"TSO Approved" Headsets

[Vegaspilot99]

25.1457 Refers to CVRs, and supports the requirement for Boom Mics.

121.581 Refers to the observers equipment, they decide.

AC20-110L Refers to TSO items, see TSO C57a.

The requirement to use TSO qualified equipment where a TSO exists are implied. The requirement for "boom mic" requirement also implies that for a part/product to be satisfactory it must be meet TSO approval. One of the requirements of the TSO process deals with the failure modes, all TSO approved products requiring power failure to the safe mode. The uFlymike unit is fail unsafe, when the batteries go dead, the unit stops working.SKYW policy manual/SOP requires "headsets to be used below 18,000MSL" This debate is like almost all the debates in aviation, no one will know until something happens. What are you gonna do when the batteries fail in cruise and you miss the descent call from ATC, or you miss a heading and fly into restricted airspace, or even worse miss that traffic call/turn? As cheap as pilots are, it is mind boggling that you would fiddle with a product that cause so much havoc if it were to fail. uFlymike has a vested interest in this debate, I have none, except for the academic. Do the math and your own research. Sorry 'bout the mistyping on the reg numbers, I am tired after a long flight day.
PBR

Ok, thanks for the clarification. It is a good setup, just that one downside...but if you keep an eye on it, you shouldn't have a problem. I've also been trying the Telex 850, but it isn't as comfortable or quiet (been told the 700/900 are louder up front than the 200) and I do have the Bose X, but it's too big to fit in my flight case with all the other jet crap I gotta carry. Dilemmas, dilemmas. Hopefully Mike gets the TSO cert and the problem will be no more.

 

[Vegaspilot99]

I called Lightspeed in Oregon yesterday. They confirmed that none of their headsets are TSO'd.

Exactly...aside from the battery issue on the QC2, it's no different than using a Mach 1 or other LS headset, yet no one mentions anything, but the UFM/Bose combo (which is so far one of the best setups I've ever tried).

 

[PBRstreetgang]

PBR,

First thing I'd think is Skywest needs to re-evaluate their hiring criteria... the example you give is the mentality and lack of SA that causes airplanes to run out of gas or run into the side of a granite cloud.

Sennheiser ANRs fail without warning and have no warning system other than FAILURE; the QC2 is the only ANR headset I know of that gives a low battery warning. In order to restore audio in a Sennheiser, you have to realize you've lost audio. IF you realize it, you have to turn the power switch OFF to restore audio.

Direct your question to Sennheiser or one of the other ANR headset manufacturers that actually make headsets that TRULY fail without warning.

There's nothing but "what if" speculation that a QC2 is any more at risk of failure than other headsets. There's nothing to justify the concern.

We're still pursuing TSO certification, in spite of the fact it's a worthless system. It makes the ignorant feel more secure, so we're going to make them happy, too.

Lightspeed, Sigtronics and others are not TSO'd. They realize there's no requirement and a huge pain in the @#ss.

Mike

Yeah Mike,
I choose to err on the side of safety and legality! We have had this debate over and over, I have no dog in this fight, you on the other hand do. You pick and choose he portions of the regs to support your "product". If you wanna throw "SA" issues and "granite" into the mix, YEAH right, I choose the conservative path and you get all PMSy. I choose the safer route, hence my position your product does not belong in the cockpit of a 121 A/C. Last time I checked I haven't had a FAR violation, hit any granite, or anything else for that matter. I could also get $hitty, about your airline, but I won't, everyone knows the examples. Keep after that TSO, if you get one your product, I will welcome your product, until then uFlymike will not fly in the cockpit of an A/C I am in command of.
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

PBR,

First thing I'd think is Skywest needs to re-evaluate their hiring criteria... the example you give is the mentality and lack of SA that causes airplanes to run out of gas or run into the side of a granite cloud.

Sennheiser ANRs fail without warning and have no warning system other than FAILURE; the QC2 is the only ANR headset I know of that gives a low battery warning. In order to restore audio in a Sennheiser, you have to realize you've lost audio. IF you realize it, you have to turn the power switch OFF to restore audio.

Direct your question to Sennheiser or one of the other ANR headset manufacturers that actually make headsets that TRULY fail without warning.

There's nothing but "what if" speculation that a QC2 is any more at risk of failure than other headsets. There's nothing to justify the concern.

We're still pursuing TSO certification, in spite of the fact it's a worthless system. It makes the ignorant feel more secure, so we're going to make them happy, too.

Lightspeed, Sigtronics and others are not TSO'd. They realize there's no requirement and a huge pain in the @#ss.

