well that was quick.....

[B19 Flyer]

Be careful what you ask for...

Sorry B19 I'm not taking the bait! I posted truth and if a management troll like yourself can't handle it tough. We're in a weak economy with a model that has run it's course. If NJA needs to furlough then furlough! They don't need to keep threatening and picking a fight. The Globals are a carrot and I truly believe that there is no one in management with the ability to right this ship.The attacks on the union and the pilot group prove this. I want you to give me solid evidence instead of innuendo as to how the contract is harming the company. Is it the 401k match? Okay let's negotiate a deal then. Is it healthcare? Another easy negotiation. Is it pay? There's another. What is it exactly? Oh I know your answer, SCOPE. Sorry that, BS isn't going to fly. You people simply want to downsize and outsource. Guess what you might as well close the doors because customers want to ride in their own aircraft with gold ties not mom and pop charter. Nice try though. Try actually running the company. How about retooling operations and making it efficient. Yeah that would be a good start. That won't happen though because we have to make this a battle to cover your own incompetence as a manager.

You're a newbe so I'll fill you in on one of my primary complaints about unions.

Unions claim they are there to support the brotherhood with jobs but never hesitate to sacrifice the bottom third of the seniority list to save the wages of the top. Instead of opening the contract to save jobs, they will furlough instead. You see, this is why I stopped posting. The rhetoric never changes... squeeze that golden goose till it chokes to death and ruins everything around it for everybody but blame managment rather than themselves.

It's clear though, you've been drinking the Kool-aide. (What flavor is it this time Grizz?) You know all the stuff I've said has cycled through, right Grizz? How many more jobs will be sacrificed Grizz before the contract is opened and those families can depend on those jobs? Union promised job security, right? Furloughs won't get it done Grizz.. need to open the contract to reduce cost.

Here's your boy here saying they should furlough or close the doors. Bet that leaves a warm and fuzzy with the bottom third of the list!

 

[Pervis]

Top ten took a combined $30 MILLION pay cut when DS took over, and those positions are still filled. Who choked the goose then, the pilots? Hardly.

 

[KiddDynomite]

Why are guys arguing with this troll? You feed a troll and he just keeps coming back. He can't scare up a set of cojones to post using his real name - therefore to me - his posted opinion is absolutely worthless. Treat it as such, ignore his ignorant ass and he'll go away.

Hey Griz,

You're absolutely right, the guy's a troll. I love these management types or lackies and how they have to cover their incompetence by pushing the blame on a contract that was agreed too. No one put a gun to management's head when it was signed. Pathetic. By the way he never did post the specifics that I asked him to. Once again, pathetic.

 

[CA1900]

Unions claim they are there to support the brotherhood with jobs but never hesitate to sacrifice the bottom third of the seniority list to save the wages of the top.

And yet, the NetJets pilot union did exactly what was needed when asked by the company. It was only when the insider-trading slimeball was brought in that these voluntary measures were replaced with furloughs.

The pilots and the union did their part -- management didn't.

Furloughs won't get it done Grizz.. need to open the contract to reduce cost.

Here's your boy here saying they should furlough or close the doors. Bet that leaves a warm and fuzzy with the bottom third of the list!

I'm at the bottom of that bottom third, and I agree with it. I don't want a "fuzzy." I want pay and benefits commensurate with the service I provide. If I wanted a secure but low-paying, crappy-benefits job, I'd be at the regionals.

We're still underpaid for the service and wealth of experience we provide our owners. I'm not willing to take a concession to subsidize private jet travel.

Welcome back from your hiatus, by the way. :laugh:

 

[BentOver]

It's always an accomplishment when management spends time on a pilot msg. board. I get gratification knowing they are that pathetic to spend their time trying their best to blame the Unions on the companies plight!!

It means they are really that inept at their jobs and have no other resources available to them to increase business. They are out of coherent ideas and have nothing left but to try to blame the Union so they can try to save their own jobs.

"Oh Mr. Buffett..It was that darn Union that kept me from selling shares and turning this place around after 3+ years. They just wouldn't let us decrease their pay/scope/benefits/work rules whenever we wanted to. I mean, they don't have families to support or any sort of job expectations.. They're the one to blame, not me sir....."

 

[G4dude]

"THE UNION" got you your 7 and 7 schedule, holiday pay, OT, protected your zero premium health care and 401k contributions.

And yet, I still dislike the union. I dislike the us versus them mentality, the aggressive postings on sites like this which are designed to drive honest dissenters away. Wolfpackpilot doesn't post here any more because of it. He is the only guy here, by the way, who knows who I am. Which is just one of the line pilots. Representing only myself, although most of my colleagues on the IV (former NJI, not the newer NJA transfers) and V agree with me, they just don't have the energy to debate you morons. We discuss this stuff on the road incessantly, and are very worried y'all will render NJA uncompetitive.

