Virgin America Revenue...

[ASADFW7]

This thread stays, you all can ignore specific users, and not respond to attacks. There will always be a back and forth that represents the anonymous feature of the internet.

 

[PCL_128]

So? JetBlue Airbus pilots are amongst the highest paid A320 drivers in the country. Factor in that they don't lose 1.95% (that's almost 3,000 dollars for someone who makes $150k) and they come out damn near top compared to other major/legacy A320 pilots.

JetBlue pilots pay the highest insurance rates in the industry by far, and have no retirement plan other than a 401k. Their work rules are changed on a whim, and they have ZERO merger or scope protections. Your focus is too narrow. There is a lot more to a CBA than a pay rate.

 

[waveflyer]

+1 pcl

 

[waveflyer]

I encourage both VA and JB to union up- all the ford and Harrison lines are tired. Each of your execs has lawyers - and a contract they defend against all reason- but you can't ?
It doesn't have to lead to contention as SWA proves every day. When someone doesn't want you represented, it's bc they want to take advantage of you. Not letting execs take advantage of you and conduct business properly isn't having a bad attitude or being inflexible.
But I refuse to treat you all differently, and hope you each come to this conclusion as professional adults. Every other major financial item in your life is spelled out under contract, from your cell phone, cable, lease or mortgage, - why would you not have the terms of your professional life spelled out clearly in black and white, mutually binding contract- legally recognized under the rla -

 

[waveflyer]

(shakes head,) such a flamer

 

[Mamma]

It's called capitalism fubi. Your union isn't strong enough because most pilots (most americans) have been convinced to support anti-union politicians who stack the deck against labor.

I think its a generational and military thing. Military is mostly conservative. I guess those are the kind drawn to service. On the younger side, many young officers are appalled and amazed when they meed at young liberal officer. Just my experience though. Oh, and many Americans have a tough time swallowing the BS from the lib side anyway and vote on other issues important to them aside of labor.

 

[pilotpm]

I encourage both VA and JB to union up- all the ford and Harrison lines are tired. Each of your execs has lawyers - and a contract they defend against all reason- but you can't ?
It doesn't have to lead to contention as SWA proves every day. When someone doesn't want you represented, it's bc they want to take advantage of you. Not letting execs take advantage of you and conduct business properly isn't having a bad attitude or being inflexible.
But I refuse to treat you all differently, and hope you each come to this conclusion as professional adults. Every other major financial item in your life is spelled out under contract, from your cell phone, cable, lease or mortgage, - why would you not have the terms of your professional life spelled out clearly in black and white, mutually binding contract- legally recognized under the rla -

I think that we will eventually "union up". But, we will do it on OUR terms. We will not be pushed by outside influences. I don't think you will see ALPA on the property. The Teamsters are totally inappropriate. That leaves VAPA. I think you will eventually see an independent union here. But why would we do it now? I prefer to allow the company to max out what they are willingly going to give us before we go into 4-5 years of status quo while negotiating our first contract. The timing is not right. So as a result we must put up with tools like Fubi/Fish. Whatever, I'm fine with my choices and could give a rats @ss if Fishubi doesn't like it.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

+1 pilotpm. I agree with you completely.

 

[waveflyer]

Which is why I've defended you against fubi, and all others on the union thing- self determination is an important concept in America- but I disagree with your logic.
Just remember that fear of the status quo period is chapter 2 from ford and Harrison - they are very good at always convincing 51% that the time isn't right, and providing just enough carrot to keep you from legitimate representation.

I think that we will eventually "union up". But, we will do it on OUR terms. We will not be pushed by outside influences. I don't think you will see ALPA on the property. The Teamsters are totally inappropriate. That leaves VAPA. I think you will eventually see an independent union here. But why would we do it now? I prefer to allow the company to max out what they are willingly going to give us before we go into 4-5 years of status quo while negotiating our first contract. The timing is not right. So as a result we must put up with tools like Fubi/Fish. Whatever, I'm fine with my choices and could give a rats @ss if Fishubi doesn't like it.

 

[ASADFW7]

I apologize for not doing a better job moderating this thread for professional exchange for everyone. Another infraction has been given for creating an insulting thread creep.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Wave, I hear you loud & clear on the fear of status quo issue. We have a lot of young guys with the mindset of "no way around it, get it over with now" so I am not worried about this tactic. The company traditionally announces the mid year pay raise early in the year, and this year there are rumors coming from management types that we will be brought up to average in order to better compete for pilots and stem the growing attrition. We will see if those rumors are going to pan out, as management themselves have set the expectation level high.

