Virgin America Revenue...

[Ralph Cramden]

Is VX hiring?

Yes..

 

[Lake Alice]

NE

You worked for an ALPA carrier that provided you with medical, retirement, safety, training and the ability to build time. You were not provided with industry leading salary.
For all the complaints you have regarding ALPA and it's policies I must point out you wouldn't be at VX without the SLP you worked for. Without a major agreeing to outsource flying to your SLP you would probably still be years behind where you are now.

If you understood finances a little better you would know under deregulation a Major cannot fly a 319 into Omaha or equivalent to smaller size markets and make a profit. In order for these communities to be served an SLP was contracted. Could the majors themselves flown those aircraft like Air Canada does, yes, but as Air Canada has learned these aircraft are unprofitable regardless of the load.

Part of your rant is in response to Fubi. We all get that. The rest is harboring on ignorance. Pilots want to protect their jobs. VX's is a bane on the industry. Jetblue was.

 

[NEDude]

NE

You worked for an ALPA carrier that provided you with medical, retirement, safety, training and the ability to build time. You were not provided with industry leading salary.
For all the complaints you have regarding ALPA and it's policies I must point out you wouldn't be at VX without the SLP you worked for. Without a major agreeing to outsource flying to your SLP you would probably still be years behind where you are now.

If you understood finances a little better you would know under deregulation a Major cannot fly a 319 into Omaha or equivalent to smaller size markets and make a profit. In order for these communities to be served an SLP was contracted. Could the majors themselves flown those aircraft like Air Canada does, yes, but as Air Canada has learned these aircraft are unprofitable regardless of the load.

Part of your rant is in response to Fubi. We all get that. The rest is harboring on ignorance. Pilots want to protect their jobs. VX's is a bane on the industry. Jetblue was.

Actually most of my experience came at the hands of a non-union carrier mostly doing flying that never belonged to the majors - flying a BE-1900 to rural communities. I held the high ground for many years and refused to go fly RJs on mainline routes because I felt they were stealing jobs. Many people, including mainline pilots felt this way as well. However ALL PILOTS (don't kid yourself) are in it for themselves, and there is no unity in this profession. There are only people who got lucky and those who were not so lucky. I did go fly RJs for a short period of time, but took the first opportunity to get out and go do independent flying again, not outsourced flying that used to belong to someone else.

I find it funny that you seem to overlook the fact that part of the economies that allowed for the massive expansion of RJs was in part created by pilots. DALPA allowed these near mainline sized jets to be outsourced to pilots making pennies on the dollar - that affects the economic production of that airplane. It is is not the entirety of the operating costs, but it is the largest controllable factor. Delta was perceived by the other carriers to get an economic edge by doing so and thus began to push for their own scope relief, and the pilot groups caved. The fact that you choose to ignore that part of the history of RJs means you will repeat the same mistake in the future. Hopefully more union members recognize the mistakes of the past.


I have fubi on my ignore list, so I can't see what he has been writing. But I do find it funny that he is has been preaching about being high and mighty and hating start-ups who undercut, only to find out he got his job with Alaska because they pushed for de-regulation so they could expand by undercutting other carriers. Just another reason to keep him on the ignore list.

 

[Lake Alice]

Any flying you did in a 1900 was still outsourced flying whether its in a Jet or on a "mainline" route. You benefited from the very relationship you now rail upon.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Part of your rant is in response to Fubi. We all get that. The rest is harboring on ignorance. Pilots want to protect their jobs. VX's is a bane on the industry. Jetblue was.

All of his rant is directed at me. When I criticized VX for its non-Union status, he read non-ALPA.

FAIL.

In response, he goes on the attack about outsourcing. And highlights his ignorance by accusing AKALPA of rolling over on the QX/SKW outsource.

EPIC FAIL.

Add to that he's a VX pilot.

HISTORIC FAIL.

Strike three, you're out Dude.

 

[waveflyer]

Any flying you did in a 1900 was still outsourced flying whether its in a Jet or on a "mainline" route. You benefited from the very relationship you now rail upon.

Benefitted?

How was it better to fly a 1900 for an outsourced carrier than to fly it for the major who's name was painted on the tail? Legacy airlines started out flying B-247's and dc-3's, when did they get it in their head that flying a turboprop wasn't glamorous enough?

All outsourcing does is make it harder to get a foot in the door at the stable well paid job- and guarantees constant whipsawing so that turboprop job will never be that good- it's no benefit at all. The minimum qualifications just raise up for any job worth having

This is a piece of logic so basic to the outsourcing argument, so dumb and void of thought and responsibility, that I have to literally take a deep breath or three to avoid slapping the person.

Another opportunity to practice patience.

