UAL to not make it through the Winter???

[eaglesview]

Must be nice to have a micro view of the world. How's USAPA working out for the pickleballers?

How's SWAPA working out??? APA???Thes two groups know exactly who THEIR union represents

 

[ualdriver]

How's SWAPA working out??? APA???Thes two groups know exactly who THEIR union represents

It's great that you think independent unions are superior than ALPA, but there are shortcomings as well. For example, ALPA has more influence in government than either of those unions because we have 10,000's of thousands of members represented by one union. So now you're probably thinking, so what? Well, when it comes to governmental issues concerning pilots, government officials don't ask the leader of the APA to come and talk to a committee, but Prater does. After the Buffalo crash, it was Prater talking to Congress, not the leaders of SWAPA.

Big deal you're thinking, right? What has ALPA done for me lately, right? Well, right now we have some pretty important changes in regulation that are about to take place within the FAA. It's ALPA that has members providing their input. It's ALPA that is going to influence the direction that regulation is going to take. If we start splintering off into our own little unions, we lose the ability to speak with one voice. Do you think every member of the ATA agrees with everything the ATA does? When ATA loses a political battle, do you see Delta, American, United, etc., threatening to leave the ATA if they don't get their way? Of course not. The individual airline CEOs aren't STUPID. They know that collectively they'll have more influence when the ATA speaks for the industry then if each airline pursued it's own agenda. Pilots on the other hand want to pout, take their toys, and go home when the association that has to please 50,000 pilots doesn't meet their personal desires.

 

[eaglesview]

It's great that you think independent unions are superior than ALPA, but there are shortcomings as well. For example, ALPA has more influence in government than either of those unions because we have 10,000's of thousands of members represented by one union. So now you're probably thinking, so what? Well, when it comes to governmental issues concerning pilots, government officials don't ask the leader of the APA to come and talk to a committee, but Prater does. After the Buffalo crash, it was Prater talking to Congress, not the leaders of SWAPA.

Big deal you're thinking, right? What has ALPA done for me lately, right? Well, right now we have some pretty important changes in regulation that are about to take place within the FAA. It's ALPA that has members providing their input. It's ALPA that is going to influence the direction that regulation is going to take. If we start splintering off into our own little unions, we lose the ability to speak with one voice. Do you think every member of the ATA agrees with everything the ATA does? When ATA loses a political battle, do you see Delta, American, United, etc., threatening to leave the ATA if they don't get their way? Of course not. The individual airline CEOs aren't STUPID. They know that collectively they'll have more influence when the ATA speaks for the industry then if each airline pursued it's own agenda. Pilots on the other hand want to pout, take their toys, and go home when the association that has to please 50,000 pilots doesn't meet their personal desires.

I respect that you are a diehard fan of ALPA. And I agree that ALPA has more influence right now than an independent union would. However the truth is it annoys the hell out of me that the union I joined in 1988 when I was hired at Eastern now has fallen silent on the outsourcing of jobs at the majors. Why because they also represent many pilots at the regionals. The ALPA I joined in 89 would not have let this go so quietly. How can you argue this is not a conflict of interest. You don't have to look any further than the scope battle we have coming in this contract. I am fed up with flying along side pilots that were hired at UAL over a decade ago just to watch all that experience flushed out onto the street to make room for some outsource jet being flown by the latest Comair academy grad. I along with you take random drug and alchohol test in a room where you are guilty until proven innocent. Why, because it's in the interest of public safety. Isn't having experience in the cockpit in the interest of public safety? Where is MY union??
I am sorry if my desire to have a union that represents ME at MY place of employment upsets you. I am happy to simply agree to disagree with you. Like Democrats and Republicans we both want the same thing but disagree on how to get there.

 

[Mr.B]

Must be nice to have a micro view of the world. How's USAPA working out for the pickleballers?

Hows APA working out for AA? Southwests in-house? UPS? I can tell you from my micro world it looks a hell of a lot better than whats going on at UA.

Perhaps from your expanded view of the world you can see this too.

BTW, whats a pickleballer?