As to you signature line, I disagree! While this year LSU and Bama were 1 for 1 (but the rematch was pretty decisive), last year Auburn ran the table. War Damn Eagle! (and yes, the BCS needs fixing)

 

[Lake Alice]

Which is why I've defended you against fubi, and all others on the union thing- self determination is an important concept in America- but I disagree with your logic.
Just remember that fear of the status quo period is chapter 2 from ford and Harrison - they are very good at always convincing 51% that the time isn't right, and providing just enough carrot to keep you from legitimate representation.

Just a fact or two to point out. A contract does not take 4-5 years. This rhetoric is straight out of the F/H playbook. If you look at the last few contracts signed they were completed in less than 2 years. The organization effort will easily take 1 year but the contract itself is entirely dependent on how well the pilot group and the airline work together.
Jetblue, via, F/H, told the ranks a contract would take 5 years. When asked DIRECTLY why a PEA under the DR would take months yet a contract under a CBA would take 5 years the answer was "thats what ALPA wants".

If VX goes the route of VAPA it's success will be dependent more so on managements desire to negotiate rather than the pilots.

What truly amazed me was our pilots group ability to buy into their false and misleading rhetoric.

 

[MBCP]

The upcoming IPO is terrific leverage to get a contract settled quickly. There is no way Cush wants to IPO with a union contract open. That would decimate the return.

Vote in VAPA and negotiate a piece of the IPO, using the IPO itself to force the company to negotiate.

This talk of $15-25K for FOUNDERS is a JOKE!

 

[Lake Alice]

The upcoming IPO is terrific leverage to get a contract settled quickly. There is no way Cush wants to IPO with a union contract open. That would decimate the return.

Vote in VAPA and negotiate a piece of the IPO, using the IPO itself to force the company to negotiate.

This talk of $15-25K for FOUNDERS is a JOKE!

It may be a joke but it will buy off many of your pilots. Having had your irish check airman on the jumpseat, who's already anti-union, will ensure every new hire you have votes against a union. Our check airman were in a similar position and talk to one of our new hires if you have a chance.

 

[aircombat]

JetBlue pilots pay the highest insurance rates in the industry by far, and have no retirement plan other than a 401k. Their work rules are changed on a whim, and they have ZERO merger or scope protections. Your focus is too narrow. There is a lot more to a CBA than a pay rate.

Their scope protection is not having ALPA on property. The threat of a union is much more powerful than having a union and it's free. Mentioning ALPA with scope protection is laughable if you actually look at the industry.

 

[PCL_128]

The threat of a union is much more powerful than having a union and it's free.

Tell me that after you've been fired without just cause, or your job has been outsourced because you had no scope protections, or you get stapled to the bottom of a list in a merger. Your rhetoric is straight out of the union buster's handbook, and it holds no water.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Deleted for lack of really caring.

 

[pilotpm]

Just a fact or two to point out. A contract does not take 4-5 years. This rhetoric is straight out of the F/H playbook. If you look at the last few contracts signed they were completed in less than 2 years. The organization effort will easily take 1 year but the contract itself is entirely dependent on how well the pilot group and the airline work together.
Jetblue, via, F/H, told the ranks a contract would take 5 years. When asked DIRECTLY why a PEA under the DR would take months yet a contract under a CBA would take 5 years the answer was "thats what ALPA wants".

If VX goes the route of VAPA it's success will be dependent more so on managements desire to negotiate rather than the pilots.

What truly amazed me was our pilots group ability to buy into their false and misleading rhetoric.

Sorry, but I have been a part of a 4 year first ALPA contract negotiation. Also been a part of a 7 year IBT/ALPA second contract negotiation. I do agree that it may take less time at VX. I and others are waiting to see what the latest raise and work rules improvements get us. For now the Co. does not warrant a union. When they deserve it, they will get it. Before the haters jump in with "It's not the Co. but the pilots that deserve it", we will do this on OUR TERMS!

 

[MBCP]

The airline will not IPO until any labor contracts are settled. That is a HUGE incentive to negotiate, and this is the ONLY time in our life time that we will have this kind of leverage.

 

[aircombat]

Tell me that after you've been fired without just cause, or your job has been outsourced because you had no scope protections, or you get stapled to the bottom of a list in a merger. Your rhetoric is straight out of the union buster's handbook, and it holds no water.

I suppose you have many examples of non union airlines that have been stapled or have lost their jobs do to lack of scope. I can list thousands of ALPA pilots that lost their jobs to scope relaxation.

 

[MBCP]

I suppose you have many examples of non union airlines that have been stapled or have lost their jobs do to lack of scope. I can list thousands of ALPA pilots that lost their jobs to scope relaxation.

Are you really arguing that scope is a bad thing? SWAPA pilots have a strong scope clause that has protected their jobs and allowed them the leverage they have to be paid well and have their jobs protected.