 

[Lake Alice]

Don't get your panties in a wad. Your boy NEdude is stumping on the madness that is a regional aircraft flying routes for a mainline carrier. How poverty wages are the norm and how terrible ALPA is at fault. If you flew for a regional carrier to build time that is your problem and don't complain about using that carrier as a stepping stone.
As for the B-247's and DC-3's or a turbo prop being glamorous who cares. The argument is regionals cannot pay because they don't bring in the revenue. SLP's are third party contractors and that's it. The wage scale is not there. No one gives a sheet whether you think its glamorous or not.
Mainline carriers aren't going to fly 1900's. This concept seems awfully difficult for some to grasp.

 

[Lake Alice]

You pissed off RJ guys need to go back to school and take a class in economics and common sense.

 

[NEDude]

Any flying you did in a 1900 was still outsourced flying whether its in a Jet or on a "mainline" route. You benefited from the very relationship you now rail upon.

Umm no it wasn't. It was at risk flying on a network set up by my airline's management, not by a mainline carrier. It was not in and out of a mainline hub, there was no capacity purchase agreement/fee for departure with a mainline carrier, and it was not on routes that used to be flown by a mainline carrier.

As much as you think Virgin, or JetBlue, or Allegiant is a drag on the industry, we are no more so than any other airline. Are you really ignorant enough to think Virgin is the only airline guilty of using de-regulation to undercut fares of other carriers and expand? As we have learned Alaska is itself very guilty of that. United/Continental has a very nice EWR hub built by a de-regulation start-up. A large percentage of the current USAirways is a result of a de-regulation start-up. United has been trying to undercut American and vice versa in Chicago for 30+ years. There are countless more examples.

Your argument against Virgin America (or Allegiant, or JetBlue) is not based on fact, logic or rational thought. It is purely a selfish emotional rant based on the fact that you got yours and feel threatened by others getting theirs, that it somehow makes you less "special". Because EVERY airline in the post regulation era has been trying to undercut others, and cut expenses. Most of the surviving ones have benefited from the infrastructure created by start-ups and used chapter 11 to survive and operate at a loss in order to keep market share. You are a fool if you believe otherwise and a hypocrite for bashing other airlines for doing EXACTLY what you carrier has been doing.

 

[Lake Alice]

I'm employed by Jetblue. How the airline wasn't found guilty of predatory pricing shortly after it's inception is beyond me. What the pilot group has done is fight for better pay and benefits. We are no longer the bottom, you are. However, this discussion has turned to the regionals. If you flew a 1900 for a commuter you operated under the umbrella of a larger carrier. You did not, at any point regardless of where you flew, set your own ticket prices. You operated under the banner of another carrier. This is what makes you a hypocrite. You rail against regionals and majors for creating the regional market yet you flew for one in order to gain experience to move on. You did what half the industry did. They used it for what its worth while you sit atop your pedestal.

Airlines undercut one another based on route. Jetblue did so in the past but it made money. VX undercuts EVERY other airline yet does not turn a profit. There is a big difference here. If VX pays its employee what is considered industry standard, as per your financial reports, you would go out of business. I'm not looking for you to lose your job but those are facts.

 

[Kalifornia]

However ALL PILOTS (don't kid yourself) are in it for themselves, and there is no unity in this profession.

This statement is in poor taste and is certainly not true. Self centered to some degree - yes. To all degrees - absolutely not. Most pilots will not scab for example. Most pilots will not pick up overtime with furloughs. Don't kid yourself, promoting the idea of no unity as the rule is not helping the profession.

 

[Mamma]

This statement is in poor taste and is certainly not true. Self centered to some degree - yes. To all degrees - absolutely not. Most pilots will not scab for example. Most pilots will not pick up overtime with furloughs. Don't kid yourself, promoting the idea of no unity as the rule is not helping the profession.

True. There are lines 95% of professional pilots won't cross. Scabbing, volunteering for extra time with guys on furlough are some. I wish flying past 60 was one.

 

[Flyer1015]

I'm pretty sure that Fubi's complaint isn't that you're not ALPA. I think it's that you're non-union completely. It's not an ALPA issue.

So? JetBlue Airbus pilots are amongst the highest paid A320 drivers in the country. Factor in that they don't lose 1.95% (that's almost 3,000 dollars for someone who makes $150k) and they come out damn near top compared to other major/legacy A320 pilots.

 

[NEDude]

This statement is in poor taste and is certainly not true. Self centered to some degree - yes. To all degrees - absolutely not. Most pilots will not scab for example. Most pilots will not pick up overtime with furloughs. Don't kid yourself, promoting the idea of no unity as the rule is not helping the profession.

You are correct that most pilots will not scab. But there have been plenty of complaints about pilots pilots picking up open time while guys are on furlough - you could spend days reading all of the threads on this and other message boards about that. Age 60 has been mentioned many times. How about captains agreeing to contractual provisions that sell out junior pilots and make it easier for them to get furloughed - that has happened many times in the last 15 years? How about the B-scale at American in the early 1980s?