 

[Mr.B]

It's great that you think independent unions are superior than ALPA, but there are shortcomings as well. For example, ALPA has more influence in government than either of those unions because we have 10,000's of thousands of members represented by one union. So now you're probably thinking, so what? Well, when it comes to governmental issues concerning pilots, government officials don't ask the leader of the APA to come and talk to a committee, but Prater does. After the Buffalo crash, it was Prater talking to Congress, not the leaders of SWAPA.

Big deal you're thinking, right? What has ALPA done for me lately, right? Well, right now we have some pretty important changes in regulation that are about to take place within the FAA. It's ALPA that has members providing their input. It's ALPA that is going to influence the direction that regulation is going to take. If we start splintering off into our own little unions, we lose the ability to speak with one voice. Do you think every member of the ATA agrees with everything the ATA does? When ATA loses a political battle, do you see Delta, American, United, etc., threatening to leave the ATA if they don't get their way? Of course not. The individual airline CEOs aren't STUPID. They know that collectively they'll have more influence when the ATA speaks for the industry then if each airline pursued it's own agenda. Pilots on the other hand want to pout, take their toys, and go home when the association that has to please 50,000 pilots doesn't meet their personal desires.

Oh, you mean influencing congress on issues ALPA opposes? Like age 65?

The WSJ has a nice article on the upcoming flight/ duty time regs that may change to allow transcon turns. Is ALPA going to "influence" that too?

 

[Mr.B]

I am fed up with flying along side pilots that were hired at UAL over a decade ago just to watch all that experience flushed out onto the street to make room for some outsource jet being flown by the latest Comair academy grad.

Buy this man a beer.

 

[Stan]

Oh, you mean influencing congress on issues ALPA opposes? Like age 65?

The WSJ has a nice article on the upcoming flight/ duty time regs that may change to allow transcon turns. Is ALPA going to "influence" that too?

They did influence age 65. They made it happen. They are going to influence the flight duty time rigs. Be prepared to deal with the rules that ALPA writes.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Sure, but SWAPA and APA have both been around for 40 years plus. You start an independent union now and you get USAPA or NPA.

www.usapa.org

 

[Plug]

Anyone else notice that CAL and UAL are slowly combining terminals at many airports. NRT seems to be the most recent. Also, in EWR Airtran currently operates out of "A" terminal along with UAL (Star Alliance) and Air Canada (Star Alliance). Last month Airtran and CAL did a slot swap between EWR and DCA resulting in Airtran is pulling out of EWR. Send Alaska and West Jet over to "B" and we now have a whole wing of "A" for Star Alliance carriers. They could end up doing with the "weed whacker scope buster turbo-props" along with the DHC200 that they did with the ERJ and send them over to "A" and make "C" all mainline and Star Aircraft.

CAL and UAL are getting things lined up, I expect an announcement shortly after we (CAL) join Star.

 

[ualdriver]

I respect that you are a diehard fan of ALPA. And I agree that ALPA has more influence right now than an independent union would. However the truth is it annoys the hell out of me that the union I joined in 1988 when I was hired at Eastern now has fallen silent on the outsourcing of jobs at the majors. Why because they also represent many pilots at the regionals. The ALPA I joined in 89 would not have let this go so quietly. How can you argue this is not a conflict of interest. You don't have to look any further than the scope battle we have coming in this contract. I am fed up with flying along side pilots that were hired at UAL over a decade ago just to watch all that experience flushed out onto the street to make room for some outsource jet being flown by the latest Comair academy grad. I along with you take random drug and alchohol test in a room where you are guilty until proven innocent. Why, because it's in the interest of public safety. Isn't having experience in the cockpit in the interest of public safety? Where is MY union??
I am sorry if my desire to have a union that represents ME at MY place of employment upsets you. I am happy to simply agree to disagree with you. Like Democrats and Republicans we both want the same thing but disagree on how to get there.

I respect those opinions as well.

It's not so much that I am a diehard fan of ALPA. It's just that ALPA is the best deal we have going right now. If something better were to come along, I'd want it.

The APA that you mentioned previously also allowed massive outsourcing, even though it is an in-house.

