What made Eastern GO Under?

[FD109]

Re: proud

Publisher,

You're starting to lose me again. The ONLY way that employees can deal with an abusive, uncaring, or inept management is as part of an organized group. For you to say that dissatisfied employees should simply "leave and go elsewhere" indicates either extreme naivete or elitism on your part. I was beginning to think better of you; you disappoint me.

If your wife was, as I assume, one of Eastern's non-contract employees, she was reasonably well paid and well treated--pay and working conditions similar to her unionized counterparts at other airlines. She received that treatment not because she had personally negotiated those conditions with the corporation, or because the corporation especially liked and respected her. She received that treatment because the organized-labor groups at other airlines had negotiated decent working conditions and pay with their employers. Eastern basically matched union pay/benefits to keep their non-contract employees out of a union.

Perhaps some of those people who are not interested in being part of an organized group, or who feel that being a union member is "beneath them," should think a little more globally and realize that they too are benefiting from the efforts of organized-labor groups.

As enigma points out in his new thread, management elitism is rampant, and I would suggest that "non-union-employee elitism" is rampant as well. I'll have some respect for that when I see the non-union elitists refuse to take the pay and benefits that a labor group somewhere has negotiated for them.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Could Publisher be Mary Schiavo??

 

[FD109]

Ouch!!!

Perhaps, but it would probably require some fairly major surgery...Ouch!

 

[publisher]

Hurt now

Mary??? Well there you finally found an insult that hurts.

Why does everything I say mean it is the way I feel. I try to point out how a variety of the parties feel.

In the state of Florida, a right to work state, the vast majority of the people do not work in a union situation. Are we to assume that all management is terrible, deliberately under pays its employees, and has terrible working conditions in these non union companies.

Contrary to what was said, many of these people do negotiate what they get paid. When I did a number of certifications, I negotiated with the individual crew members on what they would be paid, when and how much, etc..

Are you saying that when Southwest started or these other companies, they were merely reflecting on what some union group had assured. I don't think so.

You see the only person I hold accountable for what I agree to work for is me. The only person I hold accountable for staying in bad conditions is me. If we have a disagreement, it is on this issue.

Quote:
For you to say that dissatisfied employees should simply "leave and go elsewhere" indicates either extreme naivete or elitism on your part. I was beginning to think better of you; you disappoint me.

If people will not be fair and respect you, that is exactly what I expect you to do. I fail to see why that is elitism or naivete. People do it every day.

 

[FD109]

Re: Hurt now

Publisher,

Don't get upset about the Mary S. thing. I didn't bring it up, and anyway I was defending you because I'm pretty sure you haven't had THAT operation. Also, you know a lot more about airplanes than she does--well, but then so does my dog, so I guess that's not that much of a compliment. But I know you know more than both Mary and my dog combined.

Do you remember the night Mary was on the Larry King show explaining how the KAL B-747 crash at Guam might have happened because the electronic glide slope was inoperative and therefore the pilot would not have known what his angle of attack was?

Back to the other issue: Come on Publisher, you aren't that naive. Pilots at airlines with more than a hand full of pilots can't negotiate an individual contract for themselves. That's absurd and you know it.

I can just imagine a Delta pilot trying to get into the CEO's office to negotiate his own personal pilot contract.

Can you imaging three crewmembers in the same cockpit with each having different duty time limitations etc., because they had all negotiated individual pilot contracts with management. It would be unworkable, and I'm sure you know that. This is too silly to even talk about.

Quotation from your last post. "If people will not be fair and respect you, that is exactly what I expect you to do. [Leave] I fail to see why that is elitism or naivete. People do it every day."

To suggest that employees should simply leave rather than try to negotiate better working conditions or pay through a union is exactly the attitude that makes unions necessary: "Take whatever we give you or get out."

I don't know Publisher. You tell me: Are you naive or elitest? It must be one or the other because I don't think you're stupid. Or maybe you just like to debate.

Quotation from your previous post. "Are you saying that when Southwest started or these other companies, they were merely reflecting on what some union group had assured. I don't think so."

I think I know what you are trying to say here. I have helped certify two start-up airlines. And absolutely, we based our initial pay scales on similar companies both unionized and non-unionized. We knew that to get decent people we had to pay "the going rate" for particular positions. And are those rates higher overall because of union representation at other companies? Of course they are!

Do you honestly not understand that many companies pay union rates or sometimes a little better to keep their employees out of unions? Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say because I can't imagine that you don't understand that.

And finally, back to the Mary S. thing: Remember she's on CNN a lot and I'm going to watch carefully in the future. If I see the two of you together I'll have definite proof that you aren't her. (And I never really thought you were anyway.)

 

[FD109]

You are just like my wife's brother.

Publisher,

I was just looking at something: This thread has had 166 posts and 3,240 views as of the last time I looked at it. Were it not for you, it probably would have faded out long ago!