Long story short - there are numerous of examples of pilots selling out others for their own personal gain.

 

[NEDude]

I'm employed by Jetblue. How the airline wasn't found guilty of predatory pricing shortly after it's inception is beyond me. What the pilot group has done is fight for better pay and benefits. We are no longer the bottom, you are. However, this discussion has turned to the regionals. If you flew a 1900 for a commuter you operated under the umbrella of a larger carrier. You did not, at any point regardless of where you flew, set your own ticket prices. You operated under the banner of another carrier. This is what makes you a hypocrite. You rail against regionals and majors for creating the regional market yet you flew for one in order to gain experience to move on. You did what half the industry did. They used it for what its worth while you sit atop your pedestal.

Airlines undercut one another based on route. Jetblue did so in the past but it made money. VX undercuts EVERY other airline yet does not turn a profit. There is a big difference here. If VX pays its employee what is considered industry standard, as per your financial reports, you would go out of business. I'm not looking for you to lose your job but those are facts.

Two points - First of all you are incorrect about the BE-1900 operation. No way around it - in our operation the prices were not set by a major airline - they were set by my airlines management. You could buy the tickets through a major partner and earn FF miles - but the operation was entirely structured, priced, and run by my company. There was absolutely no risk incurred by the major airline partner. It was on new routes that were not a part of the major airline partners route structure, nor had they even been at one point, and not one part of that operation operated into and out of a hub of the major carrier. A good percentage of the operation was EAS flying. It turns out the operation was not financially viable and has since been shut down, but at the time the focal point of where I was flying and what I was doing was about as unattached to a mainline operation as you can get in this day and age. I can understand why it may be hard for you to accept that fact because such an operation is so rare in today's environment, and clearly as my company found out there is a reason why it is so rare, but that WAS the reality of the operation.

You announcing that you are employed by JetBlue makes me scratch my head a bit. Your airline, and the wages it was paid at the time, are the whole reason this thing with fubi (and thus my responses) began in the first place. YOUR airlines wages, benefits and work rules were the ones used by the bankruptcy courts to justify cutting pay at other carriers. You yourself just stated that you wonder how your company was not found guilty of predatory pricing. How dare you have the arrogant nerve to come on here and blast others for working for low wages at a start-up and accuse it of being a drain on the industry. By your own admission you career is based on an undercutting start-up that paid low wages!! Quit your job and then come back and get on your soap box you hypocrite!

As for going out of business - you so-called flight info "financial experts" have been predicting for over four years now that Virgin was about to go under. Yet here we stand with the strongest liquidity in the companies history, firm financing in hand for 13 more deliveries into 2013, on the verge of opening a sim center in SFO, recently expanded office space, and have had a 64% growth in fleet size in the past 17 months. So pardon me if I take your prediction that we "would go out of business" with a huge grain of salt. You so-called "experts" have a rotten track record on here.

 

[Fubijaakr]

So? JetBlue Airbus pilots are amongst the highest paid A320 drivers in the country. Factor in that they don't lose 1.95% (that's almost 3,000 dollars for someone who makes $150k) and they come out damn near top compared to other major/legacy A320 pilots.

We're talking about VX not B6. Try to keep up.

 

[Fins Up]

So? JetBlue Airbus pilots are amongst the highest paid A320 drivers in the country. Factor in that they don't lose 1.95% (that's almost 3,000 dollars for someone who makes $150k) and they come out damn near top compared to other major/legacy A320 pilots.

Thread creep on.

I'd be happy to pay my dues in exchange for the opportunity to negotiate a better total compensation package. Ours is not "amongst the highest" in the country.

Thread creep off.

 

[Lake Alice]

The only prices the airline sets under EAS is anything above the governmental rate for that route. Every other route was under the banner of another airline. Jetblue, in my opinion, was predatory pricing. Today the ticket prices and the wages are consistent with the industry. I came to jetblue for the same reason others went to regionals. It's a stepping stone. It serves its purpose. Unlike a regional jetblue sets its own prices and therefore can afford wage increases. I don't blast anyone. I'm not the one crying about regional wages. Regionals serve their purpose. VX is trying to be a major airline while paying like a regional. This I take issue with. When other airlines have to use your airlines pay scales to benchmark then we all have issues. VX is still operating because it is private. Had you been public the "experts" would have been correct years ago.

The majority of us fly for a living. We do it to make money, provide for our families and fund our retirements. The day of flying for the love are gone. It's about finances. VX hurts the industry as a whole because of your low pay and benefits.

 

[tzskipper]

Amen, Brother.

You all have beat this to death so badly, that the original point of the thread was... what again?