I think your point about furloughing experienced guys and replacing them with inexperienced guys is true, and I think that ALPA National is/was aware of that. But before this unfortunate Buffalo crash, do you think Congress or the FAA would have even entertained ALPA if they had strenuously pushed for say, tougher ATP requirements or minimums for Part 121 airline first officers? Unfortunately, ALPA only influences, and we both know the FAA is a tombstone agency that only does "difficult" things when passengers die and they are forced to. Now that this accident has unfortunately happened, it's ALPA that will be sitting at the big table. I like that because otherwise, particularly with a small in-house union, we'd have zero influence.

It is a conflict of interest to a certain extent to represent the regionals. So let's say tomorrow ALPA boots all the regionals out. OK great- conflict of interest gone. Without strong union representation, what do you think will happen to regional pay, work rules, and benefits? We all reailize that the regionals use more in resources than they take in with dues. Without the benefits and services ALPA provides, would their next contract be better or worse for them? Do we want to help lift regional pay, work rules, and benefits UP and make them a less attractive alternative to a mainline CEO, or do we want to boot them out of ALPA and "hope" things don't get worse for them and they undercut us even further? I think getting rid of that "conflict of interest" is a double edged sword that might have unintended consequences.

 

[Fubijaakr]

I believe it was APA who agreed to the first B-scale as well.

 

[ualdriver]

Oh, you mean influencing congress on issues ALPA opposes? Like age 65?

The WSJ has a nice article on the upcoming flight/ duty time regs that may change to allow transcon turns. Is ALPA going to "influence" that too?

Linky to the WSJ article, please.

Yup, they will. And they're going to get some things they don't want, and they're going to get some things they do want. And there are going to be compromises. Hence the word "influence." It's much better than the alternative- "no influence" or "zero influence." Further, what is probably going to happen is that some pilots are going to see rule changes, whether it is rest rule changes or whatever, and see some they don't like. Then they're going to say, "look ALPA sucks. Rule XXX is a joke." Of course, who knows how much worse something undesirable would have looked had ALPA not been there.

They did influence age 65. They made it happen. They are going to influence the flight duty time rigs. Be prepared to deal with the rules that ALPA writes.

I disagree that they made it happen, and again, ad nauseam. So whenever ALPA, or any other large organization loses a fight, we should just throw the whole organization out and replace them with what? An organization that never loses ANY political battles and won't in the future? An organization that can satisfy every airline pilot's needs simultaneously? Which organization will that be? Whatever it is, let me know because I want in.

 

[Mr.B]

I believe it was APA who agreed to the first B-scale as well.

True....weak, but true.

 

[flygirlqt]

I believe it was APA who agreed to the first B-scale as well.

No, it was actually Piedmont in 1983. Ironically a staunch ALPA carrier.

 

[Shrek]

Guys:

I'm NOT trying to stir up a hornet's nest or pi$$ in anyone's Cheerios. Please don't take it that way. I don't want this to happen and am not advocating a position either way.

I'm just wondering if anyone else is hearing this. Yesterday, I had a talk with a bud about consolidation in the industry vis a vis DAL and NWA and the topic turned to UAL and whether they will make it at all. His theory was that they shouldn't and I disagreed simply on a jobs front. We were talking about UAL having to pledge spare parts as collateral for their loan covenants and I thought that definitely didn't sound good. He said that he is hearing that Lufthansa and others are hovering around trying to figure out which parts they want, planes, routes, ops, gates, systems, etc.

So what is the scoop over there? Is there a load factor issue? Is there no money or advance bookings to make through the Winter? Are there rumors of parting out the company?

Just wondering. No flamebait. Best of luck to all the UAL bros and buds that I have over there. This industry is proving to be a mother!

WM

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601209&sid=acjk9mbwtyfc

I would trust this over a "bud"........

 

[eaglesview]

Sure, but SWAPA and APA have both been around for 40 years plus. You start an independent union now and you get USAPA or NPA.

www.usapa.org

Both SWAPA and APA both had a first day. As for USAPA, like it or not, they have only been around for a short while. If Usair (or any of us) is around a while they to will get more organized. NPA took the ALPA leap. Time will tell how that works out for them.

