UAL to not make it through the Winter???

[waveflyer]

A short time from now in a galaxy far too close:

"I drove my Government Motors clunker to the airport but it broke down halfway there. Caught a taxi the rest of the way. The cap and trade energy surcharge was more than my last paycheck. After a full interrogation of my business and political affiliation (good thing I voted Democrat and signed the petition for President-for-Life Obama) I boarded my Untied Obama Airlines flight but it ran off the runway because of lousy maintenance. There were dozens of cut and bleeding passengers taken to the local hospital but a few bled to death waiting for the Obamacare bureaucrat to sign some paperwork and find a doctor since most of them quit. Guess I'll go back to my cardboard cottage and worship my picture of Big Brother Barry."

HE will save United no matter what. Count on it.

the real start

 

[waveflyer]

The government won't even ground 50 SWA planes flying with illegal parts, and you think the government will allow a 90,000 employee company to be scraped?

Welcome to the United Socialist States of America, the USSA where nothing changes except the definition of change.

So how long do remarks like these get to be made before I'm allowed to call it out? The vast majority of professional pilots are conservative- that's good-I respect it mostly- but to take that conservativism to the extreme right- as so many of you are doing since Obamas election is disturbing. If you find yourself this heated- you should check yourself first.

 

[Andy]

Hi!


I thought that, basically, all of UAL's assets were already leveraged to raise cash, so that they cannot sell any of them?

cliff
NBO

They can sell them, but then they'd have to pay off any collateralized loans. In a broader picture, look for route sales. The most valuable routes are UAUA's Pacific routes.

 

[Andy]

So you won't be coming back Andy, correct? Certainly you wouldn't want to be associated with such a group?

Not much reason for me to return. I'm making much better coin than I would pushing tin. I'll likely come back just long enough to get requaled (I'm eyeing buying an L-39 Albatros down the road and would like to get recurrent), burn my sick leave, and establish a retirement date. I'll be retirement eligible (50) in 2010, but my number's so low that I wouldn't expect to get close to recall until 2014 at the very earliest. ... that's assuming that UAUA survives.

Ualdriver, you guys can keep blaming every bad thing that happens on management. Reality is that the entire industry's in a tailspin. Deal with it and quit your griping about management. Yeah, they're partially at fault, but the pilots have more blame than management as far as creating a lousy work environment.

 

[jmreii]

I agree with your analysis there.

However, I think the point many on here are trying to make is that the government is going to come up with the loan guarantees that keep the credit card companies off United and other airlines' backs. The trouble with this sort of thinking is that we, as a nation, need to draw the line somewhere. Which airline do we prop up next? Unfortunately, this sort of thinking can only stop when there is either an administration change or the public becomes outraged (much like the health care debate in August)

United was and still can be a great airline. Good luck to everyone over there. The sooner you get those Tilton-types out of there the closer you will be to recovery. It's just too easy for these guys to blame the economy. At some point you have to start running an airline. The well is dry with regard to employee concessions. That dog don't hunt anymore.

I disagree with your statement about the government bailing out any airline without the citizens worrying about deficits which they should have been worrying about long before we drove this economy into the crap hole. I have looked into the mirror and now it is your turn.

 

[Lear70]

I disagree with your statement about the government bailing out any airline without the citizens worrying about deficits which they should have been worrying about long before we drove this economy into the crap hole. I have looked into the mirror and now it is your turn.

I think you're ignoring how deluded the sheeple (general American populace) are right now... You and I may be highly concerned over the spending practices of ALL administrations in the last 2 decades, but most Americans aren't as long as they can continue to buy their cheap Walmart goods, drive their shiny car to work, and take cheap vacations for less than it costs the airline to produce the flight.

I could be wrong, and maybe Obama will allow an airline (not necessarily UAL, just whoever ends up in bankruptcy next) to fall, as a way to appease the American people who are starting to wake up and realize the financial impact of his spending practices on the next 2 generations of Americans to come.

But history in the last two decades has shown us that the American Government takes care of the airlines; whether that's because of the huge lobbying machine the ATA has in place or because they really are concerned about tens of thousands MORE unemployed Americans on the streets, it doesn't matter if the end result is the continuation of the morass that is our airline industry.

 

[MALSR]

UA isn't going anywhere...Skywest will just buy them out come winter just before UA goes under. Afterall, Skywest has all their money anyway.

 

[eaglesview]

Ualdriver, you guys can keep blaming every bad thing that happens on management. Reality is that the entire industry's in a tailspin. Deal with it and quit your griping about management. Yeah, they're partially at fault, but the pilots have more blame than management as far as creating a lousy work environment.

Care to elaborate on that one??

 

[G4G5]

Hi!



I thought that, basically, all of UAL's assets were already leveraged to raise cash, so that they cannot sell any of them?

cliff
NBO

Chase is a bank, they would much rather have the money. They don't want to see UAL fail, but it's the case of the loan shark and the gambler. Chase will keep lending them money and crazy interest rates and bad terms until it's impossible for them to pay it back.

UAL is free to sell the assets anytime to pay back the terms of the loan. The problem is, their isn't a single legacy carrier now that has the ability pay out a Billion+ in cash(Delta has the most free cash but they don't nee the Pacific). AMR is the most likly purchaser but they are in the weakest position forget, (USAIR).

