well that was quick.....

[waka]

If you took ALL the money from the wealthy, Ohio (and the US) would still be broke because of the union pensions and medical benefits at retirement.

Show your work.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Awe, that just sucks. I thought your absence from this board indicated that you followed in the footsteps of your cowardly friend with your own suicide.

The suicide was real, and this particular individual had a significant impact on many pilots on this board. It was a situation where a union work action placed him into a position he wouldn't have been in otherwise, and it was the final straw that pushed into the abyss.

Funny of all the things you should remember of my early posts it was that. It also wouldn't be hard to figure out who that was, and once you know who it is, it's easy to figure out who I am. Friend? No. Co-worker? Absolutely.

I used this as early on as an example of what unions can do to the innocent. He certainly was that.

All those families that suffered under the furloughs at NJ and all those that trusted their failed union to protect them.

The only thing that was protected was the high payroll and greed of the upper two/thirds of the seniority list because the rest of them were sacrificed. Unions don't care about their bretheren or whomever else they hurt.

This touched a nerve Waka and wasn't necessary. It was immature, childish and unprofessional. You actually fly for a living?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Be careful what you ask for...

Are you kidding? 35M is paltry compared to money spent by corporate lobbyists. Besides, their statement about controlling costs were in a time that executives weren't paid the exorbitant money that they're paid now. Do you actually think that they're concerned with cost control in regard to their salary bonuses? Think again.

35M is paltry for a good CEO that protects jobs and ensures that a company will remain profitable. Something no union has ever done.

 

[GooseHZ]

lomg time

Hey BT,

how is dallas treating u?

 

[imacdog]

The suicide was real, and this particular individual had a significant impact on many pilots on this board. It was a situation where a union work action placed him into a position he wouldn't have been in otherwise, and it was the final straw that pushed into the abyss.

Funny of all the things you should remember of my early posts it was that. It also wouldn't be hard to figure out who that was, and once you know who it is, it's easy to figure out who I am. Friend? No. Co-worker? Absolutely.

I used this as early on as an example of what unions can do to the innocent. He certainly was that.

All those families that suffered under the furloughs at NJ and all those that trusted their failed union to protect them.

The only thing that was protected was the high payroll and greed of the upper two/thirds of the seniority list because the rest of them were sacrificed. Unions don't care about their bretheren or whomever else they hurt.

This touched a nerve Waka and wasn't necessary. It was immature, childish and unprofessional. You actually fly for a living?

See B, the problem about lying is it's tough to keep your story straight. Here's your post from 2007 on the subject:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1322195&highlight=suicide#post1322195

From CLOSE friends I have personally witnessed: One divorce (3 children involved), One bankruptcy (two children involved), One suicide (two children involved) I have personally been laid off twice as a non-flying pilot in management positions (two children involved).......

So either he was a CLOSE friend (hey you wrote it in caps, not me), or he was just a coworker. Kind of a difference there.

 

[waka]

The suicide was real, and this particular individual had a significant impact on many pilots on this board. It was a situation where a union work action placed him into a position he wouldn't have been in otherwise, and it was the final straw that pushed into the abyss.

Funny of all the things you should remember of my early posts it was that. It also wouldn't be hard to figure out who that was, and once you know who it is, it's easy to figure out who I am. Friend? No. Co-worker? Absolutely.

I used this as early on as an example of what unions can do to the innocent. He certainly was that.

All those families that suffered under the furloughs at NJ and all those that trusted their failed union to protect them.

The only thing that was protected was the high payroll and greed of the upper two/thirds of the seniority list because the rest of them were sacrificed. Unions don't care about their bretheren or whomever else they hurt.

This touched a nerve Waka and wasn't necessary. It was immature, childish and unprofessional. You actually fly for a living?

What a hypocrite and I liar you are. When you first USED this supposed suicide to bolster your propaganda, you said it was a "friend", not just a co-worker. Now, you say he was a co-worker. To boot, who gives you the right to speak for this suicidal maniac and USE it for your own selfish ego boost? Talk about childish and immature.

See, you're just an opportunist and you USED this alleged suicide for your rants.

Touched a nerve my foot. Even if I really did, then you deserve it because you ultimately brought it on yourself. In other words, if the truth hurts, it should. How do you even look at yourself in the mirror?

