in well before the IAM strike.
And why are you even talking about a pilot contract? You said, "The pilots did not vote to strike and the IMB (sic) did not set a date, that is not bs." What are you talking about. Nobody ever said that the pilots voted to strike over their contract or that the NMB had set a date. That has nothing to do with what we are discussing except to cloud the issue. Eastern's pilots were working under a valid contract--Period. So what--nothing to do with honoring the IAM picket line.
EAL's pilots VOTED rightly or wrongly to honor the IAM picket line. What more can I say. You can say as many times as you want to that we didn't but we did.
But, please don't tell me again that I didn't vote (when I did), or that the vote was after the walkout (which it wasn't).
I think you may have been hanging around with too many SCABS with too many excuses why they were SCABS, because you sure are coming up with a lot of their BS.
Score FD109 4 Turbo 0
I as well remember the vote from the CAL pilots view. Not sure if you remember but some of our ex ALPA officers were consulting with the EAL ALPA MEC a the time. Our advice was to NOT leave the cockpit, under any circumstances, with Frank at the helm, especially for the IAM. Understandibly, the EAL situation was different but our perspective was that Frank was going to do exactly what he eventually did. From an outsider view we predicted the destruction and his dismemberment of EAL.
Didn't JB call t he strike off but was overruled (and replaced) by hard line elements within the MEC (SC)?
Our strike was a total disaster and completely goatf*ucked from the start. We crossed an IAM picket line for several weeks before our walkout.
One final thought. I learned a long time ago that calling these guys scabs and getting worked up does nothing but raise your blood pressure. If the term bothered them in the least they wouldn't of crossed in the first place. And trust me, they could care less about JS denials or getting labled as a scab. What has always concerned me is why are so many guys on the list, ex ALPA members?
I as well remember the vote from the CAL pilots view. Not sure if you remember but some of our ex ALPA officers were consulting with the EAL ALPA MEC a the time. Our advice was to NOT leave the cockpit, under any circumstances, with Frank at the helm, especially for the IAM. Understandibly, the EAL situation was different but our perspective was that Frank was going to do exactly what he eventually did. From an outsider view we predicted the destruction and his dismemberment of EAL.
Didn't JB call t he strike off but was overruled (and replaced) by hard line elements within the MEC (SC)?
Our strike was a total disaster and completely goatf*ucked from the start. We crossed an IAM picket line for several weeks before our walkout.
One final thought. I learned a long time ago that calling these guys scabs and getting worked up does nothing but raise your blood pressure. If the term bothered them in the least they wouldn't of crossed in the first place. And trust me, they could care less about JS denials or getting labled as a scab. What has always concerned me is why are so many guys on the list, ex ALPA members?
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Typhoon1244
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DarnNearaJet
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MetroSheriff
Hittin' the road...
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From TurboS7:
and
Here is the link.
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=36971&highlight=Scab#post36971
and
Here is the link.
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=36971&highlight=Scab#post36971
You guys really hurt you know that, all this name calling just brings me to tears. I don't want and don't need your jumpseat, I buy a ticket on an airline which helps pay your bills. When one of our guys gets rejected on the js, we don't use that airline anymore, that results in about a loss of 1 to 2 Million to your airline. Go ahead do whatever, its your job. You have a list, I have a list too, and I do control not a jumpseat but many seats on an aircraft-big deal. By the way all legit pilots are welcome on my jumpseat and in multiples if the need be, I don't care where they have come or what airline. They are just fellow pilots. I listen and I see all the attitude's on this board, I know that if a situation came about as EAL, half you guys would be waiting in line. I saw it at UAL and EAL thousand of guys coming out to take a guys job, I am saying don' t it. There is even a thread here somewhere where a guys is belly aching because he turned the Cathy Pacific job down after reading what I put on this board. He was saying he should have taken the job now. The pilot job market at this time is not tight at all, all kinds of good airlines are hiring. Yet I hear and see everyone belly aching, you havn't seen anything yet. Big jets don't and never have impressed me, all I ever wanted was to fly and provide for my family. Aviation has provided that, the door was opened to me at EAL. I came to EAL with 9000 hours of piston time no turbine time, EAL helped me transition to turbines. I know I took the legit seat of some other guy for a time, whoever that person is I owe them a lot and I thank them for sharing a part of aviation that was really neat. My short time at EAL was wonderful and I enjoyed everyone that flew with. Some of the most interesting guys were the ones that came back at the last, after ALPA said go back. They endured the pain and hardship of the strike and had a bunch of interesting stories to tell. Great men with great character. FD109, you voted one way and the majority went the other, you stuck with the guys and did the right thing. I don't recommed my path to anyone but under my circumstances, and my situation, being the independent sort that I am(I was always in management never a line pilot prior to EAL)it was good for me. Boeingman is right, yelling and calleing names doesn't accomplish anything.It doesn't bother myself or anyone else, we made a decision , maybe it was a wrong one but we did it and I will stick with it and the consequences. So yell and scream and do what whatever your childish desires call for , it won't change what has already done and it sure won't change my mind. Our country was founded by guys being excommunicated out of the Church of England, people going against the flow. Piss me an others off and we will prevail somewhere, somehow, it is a free country.Have fun with this one.
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FD109
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Re: Score FD109 4 Turbo 0
Boeingman,
I agree with almost everything you said. I'll tell you the one minor point of disagreement we have in just a minute.
A few months before the strike I had one of the CAL guys who was consulting with us on my jumpseat out of ATL to IAH. Needless to say, he said just what you said about not leaving the cockpit and that is one of the reasons I voted NO to honoring the IAM picket line.
(Just in case, everyone understand that though I voted NO, I complied with the majority vote and did not, and would never, cross the line.)