 

[Hogprint]

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]And yet, the NetJets pilot union did exactly what was needed when asked by the company. It was only when the insider-trading slimeball was brought in that these voluntary measures were replaced with furloughs.

The pilots and the union did their part -- management didn't.



I'm at the bottom of that bottom third, and I agree with it. I don't want a "fuzzy." I want pay and benefits commensurate with the service I provide. If I wanted a secure but low-paying, crappy-benefits job, I'd be at the regionals.

We're still underpaid for the service and wealth of experience we provide our owners. I'm not willing to take a concession to subsidize private jet travel.

Welcome back from your hiatus, by the way. :laugh:

That about sums it up I'd say! Great post CA1900! You'd think these management types would be embarrassed to even come on here in light of DS's very public insider trading scandal, yet they just cant help themselves!

Note to concern mang trolls...this tactic didn't work in '05,'07, and It isn't going to work in '11-'12.

 

[G4dude]

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]And yet, the NetJets pilot union did exactly what was needed when asked by the company. It was only when the insider-trading slimeball was brought in that these voluntary measures were replaced with furloughs.

The pilots and the union did their part -- management didn't.



I'm at the bottom of that bottom third, and I agree with it. I don't want a "fuzzy." I want pay and benefits commensurate with the service I provide. If I wanted a secure but low-paying, crappy-benefits job, I'd be at the regionals.

We're still underpaid for the service and wealth of experience we provide our owners. I'm not willing to take a concession to subsidize private jet travel.

Welcome back from your hiatus, by the way. :laugh:

Our competitors can staff with equally good pilots at 60 percent of the cost. How does NJA compete with that? Even if management were Einsteins, they would not be able to overcome such a structural disadvantage. Look at GM. Toyota had labor costs, in the US, of half what GM had, and union types were STILL saying GM's problems were poor management!

 

[G4dude]

That about sums it up I'd say! Great post CA1900! You'd think these management types would be embarrassed to even come on here in light of DS's very public insider trading scandal, yet they just cant help themselves!

Note to concern mang trolls...this tactic didn't work in '05,'07, and It isn't going to work in '11-'12.

You are going to drive us out of business, I'm afraid. Job loss number 12 for me. What a shame. You union crazies are even crazier than I thought.

 

[Hogprint]

You are going to drive us out of business, I'm afraid. Job loss number 12 for me. What a shame. You union crazies are even crazier than I thought.

Let's review the track record again...

CA1900 posted it very eloquently. The pilots took early outs, LOA's, and reduced sched's to mitigate furloughs. We did what was asked.

The Management team brought (forced?) in slashed and burned (have you forgotten Black Thursday already?) and ultimately the brainchild had to step down in disgrace because of an insider trading scandal (Lubrizol anyone?).

Now either you're willingly glossing over the facts of our recent history or you're just ignorant of it. Which is it?

 

[KiddDynomite]

Our competitors can staff with equally good pilots at 60 percent of the cost. How does NJA compete with that? Even if management were Einsteins, they would not be able to overcome such a structural disadvantage. Look at GM. Toyota had labor costs, in the US, of half what GM had, and union types were STILL saying GM's problems were poor management!

I hate to break it to you G4 but NJA was always, let me repeat that, ALWAYS, more expensive than the competition. We were more expensive when we were paid less than the FLOPS pilots, oh, and let's not bring in FLOPS because I was there two, an original, so I know first hand. Our contract is not the problem. The problem is a depressed economy, unnecessary and artificial growth when all the competitors were shrinking and now an inept group of managers who cannot adjust the business plan or model so they do the obvious, blame labor. When DS gutted the casino that was one of the worst things he could have done. Sure there was overlap and some cuts were needed but he cut essential things that were implemented to increase efficiency. They have exacerbated the situation. Scope is not the problem. I'll offer this take away the financial penalty but not limit would that convince you? I don't think so. You just have a hatred for unions. Let me tell you something FLOPS needed one and what happened to me there would never have happened at NJA, why? Because of a UNION! When you have the lunatics running the asylum like they did you need straightjackets and that straightjacket is a union! Get used to it. Focus on maintaing the great customer service you and all of us provide and keeping our clients happy. Trust if you ever have a situation and you need their help you'll be thankful for it and don't tell me it won't or can't happen because it can happen to any of us.

 

[Pervis]

G4, reread my post #152. I didn't pull that number out of my arse. At 100k each, that's 300 pilot salaries. It wasn't the union who cost the company in years past. The waste and bad decisions added to the incredible costs, not the pilots. It's no secret that one of the few good things DS did was trim a lot of fat. In fact, he trimmed $100 MILLION in the first 5 weeks, including "consultants" that made 7 figures to design Hamburgler paint schemes.

Remember, and I'm only using this as historical data, until 2005, NJI pilots made a LOT more money than NJA pilots. The reasons one side was favored is irrelevent. The task the union undertook was to reach a QOL level for all of us, recognizing way before management would even admit that we are indeed one company. Had we all been treated as you were before late 2005, the union would not have been so aggressive. Most importantly, the first full year of business after the '05 CBA took effect, NJA made more money than ever before in 2006.