 

[pilotyip]

WOW talk about thread drift.

 

[B19 Flyer]

What a hypocrite and I liar you are. When you first USED this supposed suicide to bolster your propaganda, you said it was a "friend", not just a co-worker. Now, you say he was a co-worker. To boot, who gives you the right to speak for this suicidal maniac and USE it for your own selfish ego boost? Talk about childish and immature.

See, you're just an opportunist and you USED this alleged suicide for your rants.

Touched a nerve my foot. Even if I really did, then you deserve it because you ultimately brought it on yourself. In other words, if the truth hurts, it should. How do you even look at yourself in the mirror?

Like I said, you're funny about you remember. I rubbed shoulders with this guy for over three years. You want to use nuances with language? I knew his family and went to to the funeral and was there when they buried his urn. That's close enough for me.

Was also close enough to know the impact he had on YOUR career and pretty much every pilot on this board that didn't come up through military flying. Bad things happen to good people. I was close enough to the situation to know that if the work action hadn't happened, I highy doubt the same result would have occurred. Unions don't care about anything but the money.

Now. YOU on the other hand won't comment on the rest of the post because you're gutless, like all of your other union buddies.

Comment on the rest of the post. You tell me why the bottom third of the seniority list is meaningless and why YOU feel it's ok for them to lose their incomes and careers to save those that did nothing more than get hired before them. Doesn't mean they are better pilots, just means they got hired first. Seniority doesn't protect the company, does not protect the traveling public, does not protect the passengers in the airplane or those around them.

Your gutless Waka. I stand by my words. I used the words "CLOSE FRIENDS to also accomodate for the other people I mentioned. Maybe it was because I care about those around me and all you care about is your paycheck and not the welfare of those around you.

Perhaps you don't have any "CLOSE FRIENDS" and can't relate. I don't know.

But what I do know is that a man is dead because of union activity and you think it's a joke.

Done with this subject. You want to discuss all the great things that your union has done to protect the furloughed pilots sacrificed in the name of brotherhood?

Bring it on... that won't be much of a thread. Unions don't protect their brethren, they sacrifice them.

 

[B19 Flyer]

WOW talk about thread drift.

Agreed, my last post is an attempt to get it back on track, but we both know it's not going to happen.

They are more concerned about how I blended "friend" and "coworker" rather than the fact thier union didn't protect thier fellow pilots in a time of need.

 

[pilotyip]

thier union didn't protect thier fellow pilots in a time of need.

You mean like the IBT taking dues out of my severance pay when my airline went out of business. Then telling that they had no obligation to assist any of us in our job search, you mean that kind of union stuff.

 

[imacdog]

But what I do know is that a man is dead because of union activity and you think it's a joke.

Not a joke B, just another one of your lies.

 

[imacdog]

You mean like the IBT taking dues out of my severance pay when my airline went out of business. Then telling that they had no obligation to assist any of us in our job search, you mean that kind of union stuff.

Good to see you around here again, YIP. Is it time again to remind everyone of how your non-union company totally screwed over your pilots, firing people who were on a certain fleet type no matter how long they were with the company, allowing pilots junior to them to keep their jobs just because of the equipment type they were on? You must have been very proud of that, saving your company some extra training costs!

 

[CA1900]

You mean like the IBT taking dues out of my severance pay when my airline went out of business. Then telling that they had no obligation to assist any of us in our job search, you mean that kind of union stuff.

And yet my union, NJASAP, refunded all the dues the furloughees paid, and tried to help with job searches.

Not all unions are the same.

 

[pilotyip]

Good to see you around here again, YIP. Is it time again to remind everyone of how your non-union company totally screwed over your pilots, firing people who were on a certain fleet type no matter how long they were with the company, allowing pilots junior to them to keep their jobs just because of the equipment type they were on? You must have been very proud of that, saving your company some extra training costs!

Shows how much you know, I was against that, I wanted strict seniority, but when your boss says no this is the way we are doing it. You go along, it is a military thing following orders no matter how bad they are, as long as they are not illegal. BTW That policy has been changed by the new DO. Stick seniority in all layoffs, which probably won't be necessary with everyone getting jobs at Spirit, Atlas, etc.

