What made Eastern GO Under?

[publisher]

Seriously

Boy everyone on this thread has taken this stuff a bit over board don't you think........

FD109 was playing around and so was I.

Typhoon is probably a nice guy who sees things from his perspective and obviously wants me to agree that his is the correct one.

Your are right, I am not a commercial pilot. What I have done is:
COO of 135/FBO/corporate flight department with it's own leased airport.
General managing partner-- 121 cargo airline
Construction and implementation of Flying Tigers domestic hub
121 head sales and marketing manager for North America
aircraft trader for two major aircraft leasing companies
airline certification, aircraft leasing, and flight attendant training school company I owned.
Publisher and writer

I am old, cranky, and have a bit of experience. In addition, I have owned and operated a number of personal aircraft. I never really set out to be in aviation other than as an aircraft owner/pilot and did not get into it as a business until already having a succesful career in another industry.

I like to debate and circumstances have put me in some very interesting spaces during my lifetime. In some cases, I prefer not to indicate where I got my information or how I came to know them. While I certainly would not say to this group, trust me, the fact is that most of the things I comment on I was close to or involved in.

Even today, I am in constant talks with HR people in every area of aviation, chief pilots, executives, directors of operation, maintenance management, and line personnel.

I have listened to the people here and respect their opinions. In pm's I have offered advice and on occassion, even walked in a resume or two.

I am not the enemy of pilots just because I look from a different vantage point.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Re: Seriously

Boy everyone on this thread has taken this stuff a bit over board don't you think........

FD109 was playing around and so was I.

Typhoon is probably a nice guy who sees things from his perspective and obviously wants me to agree that his is the correct one.

Your are right, I am not a commercial pilot. What I have done is:
COO of 135/FBO/corporate flight department with it's own leased airport.
General managing partner-- 121 cargo airline
Construction and implementation of Flying Tigers domestic hub
121 head sales and marketing manager for North America
aircraft trader for two major aircraft leasing companies
airline certification, aircraft leasing, and flight attendant training school company I owned.
Publisher and writer

I am old, cranky, and have a bit of experience. In addition, I have owned and operated a number of personal aircraft. I never really set out to be in aviation other than as an aircraft owner/pilot and did not get into it as a business until already having a succesful career in another industry.

I like to debate and circumstances have put me in some very interesting spaces during my lifetime. In some cases, I prefer not to indicate where I got my information or how I came to know them. While I certainly would not say to this group, trust me, the fact is that most of the things I comment on I was close to or involved in.

Even today, I am in constant talks with HR people in every area of aviation, chief pilots, executives, directors of operation, maintenance management, and line personnel.

I have listened to the people here and respect their opinions. In pm's I have offered advice and on occassion, even walked in a resume or two.

I am not the enemy of pilots just because I look from a different vantage point.

Publisher,

Now that is a post and perspective that I can respect. Obviously, due to your experience, your slant is going to tend to be pro-management. It stands to reason that many of your views are going to be diametrically opposed to those of labor (us). Nothing wrong with that. If nothing else it makes for some intriguing conversations. Personally, the threads are alot more interesting with your opposing viewpoint.

The rest is just b@ll-breaking and entertaining in and of itself.

As for Typhoon, I can tell you personally, he is a great guy. He only wants you to agree with him because he is[/] correct.

 

[BigFlyr]

Re: last time

I think that the IAM situation, not the pilot situation made it extremely unattractive on top of weak financials, debt load, fleet, etc.

If you're going put the blame on only one group then it has to be upper management (the brains), not the Pilots or the IAM who were the backbone of the company.

In '87 I was hired right out of school to be an Avionics Tech at EAL and I stayed until the strike. It was a shock to see the friction that existed between management and the IAM. We quickly learned who not to trust including those that crossed picket lines at the previous strike many years prior.

The seeds were planted to strike long before it ever happened. Years of concessions, years of lies, years of losses, while top execs bailed out with their golden $$$ parachutes.

The maintenance dept. had the capacity to repair and overhaul everything in EAL's fleet (DC-9, B727, B757, DC-10, L1011, A300...) making it an extremely valuable asset, if properly utilized. At one point, in the mid '80s EAL maint. was making money for the airline as a repair shop for other airlines but management wouldn't have it. They wanted to show their maintenance as an expense, not a profitable entity. By the time Lorenzo took over, he was determined to show everything at EAL as a money loser in justify breaking up the unions and selling it off in pieces.

Did Lorenzo really want EAL to survive? Don't know. The point is, no one knew except he and his buddies.

Did it turn into a battle of egos? Mangement vs unions? Lorenzo vs Charlie Bryan? Sure it did. Everyone lost.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[FD109]

Re: Seriously

Boy everyone on this thread has taken this stuff a bit over board don't you think........

FD109 was playing around and so was I.

....

I am not the enemy of pilots just because I look from a different vantage point.

Publisher,

I can certainly respect your "seriously" post. It's amazing what a few facts will do for making people take you seriously. It sounds like you and I may be chronological contemporaries if not philosophical brothers.

After reading your online "resume," I can certainly understand your feelings about the IAM. There are few friends of the IAM in the aviation business, and I'm certainly not one of them. (I have to say, though, that EAL's various managements did a lot to create the IAM problem.)