Now, don't let this go to your head ... I'm not agreeing with you about anything (well not much of anything), I'm just complimenting your tenacity.

And finally: My wife thinks she has figured out who you are. She thinks you are her brother Eddie. Eddie will debate anything with anybody, anytime, and if he convinces them to change their opinion and agree with him, then he changes sides to keep the debate going.

Regards,
FD109

 

[publisher]

Right

I am Eddie but when your wife is not looking I borrow her clothes and become Mary S. Don't tell/

Obviously I know that organized labor in the airline business has driven up the wages. Actually one thing that really helped that to happen was regulation. During that time, there was little incentive to really keep costs in line as you could recover them easily because the costs were merely passed along in a fairly non-competitive world/

The point is when people who do not want that type of thing are criticized for doing it their way. Not labelling people who do not aspire to an hourly job and have no interest in your labor issues as scabs might be a start.

Perhaps all the customers that crossed lines were scabs too.

I do not label you guys for participating in a situation which is organized and pays well. Fine with me. Good for you. Just don't ask me to support it because it is of no interest or concern to me.

 

[FD109]

Re: Right

Publisher,

No the passengers certainly weren't SCABs, and, don't forget, I don't think EAL's non-contract employees (like your wife) were either. The non-contract people would have been fired immediately with no legal recourse had they honored the line; I understand that, and did not expect them to honor the picket line. However, many of them participated actively in the strike effort at the support level (manning telephones, producing printed material, supplying information from inside, etc.). For the most part, the non-contract people wanted to get rid of Lorenzo as badly as the unionized employees did.

I know that philosophically you and I are far, far apart on the SCAB issue and I have tried and tried to think of some corollary that would have some significance, some meaning to you to help explain my (the labor) point of view.

I think I understand your point of view (remember I was on the management side of the desk for a third of my career). For that matter, I even agree with your point of view when you are discussing things at the micro level--individuals dealing with individuals, and so on. But it doesn't work at the macro level--an individual employee trying to deal with a large corporate entity.

The only way that interaction can work and give the individual employee any chance whatsoever is when the individual employees band together as a group to level the playing field. And that can only work when the individuals support their own group effort

Most of the Eastern-employee SCABs either voted to honor the picket line, or didn't bother to vote. Most of them eagerly accepted the benefits and pay that ALPA had negotiated for them over the years. Most of them gladly accepted the legal assistance they received from ALPA when they had FAA or company problems.

When they became part of the organized group (and they didn't have to) they agreed to comply with a majority vote. They sure abided by the majority vote when it came time to accept a pay raise!

You see the employee-SCABs as free thinking individuals who wouldn't be told what to do. I see them as dishonorable, unethical, selfserving traitors. There were a few who resigned from ALPA and made it clear that they would not honor the picket line; I don't agree with them, but I respect their honesty. Most of them, however, continued to accept each and every benefit of being a union member until it started to hurt their pocketbook.

Then, suddenly, when they started thinking about money in their pockets or the promotions that they could suddenly get, they had a philosophical revelation that inspired them to be individualists, and free thinkers and across the picket line they went. It didn't matter what they had promised to do, or who they had given their word to, they were gone.

The off-the-street SCABs were just opportunists who saw a chance to acquire instantly and easily those things that others had fought for years to win.

I know you don't agree with me, and, frankly, I don't care and don't expect you to; but if you are ever in a position to need loyality and honesty from someone, I hope that person doesn't have the morals of a SCAB.

One of these days, I'll get really wound up and tell you how I really feel.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Hey Publisher:

Sorry about that Mary Schiavo thing. I've since realized that is a terrible insult to anyone.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Re: Right

I see [scabs] as dishonorable, unethical, selfserving traitors.

I think your characterization of scabs is a little on the generous side. Unfortunately, Flightinfo would censor any more accurate description. I think you could safely add "spineless," though.

Hey, someone earlier said that any employee who crosses a picket line is a scab. Not so. The various passenger service agents (ticket agents, gate agents, etc.) at Eastern were not unionized and had no choice about going to work. They were the innocent victims of a battle between Lorenzo and the pilots/flight attendants/mechanics.

Publisher, if your wife was at Eastern, then you and I have something in common: we both have thoroughly biased views of what happened there. You once suggested that people like FD109, FlyDeltasJets, and myself were "too close" to the problem to be objective. Well, guess what? That goes for you, too. I'm assuming your wife was not a flight attendant, pilot, or mechanic, by the way.

If she was...well, that's bad.

I'm glad you finally cleared the air and told us where you're coming from on this issue. Oh, and on behalf of all the professional pilots on this board, even though I wasn't the perpetrator, I want to apologize to you. Nobody deserves to be compared to Mary Schiavo!