 

[imacdog]

What do you mean, shows what I know? That's what your company did, did it not? This is the type of thing a union prevents, YIP. Be proud of your non-union company's actions.

 

[pilotyip]

What do you mean, shows what I know? That's what your company did, did it not? This is the type of thing a union prevents, YIP. Be proud of your non-union company's actions.

It just sounded like you were blaming me for something I did not do or support. It is only my company because I work there I have very little input other than saying this guy can't fly. BTW After the failed UAW organizing drive in 2003 the company took the Toyota approach. That is be better than the union competetion so your workers won't want a union. I helped write pilot policy handbook put everything in writing and so far the company has lived by the rules

 

[imacdog]

Sorry YIP but all the time you spent on a pilot policy handbook is completely worthless if they do not have a collective bargaining contract to enforce it. Everything you wrote can and will be changed by management to their satisfaction. That is what you want though, isn't it? Management having the ability to do whatever they please without a union getting in the way with pesky contracts?

 

[pilotyip]

Sorry YIP but all the time you spent on a pilot policy handbook is completely worthless if they do not have a collective bargaining contract to enforce it. Everything you wrote can and will be changed by management to their satisfaction. That is what you want though, isn't it? Management having the ability to do whatever they please without a union getting in the way with pesky contracts?

Not at all, I tried my hardest to make it a good place to work with whatever influence I had as a recruiter and training guy. In many ways a union contract would have been easier to manage the pilots, easier to discipline, easier to fire, it establishes very clear cut rules. But the uppers did not want that, so as a good soldier I charge up whatever hill they wanted. Thing that bugged me about being in a union. for the union guys nothing was ever good enought for them, there always had to be an issue.

I established one the finest training programs that ever eixsited at the lower end of the airline industry. I have seen the guys I hired and trained go on to career jobs at DAL, UAL, UPS, FedEx, NJ etc. Many have stayed in touch with me; thanking me for giving them the foundation that allowed them to succeed at next level. They have also told me that the training at their next job in most cases was no better than what they got under my watch. And in many cases much worse. That is what life is all about mentoring, giving to others to see them succeed. That is all that matters my scoreboard.

 

[imacdog]

easier to fire

Actually your company proved it quite easy to fire whoever they wanted when business slowed down.

 

[OPECJet]

On a lighter note... Way to go GV guys (and all the other company w************************* picking up voluntary extended days). Thankfully there are more pilots not participating than are. Expect of course in the GV. Wouldn't surprise me if there are brown stains on the radomes....

 

[BentOver]

The Gulfstream guys sure appear to be NJA's weakest link.

But the rest are pretty sad too...... Nearly a 1000 extended days accepted.. Unreal... I've never been less proud to be a former NJA pilot. Always thought it was the airline guys who ate their young.. Apparently that trickles down to NJA pilots also.

If we ever return I will definitely be all for one.. The "one" being myself.

 

[OPECJet]

We're not going to get the chance. If the extenders are the guys with furlough targets on their backs, I'm cool with that. If not, you're trash.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I was shocked by those numbers too Opec. Mainly because I haven't flown or even been offered an extended day in almost THREE YEARS.

But you see, I am not an international bubba. And as someone else from the fleet tried to point out on that OTHER board, the long international itineraries actually do necessitate some extended days to make them work. A BE400 driver claimed there is no reason for the statistics to be so skewed. He couldn't be more wrong and it betrays a total lack of understanding about the GLC mission.

I'm on 7-7 and I don't extend. But have you looked at who comprises the VAST majority of 18 day line holders in the GLC? Enlightening. As long as there are people on the 18 day schedule, I'm not going to throw rocks at extenders.

 

[OPECJet]

I was shocked by those numbers too Opec. Mainly because I haven't flown or even been offered an extended day in almost THREE YEARS.

But you see, I am not an international bubba. And as someone else from the fleet tried to point out on that OTHER board, the long international itineraries actually do necessitate some extended days to make them work. A BE400 driver claimed there is no reason for the statistics to be so skewed. He couldn't be more wrong and it betrays a total lack of understanding about the GLC mission.

I'm on 7-7 and I don't extend. But have you looked at who comprises the VAST majority of 18 day line holders in the GLC? Enlightening. As long as there are people on the 18 day schedule, I'm not going to throw rocks at extenders.