Mike

Yeah Mike,
I choose to err on the side of safety and legality! We have had this debate over and over, I have no dog in this fight, you on the other hand do. You pick and choose he portions of the regs to support your "product". If you wanna throw "SA" issues and "granite" into the mix, YEAH right, I choose the conservative path and you get all PMSy. I choose the safer route, hence my position your product does not belong in the cockpit of a 121 A/C. Last time I checked I haven't had a FAR violation, hit any granite, or anything else for that matter. I could also get $hitty, about your airline, but I won't, everyone knows the examples. Keep after that TSO, if you get one your product, I will welcome your product, until then uFlymike will not fly in the cockpit of an A/C I am in command of.
PBR

 

[Vegaspilot99]

PBR,
Just curious...what are you gonna do if an FO shows up with the UFM (or any other Non-TSO'd headset) and thats all they have for a headset? Ear plugs and the hand mike??

 

[Jet41]

I have better things to do than inspect my FO's headset. BFD!

 

[CA1900]

Yeah Mike,
I choose to err on the side of safety and legality! We have had this debate over and over, I have no dog in this fight, you on the other hand do. You pick and choose he portions of the regs to support your "product".

Just because he has an interest doesn't make him wrong.

"Pick and choose" FARs? Hardly. What is the FAR that specifies that a headset must meet any TSO? By number, please.


I'll save you the time. There isn't one. Your words:

The requirement to use TSO qualified equipment where a TSO exists are implied.

I'd laugh a fed off the plane if he tried to violate me for "implied" FARs. And an Administrative Law Judge would quickly throw it out.

I used a non-TSO'd headset in 121 ops for years, with feds observing. I use one now.

 

[mblackey]

Yeah Mike,
I choose to err on the side of safety and legality! We have had this debate over and over, I have no dog in this fight, you on the other hand do. You pick and choose he portions of the regs to support your "product". If you wanna throw "SA" issues and "granite" into the mix, YEAH right, I choose the conservative path and you get all PMSy. I choose the safer route, hence my position your product does not belong in the cockpit of a 121 A/C. Last time I checked I haven't had a FAR violation, hit any granite, or anything else for that matter. I could also get $hitty, about your airline, but I won't, everyone knows the examples. Keep after that TSO, if you get one your product, I will welcome your product, until then uFlymike will not fly in the cockpit of an A/C I am in command of.
PBR

My "dog in this hunt" is about supporting our existing customers.

As far as "erring on the side of safety," good on you. 37+ years and counting without incident here; good philosophy to live by.

As far as "erring on the legal side," to me that means making up ones own rules [more is better]. Never used that one. IMO, it doesn't support a conservative safety philosophy, especially when flying with a crew.

As far as the personal slams amongst pilots, won't participate.

Mike

 

[PBRstreetgang]

"Pick and choose" FARs? Hardly. What is the FAR that specifies that a headset must meet any TSO? By number, please.
I used a non-TSO'd headset in 121 ops for years, with feds observing. I use one now.

21.305(b) There is a TSO standard for headsets and mics C-57a, C-58, C-58a. Pick one and read it its quite informative.

121.359 CVR and such:

(g) For those aircraft equipped to record the uninterrupted audio signals received by a boom or a mask microphone, the flight crewmembers are required to use the boom microphone below 18,000 feet mean sea level. No person may operate a large turbine engine powered airplane or a large pressurized airplane with four reciprocating engines manufactured after October 11, 1991, or on which a cockpit voice recorder has been installed after October 11, 1991, unless it is equipped to record the uninterrupted audio signal received by a boom or mask microphone in accordance with §25.1457(c)(5) of this chapter.

The use of the boom mic is required by the above reg. This is an academic issue, until something happens, nothing will happen, you wanna be the test subject? Everyone knows the regs are written on tombstones in blood.
PBR

 

[norskman2]

21.305(b) There is a TSO standard for headsets and mics C-57a, C-58, C-58a. Pick one and read it its quite informative.

121.359 CVR and such:

(g) For those aircraft equipped to record the uninterrupted audio signals received by a boom or a mask microphone, the flight crewmembers are required to use the boom microphone below 18,000 feet mean sea level. No person may operate a large turbine engine powered airplane or a large pressurized airplane with four reciprocating engines manufactured after October 11, 1991, or on which a cockpit voice recorder has been installed after October 11, 1991, unless it is equipped to record the uninterrupted audio signal received by a boom or mask microphone in accordance with §25.1457(c)(5) of this chapter.

The use of the boom mic is required by the above reg. This is an academic issue, until something happens, nothing will happen, you wanna be the test subject? Everyone knows the regs are written on tombstones in blood.
PBR

PBR, admire your tenacity, but give it up, man. The letter from the FREAKIN' FAA sez:

"There is no specific requirement that aircraft operating under 14 CFR part 121 be equipped with
headsets or that flight crewmembers use headsets produced under a TSOA."