Every single company that has seen downturns have blamed the employees for everything from bad decisions to reduced sales. Tactics to divide groups is nothing new. No one wants the company to shut its doors. And remember, there are just as many "crazies" in management as there are in the union.

Without a union, can you imagine nearly 3000 individual employees negotiating for themselves? Merit based pay for a highly skilled group like ours is unattainable. Certain rules and guidelines need to be established, in writing, and need to be reviewed and ammended from time to time. That's the purpose of a CBA. Without it, can you imagine what our situation would be like right now? Do you think DS or HJ would treat you or anyone else like RTS did? Especially in times like these, our union is essential to stability.

What is unfortunate is the apparant need by some to stir the pot, so to speak, and keep the indians riled up. That comes from both sides. You only see one of those sides here, except for the inputs from a few management trolls whose sole purpose is to keep stirring that pot.

 

[G4dude]

G4, reread my post #152. I didn't pull that number out of my arse. At 100k each, that's 300 pilot salaries. It wasn't the union who cost the company in years past. The waste and bad decisions added to the incredible costs, not the pilots. It's no secret that one of the few good things DS did was trim a lot of fat. In fact, he trimmed $100 MILLION in the first 5 weeks, including "consultants" that made 7 figures to design Hamburgler paint schemes.

Remember, and I'm only using this as historical data, until 2005, NJI pilots made a LOT more money than NJA pilots. The reasons one side was favored is irrelevent. The task the union undertook was to reach a QOL level for all of us, recognizing way before management would even admit that we are indeed one company. Had we all been treated as you were before late 2005, the union would not have been so aggressive. Most importantly, the first full year of business after the '05 CBA took effect, NJA made more money than ever before in 2006.

Every single company that has seen downturns have blamed the employees for everything from bad decisions to reduced sales. Tactics to divide groups is nothing new. No one wants the company to shut its doors. And remember, there are just as many "crazies" in management as there are in the union.

Without a union, can you imagine nearly 3000 individual employees negotiating for themselves? Merit based pay for a highly skilled group like ours is unattainable. Certain rules and guidelines need to be established, in writing, and need to be reviewed and ammended from time to time. That's the purpose of a CBA. Without it, can you imagine what our situation would be like right now? Do you think DS or HJ would treat you or anyone else like RTS did? Especially in times like these, our union is essential to stability.

What is unfortunate is the apparant need by some to stir the pot, so to speak, and keep the indians riled up. That comes from both sides. You only see one of those sides here, except for the inputs from a few management trolls whose sole purpose is to keep stirring that pot.

Fair enough. I would point out, however, that NJI's higher pay was at a NON UNION workplace. Yet we were more productive, and made the company more profit even while we made more money as pilots, all due to our higher productivity, not being constrained by a rigid contract and the class warfare mentality that accompanies it. I believe a union is the wrong answer to the right question, which is "How are pilots to receive the best compensation, job security, and fair treatment in an enjoyable workplace, while returning a good profit to the shareholders?" You and I care about the same things, we just have different solutions. That goes for Grizz, Bentover, Fischman, at al.

 

[Pervis]

I'm not sure that I'd agree one or another is more productive or not. For example, I've blocked nearly 500 hrs this year already, flying more/shorter legs than the large cabin aircraft typically do, due to the nature of the mission. I would be all for some type of incentive for productivity bonuses for whichever fleet earns it though.

As far as the non-union shop, there is no question RTS hated the IBT, as we all learned to. We paid the price for it, while you enjoyed the consequences, until a deal was brokered to break away from them. I don't believe he hated unions per say, and in fact he shared a much improved working relationship with NJASAP. The new union, its leadership, and the pilots proved how well we could all work together once the adversarial approach was abandoned.

At this point, the strain has returned. Some exacerbated by the union, I'll grant you that. Emotions tend to run high in troubling times. However, blatant departure from a legally binding agreement does not foster a good working environment, under any circumstances. The union and RTS worked together feverishly in 2008 to mitigate the impact of the economic meltdown. DS and JH have destroyed that relationship in very short order.

Yes, we have the same goals in mind. The union is the best way, in my opinion, as long as the goal of productivity and stability is shared by both sides. It is true some unions have destroyed companies. Ours is not one of those. Will there be conflict at times? Certainly. When two professional groups work together though, we can work through those conflicts to everyone's mutual advantage, rather than individual "good deals".

 

[brokeflyer]

Our competitors can staff with equally good pilots at 60 percent of the cost. How does NJA compete with that? Even if management were Einsteins, they would not be able to overcome such a structural disadvantage. Look at GM. Toyota had labor costs, in the US, of half what GM had, and union types were STILL saying GM's problems were poor management!

tell them you want a pay cut....





yeah thats what i thought.lol