This has got to be one of the dumbest threads of all time.

S

 

[jayme]

Amen brother.

 

[DASHDRIVER]

Seriously,

Is there even moderators on these threads? Every VX thread turns into the same crap. Can't we just make a fubi/NE thread so the rest of us can have adult conversations in peace?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

APC moderators had the decency and maturity to send Fubi on his childish way. Unfortunately that is not the case here on FI.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

It is the goal of the haters to destroy all VA threads. I put the ring leader on ignore and will not respond to him.

That is the only way to stop it. Wish a few of my fellow VA guys would do the same.

 

[mxer]

None of us are down to your level.

 

[ASADFW7]

I cannot keep up with every insult and thread hijack. I apologize for the attack on VA from one specific user. I hope this thread improves, a couple posts have been deleted and infractions given.

 

[NEDude]

Had you been public the "experts" would have been correct years ago.

VX hurts the industry as a whole because of your low pay and benefits.

How many FI "experts" predicted the demise of United? How many predicted the demise of USAirways after the second bankruptcy? There were thousands of "expert" predictions those public companies would die. Yet guess what, they are still here. This is the worst place in the world when it comes to getting good financial information and accurate predictions about the future of airlines. Honestly, I really believe if you were any good at financial analysis you would not be an airline pilot.

As for low pay and benefits hurting the industry, by your own admission you work for a company that has been accused of the same and has been used in court proceedings for lowering the pay of others. You have no place to come here and preach from a soap box.

 

[DASHDRIVER]

Maybe we should just delete this thread and star a fresh one. It been pages since this conversation made any sense. Thank you moderators for stepping in. Some people really do want to have civil conversations around here.

 

[Lake Alice]

How many FI "experts" predicted the demise of United? How many predicted the demise of USAirways after the second bankruptcy? There were thousands of "expert" predictions those public companies would die. Yet guess what, they are still here. This is the worst place in the world when it comes to getting good financial information and accurate predictions about the future of airlines. Honestly, I really believe if you were any good at financial analysis you would not be an airline pilot.

As for low pay and benefits hurting the industry, by your own admission you work for a company that has been accused of the same and has been used in court proceedings for lowering the pay of others. You have no place to come here and preach from a soap box.

FI does not have experts, rather opinions. Financial experts stated United or USair would file CH11 or CH7 IF "this or that" did not happen. The Jamie Bakers of the financial world do not predict absolutes. The financial experts would tell you the benefit VX has right now is not being public. Without shareholders your standards for operating are slightly different than the rest of the industry. If you read your financial reports and not the opinion of the airline you would understand the financial position you are in. Your airline is unable to raise your pay and benefits to an industry standard. The revenue and operating budgets aren't there. You continue to operate based largely in part to cash infusions received due to your airline being private. I'm not saying this is good or bad.
What I am saying is is other airlines are having to use your airlines pay and benefits in their benchmarking. This is the issue at hand. VX cannot afford to operate or pay it's pilots properly and that hurts us all. This is not a knock on you personally but just an industry fact.

Comparatively when Jetblue opened it's door in '01 and after it's pay rates, compared to bankruptcy contracts, were still substantially below average although Jetblue was making record profits and had a share price at $70. Money was never an issue. Today Jetblue has crawled out of the pay cellar though we are still behind industry standard. On a side note my understanding of predatory pricing is not where it should be because the prices Jetblue charged at the beginning should have been illegal. Today things are substantially different.

I'm realistic of where my airline is and has been. I'm a realist, it's a job. If Jetblue, or any airline, could get rid of us tomorrow and employ someone for less money they would. As we say at Jetblue we are a cost unit and nothing else. At one point we were the bane of this industries pilot groups. Today we are not. Also as a public company we have access to our financial reports and for the most part we are aware of where the money goes. As a pilot group we have reasonable expectations for where our pay and benefits should be based on those reports.

 

[Fubijaakr]

On a side note my understanding of predatory pricing is not where it should be because the prices Jetblue charged at the beginning should have been illegal.

Exactly why I was anti-B6 10 years ago. And the fallout of lousy B6 pay rates back then ARE STILL BEING FELT at UAL and LCC. Those old B6 rates were imposed by the bankruptcy court judge and are still in force. THAT'S HOW VX LEVEL PAY RATES EFFECT US ALL.

I'm realistic of where my airline is and has been. I'm a realist, it's a job. If Jetblue, or any airline, could get rid of us tomorrow and employ someone for less money they would. As we say at Jetblue we are a cost unit and nothing else. At one point we were the bane of this industries pilot groups.

Today, that distinction goes to VX and AGT pilots.

 

[waveflyer]

It's called capitalism fubi. Your union isn't strong enough because most pilots (most americans) have been convinced to support anti-union politicians who stack the deck against labor.