Gut, I thought about that and my thinking is that the A Team is alive and well. I realize the G5 does a lot of extended international trips, but if 7 day tours don't work, the company needs to go back to the negotiating table.

 

[G4dude]

I was shocked by those numbers too Opec. Mainly because I haven't flown or even been offered an extended day in almost THREE YEARS.

But you see, I am not an international bubba. And as someone else from the fleet tried to point out on that OTHER board, the long international itineraries actually do necessitate some extended days to make them work. A BE400 driver claimed there is no reason for the statistics to be so skewed. He couldn't be more wrong and it betrays a total lack of understanding about the GLC mission.

I'm on 7-7 and I don't extend. But have you looked at who comprises the VAST majority of 18 day line holders in the GLC? Enlightening. As long as there are people on the 18 day schedule, I'm not going to throw rocks at extenders.

What is it about the 18 day pilots that would be enlightening?

 

[BentOver]

I was shocked by those numbers too Opec. Mainly because I haven't flown or even been offered an extended day in almost THREE YEARS.

But you see, I am not an international bubba. And as someone else from the fleet tried to point out on that OTHER board, the long international itineraries actually do necessitate some extended days to make them work. A BE400 driver claimed there is no reason for the statistics to be so skewed. He couldn't be more wrong and it betrays a total lack of understanding about the GLC mission.

I'm on 7-7 and I don't extend. But have you looked at who comprises the VAST majority of 18 day line holders in the GLC? Enlightening. As long as there are people on the 18 day schedule, I'm not going to throw rocks at extenders.

It's atleast a little better to know that it's being discussed on your side of NJASAP. Our side is losing many of the people who used to post. Most have probably moved on or just don't care any more. Either way, there is very little discussion going on our side.

 

[Pervis]

What is it about the 18 day pilots that would be enlightening?

Nothing earth shattering. Some would argue that it provides an extra 2.8 days/month per pilot on that schedule, and if no one bid it, company would be forced to consider recalling pilots.

The fact is the schedule can only be reduced up to 10% every bid period, so it would take years for that schedule to go away, even with 100% participation.

Before anyone gets all hell bent over the GLC folks, read section 19.9 of the CBA regarding international flying. Management refuses to use that provision, and instead elects to pay those folks extended days. And if you think airlining crews around the planet makes more economic sense, I'm just glad you're not in management, or none of us would have a job.

 

[BentOver]

Nothing earth shattering. Some would argue that it provides an extra 2.8 days/month per pilot on that schedule, and if no one bid it, company would be forced to consider recalling pilots.

The fact is the schedule can only be reduced up to 10% every bid period, so it would take years for that schedule to go away, even with 100% participation.

Before anyone gets all hell bent over the GLC folks, read section 19.9 of the CBA regarding international flying. Management refuses to use that provision, and instead elects to pay those folks extended days. And if you think airlining crews around the planet makes more economic sense, I'm just glad you're not in management, or none of us would have a job.

says the man who contributed to the 1000 extended days.... sorry Pervis, I am thoroughly disgusted with a large portion of this pilot group. Gloves are off towards anyone who voluntarily extends. Or supports the idea.

Hopefully SIC's will use peer pressure to their advantage and stop this total lack of solidarity.

Like M.L. says. NJA managment has the tools, the market share, and the money coming in. They DO NOT need pilots to extend to make the operation work. It is not the pilots job to cover their lack of management. It has already been shown that extending will not keep owners. Or else we wouldn't be seeing owners still leaving more than they are coming in. That theory went out the window a long time ago.

As far as the 18 day schedule. It would take a long time for it to be dwindled down. But that doesn't mean there needs to be 100% participation every bid period. And I'd bet there are still guys bidding it who can't hold it. Kinda like a Packers season ticket. The line is long...

 

[imacdog]

The 750 was pretty high in the ranking. Way to go team!

 

[Pervis]

says the man who contributed to the 1000 extended days.... sorry Pervis, I am thoroughly disgusted with a large portion of this pilot group. Gloves are off towards anyone who voluntarily extends. Or supports the idea.

I extended one day in the last 5 years, last December, and had the support of the Eboard. Don't even spread BS about things you know not.