 

[contrail67]

Here is another article on it....your friend is clueless...hopefully you are smart enough to think on your own before a stupid thread like this is started again.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/jp-morgan-upgrades-ual-us-airways-2009-09-10?siteid=msn

 

[stillflyn]

It's great that you think independent unions are superior than ALPA, but there are shortcomings as well. For example, ALPA has more influence in government than either of those unions because we have 10,000's of thousands of members represented by one union. So now you're probably thinking, so what? Well, when it comes to governmental issues concerning pilots, government officials don't ask the leader of the APA to come and talk to a committee, but Prater does. After the Buffalo crash, it was Prater talking to Congress, not the leaders of SWAPA.

Big deal you're thinking, right? What has ALPA done for me lately, right? Well, right now we have some pretty important changes in regulation that are about to take place within the FAA. It's ALPA that has members providing their input. It's ALPA that is going to influence the direction that regulation is going to take. If we start splintering off into our own little unions, we lose the ability to speak with one voice. Do you think every member of the ATA agrees with everything the ATA does? When ATA loses a political battle, do you see Delta, American, United, etc., threatening to leave the ATA if they don't get their way? Of course not. The individual airline CEOs aren't STUPID. They know that collectively they'll have more influence when the ATA speaks for the industry then if each airline pursued it's own agenda. Pilots on the other hand want to pout, take their toys, and go home when the association that has to please 50,000 pilots doesn't meet their personal desires.

ALPA's political influence help speed me on my way to the street for the second time during my 10 years of on again off again work with UAL. Thanks again for age 65 ALPA!! Maybe I can go back to UAL and get furloughed a third time while the senior guys have the mentality of "as long as it doesn't effect me it's fine."

 

[Andy]

So you aren't resigning? Seems kind of hypocritical to me to paint with such a broad brush, calling me and my peers "self serving idiots" and all. If you'd put your money where you mouth is, you'd submit your resignation tomorrow and be done with us. If I honestly felt that way about my peers at a particular carrier, the LAST thing I would do is associate with them, especially when there appears to be no apparent reason to do so.

I shouldn't gripe about my management's poor performance? Really? Let's see- 3 years in bankruptcy, huge pay cuts (46%-ish), trashed work rules, lost pensions, 1.5% raises over the past several years, pi$$ing away cash in DIV's and paying down low interest debt WITH CASH in order to pay said DIV, (I'll give them a pass on the hedging losses), a couple of thousand pilots furloughed, and despite all of those advantages these guys STILL can't get their act together. Never mind the lack of leadership, the outsourcing, and the recent Aer Lingus end around. Yet the pilots are MORE responsible for creating a lousy work environment? Really? Perhaps we should be nominating Glenn for CEO of the year?

It's one thing as a corporation in an industry experiencing a down cycle to get dragged down along with the cycle. It's another when a management team gets every advantage they could possibly want through the bankruptcy courts and the 1113c process and STILL be losing.

Paragraph 1: Resign? Why? Zero cost for me to remain on furlough and qualify for retirement. Let me be kind; your suggestion displayed zero critical analysis.

Paragraph 2: Gawd, I love it when pilots think that they can manage an airline. I made an extremely long rebuttal but it didn't post. Maybe next time.

Paragraph 3: Wanna compare C2K (81 hrs max) with C2003 (89/95)? That's a 10-18% personnel reduction, specifically for the purpose of minimizing senior pilots' paycheck shrinkage due to hourly pay cuts. In a 10K pilot workforce (where it used to be), that single move cost 1000-1800 pilots their jobs. And how was the vote on C2003? Something like 85% in favor? Sweet; nothing like solidarity ... among the senior 'pull up the ladder' pilots.

 

[Andy]

ALPA's political influence help speed me on my way to the street for the second time during my 10 years of on again off again work with UAL. Thanks again for age 65 ALPA!! Maybe I can go back to UAL and get furloughed a third time while the senior guys have the mentality of "as long as it doesn't effect me it's fine."

Anyone, ANYONE who tells you that ALPA and UAUA ALPA did not play a part in age 65 is not equipped with the facts. UAUA ALPA voted in favor of age 65 at the ALPA Executive Board. ALPA ran a push poll prior to the Congressional vote to justify changing age 60.
ALPA and UAUA ALPA did not resist the change; they were jocund cheerleaders for the change to 65.