UAL to not make it through the Winter???

[Flopgut]

If you think for a minute I am going to defend ALPA you are sadly mistaken. I would love to hear your explanation on how UAL ALPA somehow played a hand in 65 so you can steer that nonsence towards Herndon. If you need directions I'll help you with that

Now scum bag explain to me what a senior UAL ALPA pilot is. You are so brave to call me one behind your keyboard. Meanwhile I continue to bounce down the pay scale like everyone else due to the scope issue which ONE ALPA rep signed away with his pen WITHOUT membership ratification.

With that said I asked ANDY to explain to me how the United Pilots are more to blame for the position our company is in than UAL management. I invite you to do the same.

Well tool bag, what do you think your working reality would be like if you had not given up scope? PW gave up every single line of it! You can't more completely throw something away than what he did. You can not strike from consideration that at least something more would remain if you had just let the A plan go. Period. Maybe you wouldn't be plummeting down the staffing list, at least as fast, if f-ing PW had even half a ball and wasn't so self centered? Why did you allow him to do that? Take some responsibility. It should be untenable for him to come to work.

UAL ALPA most certainly DID have a hand in getting Prater in and it was based on a backdoor deal over 65. I can't believe you don't know that. How else does a CAL pilot end up running ALPA?! You seriously did not know that at the last second UAL ALPA votes went to Prater with the tipping point being 65? Sad.

You want to see UAL make it? I'll pm you an idea.

 

[vetrider]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32694752/ns/travel-tips/

Well I did see this article. Somehow I knew we'd see Herbst or Cordle being quoted. My take is that Christopher Elliot doesn't know what he's talking about, but he needs to write an article. So he turns to a line pilot analyst, who puts his crackerjack box analyst credentials to the acid test, and boldly predicts United and USAirways have challenges ahead.

Then all of the line pilot experts in crew rooms and chat boards the finishing touches with all their brilliant anlaysis, and voila, this is what we get.

 

[ualdriver]

Well tool bag, what do you think your working reality would be like if you had not given up scope? PW gave up every single line of it! You can't more completely throw something away than what he did. You can not strike from consideration that at least something more would remain if you had just let the A plan go. Period. Maybe you wouldn't be plummeting down the staffing list, at least as fast, if f-ing PW had even half a ball and wasn't so self centered? Why did you allow him to do that? Take some responsibility. It should be untenable for him to come to work.

UAL ALPA most certainly DID have a hand in getting Prater in and it was based on a backdoor deal over 65. I can't believe you don't know that. How else does a CAL pilot end up running ALPA?! You seriously did not know that at the last second UAL ALPA votes went to Prater with the tipping point being 65? Sad.

You want to see UAL make it? I'll pm you an idea.

PW gave up scope? I think you have you facts screwed up. PW is responsible for a certain controversial side letter written during the bankruptcy process concerning 70 seat RJ's, but scope was given up way before him. In fact, you might want to take a look at an old copy of Contract 2000- you might be surprised. And I'm not defending PW because I'm not a fan of what he did.

Our pension was massively underfunded and eventually was seized by the PBGC.

The Age 65 stuff has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum. If you have any specific proof that Prater cut some sort of back room deal other than "everyone knows," feel free to post it.

 

[Flopgut]

PW gave up scope? I think you have you facts screwed up. PW is responsible for a certain controversial side letter written during the bankruptcy process concerning 70 seat RJ's, but scope was given up way before him. In fact, you might want to take a look at an old copy of Contract 2000- you might be surprised. And I'm not defending PW because I'm not a fan of what he did.

Our pension was massively underfunded and eventually was seized by the PBGC.

The Age 65 stuff has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum. If you have any specific proof that Prater cut some sort of back room deal other than "everyone knows," feel free to post it.

Ad nauseaum indeed, I don't want to delve into the issue again, I'm just speaking to the UAL support Prater got to get the job.

Your pension was also overfunded at one point. There's a lot of places you can (and should) go with that issue. I'll do some legwork on PW, but I don't think I'm too confused about the guy's actions. If I say "I'm not a fan of Frank Lorenzo" and then gloss over the effects of his exact actions it makes Frank sound less bad. But it's not reality. PW was going to put anything up to save the A fund. Anything; He was never going to cut the rope. It's a generational thing and I think it's sort of what Andy is talking about when he says the pilots have a responsibility for UAL being a screwed up place to work. Huge mistakes were made by UAL pilot leaders and not enough UAL pilots are taking issue or doing anything about it.

 

[eaglesview]

Well tool bag, what do you think your working reality would be like if you had not given up scope? PW gave up every single line of it! You can't more completely throw something away than what he did. You can not strike from consideration that at least something more would remain if you had just let the A plan go. Period. Maybe you wouldn't be plummeting down the staffing list, at least as fast, if f-ing PW had even half a ball and wasn't so self centered? Why did you allow him to do that? Take some responsibility. It should be untenable for him to come to work.