Remember, I voted NO on honoring their picket line.

Nevertheless, when I gave my word that I would abide by the majority vote, I kept my word and I can have absolutely no respect for those EAL pilots who were incapable of keeping their word. And the off-the-street SCABs were simply opportunists who were thinking only of themselves and deserve zero respect. This is where you and I have our greatest disagreement.

My management credentials do not match yours, but I have spent about a third of my career in management positions: VP Flight Operations; Director of Training; Director of Operations; and Chief Pilot, all at 121 carriers. There is one thing, though, that I think I understand that I don't think you do: Unions are not the enemy--not necessarily.

Companies have the unions they deserve. Southwest has reasonable unions while many airlines claim they don't. When one of the companies where I was in management got into trouble after the ValuJet crash, the pilots association came to us offering significant concessions to help us survive. I can tell you that we had treated our employees fairly and with respect and they returned the favor.

I'm convinced that employees (unionized or not) respond to competent management when they are convinced that management is trying to run the company for the company's long term benefit and that the employees are partners in that effort. I'm afraid, Publisher, that most managements think of employees as nothing more than office furniture that can be jerked around and discarded if something cheaper can be found.

I'll say it one more time: Companies have the unions they deserve.

Regards,
FD109

 

[Tim47SIP]

Late Defense

Although things have already been streightened out re Publisher, I wanted to come to his defense.

Metro - Now that is a post and perspective that I can respect. Obviously, due to your experience, your slant is going to tend to be pro-management. It stands to reason that many of your views are going to be diametrically opposed to those of labor (us). Nothing wrong with that. If nothing else it makes for some intriguing conversations. Personally, the threads are alot more interesting with your opposing viewpoint.

Like you said, his slant is very important to get both sides of the story. I think he is a very valuable asset even if he does not agree with the masses (labor).

FD - Publisher; I took a bunch of ex Eastern pilots down with me to Africa and they had no interest in getting shot at so there you go. Different strokes for different folks

I have read several accounts of civillian aircraft being shot at all over the African continent. About 1995 or so, I was interviewed and hired to fly Casa 212's in South Africa for Evergreen. I was specifically told by some of the crews that the aircraft did in fact get shot at there all of the time. I was subsequently offered another position with the Mil and decided to stay in the States with my family. Sort of funny though, I went to south America a few times (civillian rescue operations with the Mil, floods, earthquakes, etc.) and got shot at there. Go Figure!

 

[publisher]

FD109

FD109

I agree, I am talking about a very specific union at a very specific time. That is why I get upset when people think that I am stating a philosophy not talking about specific people./

\Tim47

I interviewed a number of people when we first started the Casa program. Ex America types got first nod. I am sure you understand why.

My wife crossed the picket line at Eastern. She loved that company more than I could ever imagine. She was not a union person, just someone who loved every minuite she spent there.

The tragedy of Eastern is that it pitted friends against friends, good people forced into life decisions by people who were out of control.

Some of you might remember when Wolf came to Flying Tigers and the potential strike was settled with a new contract. The fact is that while settled, I knew that day that Wolf was leaving and Flying Tigers would exist no more.

That is what I mean when I say you have to be there. What is in the paper and common knowledge is meaningless. That day it was over.

Comair is the current situation. Life before that strike was one thing. Everything since has been setting it up to do something different. Remember we had this talk/

 

[NYRANGERS]

Re: FD109

FD109

I agree, I am talking about a very specific union at a very specific time. That is why I get upset when people think that I am stating a philosophy not talking about specific people./

\
My wife crossed the picket line at Eastern. She loved that company more than I could ever imagine. She was not a union person, just someone who loved every minuite she spent there.

The tragedy of Eastern is that it pitted friends against friends, good people forced into life decisions by people who were out of control.

You must be very proud.

A SCAB will never be anything more than a SCAB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FD109]

Eastern's Non-contract Employees

Everyone,

I was there through the whole EAL mess and lost everything just like everyone else. However, as much as I despise the SCABs, I have to say that I DO NOT consider Eastern's non-union employees who crossed the line to be SCABs. Those poor people were absolutely caught in the middle with nobody to represent or speak for them.

It's easy to get caught up in the fervor of the issue and I can certainly understand how that happens. I may have done that myself from time to time, and while I will never ever excuse the SCABs for what they did, we need to be very careful that we don't put people in that group who don't deserve to be there.

Regards,
FD109

 

[publisher]

proud

NYRANGERS

I am always proud of her.

There are some people who just have absolutely no interest in this organized labor stuff. They have a job, want to work, love it, and could not care less about the issues of a labor group they have nothing in common with. . WOW, is that a revelation. \\

I know you will find it surprizing that there are people who feel that if you do not like the job you are in and you do not like working for the people you report to, or, you do not like the pay or conditions, you leave and go elsewhere.

Now you may be one of those who wants to be part of an organized group, wants them to negotiate your pay and conditions, who wants them to deal with management. That's OK too if you respect the rights and people who say they do not want to be part of that.

 

[stingray]

There is no way to sugar coat it people.

Definition:
If you cross a picket line, if you are one of the union members or not, YOU ARE A SCAB. PERIOD

Someone doesn't necessarily need to be a member of the union when they cross the picket line. The person becomes a SCAB at that moment, union member or not.