Eastern's pilots naively thought that the situation was so obvious, and that the case against Lorenzo was so compelling that people would rally to our support if we could bring the situation to a head. We never dreamed in our wildest nightmares that so many off-the-street SCABS would rush to MIA to take our jobs and help Lorenzo keep things going.
We thought that we would be able to shut it down so completely that a bankruptcy judge would appoint a trustee, we would all immediately go back to work, the world would be wonderful, and we would all fly happily until we were 60. The only thing any of us wanted to do was save OUR company, and I honestly think we could have were it not for the SCABs. But they were there and I guess they always will be.
I hope you guys and girls who are reading this stuff will learn from our naive, if well intentioned, mistakes.
The one place I disagree with you is regarding the SCABS feelings about themselves. After EAL I was both a Director of Operations and Chief Pilot at two other airlines.
I interviewed a lot of SCABS and hired some of them, but you could see it in their faces when you talked to them about it. They know what they did, and what they are, and have no respect for themselves. It was funny to see the beads of sweat break out on their foreheads when they realized I was on the outside watching them while they SCABBED Eastern and that now getting a job depended on me!!!
Except for the fact that I could never trust them, when they worked for me I treated them no differently from any other pilot. I even helped defend one from an FAA action and saved his license. We were repaid for this when he failed to show up for a trip about six months later. When scheduling called his home to find out where he was, we were told that he had started school with a major a few days before. He could have at least told us he was leaving; we would have wished him well.
Oh well, a SCAB will always be a SCAB.
Regarding Bavis: I don't recall that he was replaced, but he was overruled. ALPA national also recommended in August 1989 that we go back to work. This was about the time the congressional bill was being voted on and most of us didn't want to give up at that point. We should have, but hindsight is always 20/20.
Boeingman,
I agree with almost everything you said. I'll tell you the one minor point of disagreement we have in just a minute.
A few months before the strike I had one of the CAL guys who was consulting with us on my jumpseat out of ATL to IAH. Needless to say, he said just what you said about not leaving the cockpit and that is one of the reasons I voted NO to honoring the IAM picket line.
(Just in case, everyone understand that though I voted NO, I complied with the majority vote and did not, and would never, cross the line.)
Eastern's pilots naively thought that the situation was so obvious, and that the case against Lorenzo was so compelling that people would rally to our support if we could bring the situation to a head. We never dreamed in our wildest nightmares that so many off-the-street SCABS would rush to MIA to take our jobs and help Lorenzo keep things going.
We thought that we would be able to shut it down so completely that a bankruptcy judge would appoint a trustee, we would all immediately go back to work, the world would be wonderful, and we would all fly happily until we were 60. The only thing any of us wanted to do was save OUR company, and I honestly think we could have were it not for the SCABs. But they were there and I guess they always will be.
I hope you guys and girls who are reading this stuff will learn from our naive, if well intentioned, mistakes.
The one place I disagree with you is regarding the SCABS feelings about themselves. After EAL I was both a Director of Operations and Chief Pilot at two other airlines.
I interviewed a lot of SCABS and hired some of them, but you could see it in their faces when you talked to them about it. They know what they did, and what they are, and have no respect for themselves. It was funny to see the beads of sweat break out on their foreheads when they realized I was on the outside watching them while they SCABBED Eastern and that now getting a job depended on me!!!
Except for the fact that I could never trust them, when they worked for me I treated them no differently from any other pilot. I even helped defend one from an FAA action and saved his license. We were repaid for this when he failed to show up for a trip about six months later. When scheduling called his home to find out where he was, we were told that he had started school with a major a few days before. He could have at least told us he was leaving; we would have wished him well.
Oh well, a SCAB will always be a SCAB.
Regarding Bavis: I don't recall that he was replaced, but he was overruled. ALPA national also recommended in August 1989 that we go back to work. This was about the time the congressional bill was being voted on and most of us didn't want to give up at that point. We should have, but hindsight is always 20/20.
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Typhoon1244
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Has anyone read Nuremberg by Joseph Persico, or Nuremberg Diary by G.M. Gilbert? The parallels--a scab or a Nazi trying to justify their actions--are striking...no pun intended.
I have to agree with MetroSheriff about J.S. issues. That extra seat is not supposed to be an instrument of vengeance. Turbo, you're welcome in my rumbleseat any time. Besides, I'd enjoy hearing your drivel face-to-face much more than I'd enjoy stranding you at the gate.
I have to agree with MetroSheriff about J.S. issues. That extra seat is not supposed to be an instrument of vengeance. Turbo, you're welcome in my rumbleseat any time. Besides, I'd enjoy hearing your drivel face-to-face much more than I'd enjoy stranding you at the gate.
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publisher
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Typhoon1244
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enigma
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Re: screwed up
Wow,
Publisher, you are either very childish and have to resort to muck raking, or very bitter about something. My momma always said, "if you don't have something good to say, don't say anything". I know that most of us sometimes fall down from that standard, but there's no reason for an ad-hominem attack.
You remind me of one of my uncles. He was an aetheist, and my other uncle was a preacher. The aetheist, just couldn't stand to stay out of the religious discussions that erupted in family gatherings. He loved to walk up and say something to get a fight started. He didn't care about the discussion, he just loved to be contrary.
later,
8N
publisher said:
Wow,
Publisher, you are either very childish and have to resort to muck raking, or very bitter about something. My momma always said, "if you don't have something good to say, don't say anything". I know that most of us sometimes fall down from that standard, but there's no reason for an ad-hominem attack.
You remind me of one of my uncles. He was an aetheist, and my other uncle was a preacher. The aetheist, just couldn't stand to stay out of the religious discussions that erupted in family gatherings. He loved to walk up and say something to get a fight started. He didn't care about the discussion, he just loved to be contrary.
later,
8N
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