UAL ALPA most certainly DID have a hand in getting Prater in and it was based on a backdoor deal over 65. I can't believe you don't know that. How else does a CAL pilot end up running ALPA?! You seriously did not know that at the last second UAL ALPA votes went to Prater with the tipping point being 65? Sad.

You want to see UAL make it? I'll pm you an idea.

You contradict yourself in your own post. As I said and you seem to agree PW gave that crap away. Not me nor the masses at UAL. There was NO MEMBERSHIP RATIFICATION!

As for your second half as I have said repeatedly I have absolutly no use for ALPA national.

 

[ualdriver]

Your pension was also overfunded at one point. There's a lot of places you can (and should) go with that issue. I'll do some legwork on PW, but I don't think I'm too confused about the guy's actions. If I say "I'm not a fan of Frank Lorenzo" and then gloss over the effects of his exact actions it makes Frank sound less bad. But it's not reality. PW was going to put anything up to save the A fund. Anything; He was never going to cut the rope. It's a generational thing and I think it's sort of what Andy is talking about when he says the pilots have a responsibility for UAL being a screwed up place to work. Huge mistakes were made by UAL pilot leaders and not enough UAL pilots are taking issue or doing anything about it.

If you're not sure about the scope give away, I am pretty sure. The original scope was given away under a MR under Glawe. Contract 2000 gave away even more. PW signed away the EMB170 because the company came to him and said that our regional partners wanted to have another aircraft besides the CRJ's, so they could pit manufacturers against each other and get better prices. The EMB170 was over the weight limit, so he waived it. It was complete BS, especially the way he did it.

As far as the pension goes, yes at one time, and times in its multi-decade history, I'm sure it was overfunded. Most pensions follow the peaks and the troughs of the stock market, just like your 401K does. The problem was that between the increase in A fund benefits negotiated in C2000 and low interest rates and low stock prices at the time of our bankruptcy, it was massively underfunded, and ultimately seized by the PBGC. Of course, conspiracy theories are rampant amongst the pilots, especially the ones that haven't seen the inside of a union hall in their entire careers, but that's only because they weren't paying attention and just got the facts from their buddies who were equally as clueless.

I agree with you that our first round of cuts while in bankruptcy had much to do with trying to save the pension. Was that the wrong thing to do at the time? With the benefit of hindsight, sure! But to criticize the actions of union leaders who were working for a bankrupt airline and were forced to deal with a company under the duress of the 1113c process.........again hindsight is 20/20.

I'm familiar with Andy's comments and the comments of furloughees on this forum and our internal forum. The bottom line is that UAL pilots, ALPA, or whoever else you want to blame did not lay off our pilots. Management did. I realize ALPA is a convenient punching bag, and we hear quite often that "ALPA didn't do enough," but when you're dealing with a management team like ours, it's like talking with a brick wall. For example, did you know that when UA ALPA went to our management to negotiate furlough mitigation, we were told that if we took ANOTHER paycut, they'd cut the number of furloughees? That's what we were dealing with. Other management teams were offering payoffs and other deals to get pilots off the property. We got the hand- then it's ALPA's fault because we "didn't do enough," when in fact we're dealing with a management team that really could care less. Situations like this would make any union or any pilot group "look bad," but what do you do when you're dealing with a guy like Tilton and his cronies? It makes for a bad relationship, and unfortunately that's the way it is here.

 

[Flopgut]

You guys are going to have to find some reasons you believe UAL should stay around and cling to them. You can talk yourselves out it if you decide to be too intellectual about it. You can rationalize that you are dealing with a tough environment and an equally tough mgt team and use that as a way to cope. It is not working.

Sports analogy: Recievers have to get open, playmakers have to make plays. If that's not happening then you need to do things different. Losing that lawsuit and getting hit with the injunction puts you guys about as far down as a team can get. You need to do things differently and get outside the box pronto. What's the plan?

 

[Mr.B]

You contradict yourself in your own post. As I said and you seem to agree PW gave that crap away. Not me nor the masses at UAL. There was NO MEMBERSHIP RATIFICATION!

As for your second half as I have said repeatedly I have absolutly no use for ALPA national.

The faster UAL has an in-house union the better it will be for UAL pilots.

 

[eaglesview]

The faster UAL has an in-house union the better it will be for UAL pilots.

You got that right!!!

 

[Fubijaakr]

The faster UAL has an in-house union the better it will be for UAL pilots.

Must be nice to have a micro view of the world. How's USAPA working out for the pickleballers?