Virgin America and JetBlue pilots have NO scope protection. And you are actually arguing that that's a good thing. I hate to call people names on here, but you, my friend, are an idiot.

 

[aircombat]

Are you really arguing that scope is a bad thing?

You completely missed my argument. Scope is good. Saying that ALPA upholds scope is laughable. You are paying for false protection. As you pointed out only in house unions have been successful in that area. Airlines with unions, especially ALPA, are the only ones that scope out work. They do it to limit the reach of the unions. ALPA=expect your job to be scoped out. If you have examples to the contrary I'm still listening.

 

[jayme]

I'm pretty sure you don't know how scope works.

The union scopes out work, not the company.

They do that to limit what the company can outsource.

For example, Delta can't sell a seat on a plane with a Delta flight number operated by another airline unless the pilots sign off on it. Delta pilots are ALPA. DAPLA, unfortunately, did sign away some of their scope. What exists keeps current Delta pilot jobs more secure than they would be without their scope clause.

 

[MBCP]

What he said. That's the whole reason why Skywest CRJ 900's don't have 90 seats, and why Skywest doesn't fly 737's. ALPA-negotiated scope.

 

[hyflyin]

Wave, I hear you loud & clear on the fear of status quo issue. We have a lot of young guys with the mindset of "no way around it, get it over with now" so I am not worried about this tactic. The company traditionally announces the mid year pay raise early in the year, and this year there are rumors coming from management types that we will be brought up to average in order to better compete for pilots and stem the growing attrition. We will see if those rumors are going to pan out, as management themselves have set the expectation level high.

As to you signature line, I disagree! While this year LSU and Bama were 1 for 1 (but the rematch was pretty decisive), last year Auburn ran the table. War Damn Eagle! (and yes, the BCS needs fixing)

We must be reading different company threads because our largest kool aid drinker published this post from DC last december,"the board has already agreed around a $5 per hour increase for all pilots next year".

We will be no near "industry standard" in 2012 nor probably 2015 for that matter.

It is time for us to take control of our futures or we will be light years behind, just like Jetblue.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Their scope protection is not having ALPA on property. The threat of a union is much more powerful than having a union and it's free..

Wow, two inaccuracies in two sentences. As others have pointed out, get yourself in trouble, have a legal or medical issue or want stable, negotiated pay rates and that 1.9% is a bargain.

Before the haters jump in with "It's not the Co. but the pilots that deserve it", we will do this on OUR TERMS!

I agree. If you continue to try to do it on your individual terms, you do deserve what you get. However, what you get drags down what I get and I don't deserve that consequence of your folly.

Are you really arguing that scope is a bad thing? SWAPA pilots have a strong scope clause that has protected their jobs and allowed them the leverage they have to be paid well and have their jobs protected.

Exactly.

Virgin America and JetBlue pilots have NO scope protection. And you are actually arguing that that's a good thing. I hate to call people names on here, but you, my friend, are an idiot.

Again, exactly right. Although in jetBlue's case they negated the need by flying the 100 seaters on their own seniority list.

 

[pilotpm]

I agree. If you continue to try to do it on your individual terms, you do deserve what you get. However, what you get drags down what I get and I don't deserve that consequence of your folly.

Again, I could give a rats @ss what you think. I care only what I and my fellow VX pilots think.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Again, I could give a rats @ss what you think. I care only what I and my fellow VX pilots think.

Obviously. None of you care for anyone but yourselves. Hopefully, I'll be long gone before the consequences of your actions come home to roost on the airline piloting profession.

You're making your bed...you're going to have to sleep in it.

 

[ASADFW7]

Here is where Fubijaakr is taking the comparisons to slant to their thinking. Every time there is a start up all the pilots start at the bottom and work their way up. Many of those pilots are professionally trained from other airlines. The pay rates are not great but they are better than being out of the industry. Many start ups now are niche and low cost carriers. Their market percentage begins with a fraction of the market. Yes they have an impact on the market, however beating down the individual is not always the best way to make your point. Collectively, there are many efforts to help other carriers organize when asked. The environments are hostile when trying to organize a union. It is easier to throw stones from the outside then make decisions when it is the food on your kitchen table that matters too.

The tactic of belittling others is not drawing people to your thinking. It is simply poor communication, and recruitment technique and shows limited appeal and empathy towards others.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

We must be reading different company threads because our largest kool aid drinker published this post from DC last december,"the board has already agreed around a $5 per hour increase for all pilots next year".

We will be no near "industry standard" in 2012 nor probably 2015 for that matter.

It is time for us to take control of our futures or we will be light years behind, just like Jetblue.

hyflyin,

I read that thread as well and agree it doesn't jive with the direct comment to me from a flight ops manager. Time will tell which one of them is right, and I am guessing DC is closer to the truth.