In this economy CAL is not willing to commit suicide by paying out over a billion for something that they in essence already have. Otherwise you are borrowing the money at a crazy interest rate from a bank like Chase and just hopping into the same fire that UAL is already in.

Everyone is waiting around for a fire sale and that's just not going to happen for years to come. Until the industry turns and Chase determines that they can force UAL to sell for a health profit (industry turns and CAL or AMR has free cash), they will just keep lending them money.

The thing that hurts UAL's pilots(and every other failing carrier) is the new Bond seniority integration methodology. Neither AMR or CAL's pilot group will be willing to agree to the terms of the new legislation, their will be no merger. If UAL has to sell any assets, no pilots will change hands, because neither pilot group would ever agree to losing seniority while not having a contract and pilots out on furlough.

 

[Ticker]

.......

 

[ualdriver]

Ualdriver, you guys can keep blaming every bad thing that happens on management. Reality is that the entire industry's in a tailspin. Deal with it and quit your griping about management. Yeah, they're partially at fault, but the pilots have more blame than management as far as creating a lousy work environment.

So you aren't resigning? Seems kind of hypocritical to me to paint with such a broad brush, calling me and my peers "self serving idiots" and all. If you'd put your money where you mouth is, you'd submit your resignation tomorrow and be done with us. If I honestly felt that way about my peers at a particular carrier, the LAST thing I would do is associate with them, especially when there appears to be no apparent reason to do so.

I shouldn't gripe about my management's poor performance? Really? Let's see- 3 years in bankruptcy, huge pay cuts (46%-ish), trashed work rules, lost pensions, 1.5% raises over the past several years, pi$$ing away cash in DIV's and paying down low interest debt WITH CASH in order to pay said DIV, (I'll give them a pass on the hedging losses), a couple of thousand pilots furloughed, and despite all of those advantages these guys STILL can't get their act together. Never mind the lack of leadership, the outsourcing, and the recent Aer Lingus end around. Yet the pilots are MORE responsible for creating a lousy work environment? Really? Perhaps we should be nominating Glenn for CEO of the year?

It's one thing as a corporation in an industry experiencing a down cycle to get dragged down along with the cycle. It's another when a management team gets every advantage they could possibly want through the bankruptcy courts and the 1113c process and STILL be losing.

 

[vetrider]

Well I didn't see the article in USA Today, and there didn't appear to be any other big news either. It'll probably be recycled info from many months ago anyway, with a bunch of quotes from Vaughan Cordle or that other line pilot analyst from American.

Whatever.

 

[contrail67]

USA Today will run an article this Tuesday that delves into this very subject. It may run a day later if there is more pressing news, but for now it is slated to run Tuesday, September 8th. I'm hearing that the article will focus a lot of attention on UAL's "liquidity crisis," if there is one.

Not that I'm advocating the USA Today as a reliable source of airline news.

Stay tuned...

Ok we are still staying tuned...It is Tuesday now...where is the article?
Exactly....more flame.

 

[Flopgut]

Care to elaborate on that one??

Here you go: Senior UAL ALPA tore up layers of elaborate scope that took years to get in one hairbrained, hail Mary to save the A fund. Question: Would you rather have that scope back now or the A plan? Whoops! The A plan is gone! Nice job you senior dipsticks. I don't know one UAL pilot under 40 at the time that didn't already know throwing out scope wasn't going to work.

Next up: Career progression. "Oh yeah, we can re-mortgage that easy enough" Says UAL ALPA. Put Andy on the street with no real clear path back or out or...anywhere (flying that is) so another old, stinking, foolish, failed UAL guy/gal with 25+ years can further fc-up the career.

Tell me the place wouldn't be better if there weren't at least some retirements? Tell me it wouldn't be better with at least more than one sentence of scope?

And that's just the tip of what you've screwed up.

 

[eaglesview]

Here you go: Senior UAL ALPA tore up layers of elaborate scope that took years to get in one hairbrained, hail Mary to save the A fund. Question: Would you rather have that scope back now or the A plan? Whoops! The A plan is gone! Nice job you senior dipsticks. I don't know one UAL pilot under 40 at the time that didn't already know throwing out scope wasn't going to work.

Next up: Career progression. "Oh yeah, we can re-mortgage that easy enough" Says UAL ALPA. Put Andy on the street with no real clear path back or out or...anywhere (flying that is) so another old, stinking, foolish, failed UAL guy/gal with 25+ years can further fc-up the career.

Tell me the place wouldn't be better if there weren't at least some retirements? Tell me it wouldn't be better with at least more than one sentence of scope?

And that's just the tip of what you've screwed up.

If you think for a minute I am going to defend ALPA you are sadly mistaken. I would love to hear your explanation on how UAL ALPA somehow played a hand in 65 so you can steer that nonsence towards Herndon. If you need directions I'll help you with that

Now scum bag explain to me what a senior UAL ALPA pilot is. You are so brave to call me one behind your keyboard. Meanwhile I continue to bounce down the pay scale like everyone else due to the scope issue which ONE ALPA rep signed away with his pen WITHOUT membership ratification.

With that said I asked ANDY to explain to me how the United Pilots are more to blame for the position our company is in than UAL management. I invite you to do the same.