"TSO Approved" Headsets

[PBRstreetgang]

Ok, so I looked up all these regs and 121.359(g) and 25.1457 only refer to boom mikes and CVRs. The other two sections didn't even mention headsets anywhere that I saw (121.305 is instruments and 121.317(b) is No Smoke Sign/Fasten Seatbelt Sign usage). Anyhow in all these sections no where did it say anything whatsoever about TSO applicability or headsets needing/required to TSO'd. So where specifically does it state all headsets used in 121 ops must be TSO'd??? I don't see it anywhere and it's not required per the SKW FOM.

25.1457 Refers to CVRs, and supports the requirement for Boom Mics.

121.581 Refers to the observers equipment, they decide.

AC20-110L Refers to TSO items, see TSO C57a.

The requirement to use TSO qualified equipment where a TSO exists are implied. The requirement for "boom mic" requirement also implies that for a part/product to be satisfactory it must be meet TSO approval. One of the requirements of the TSO process deals with the failure modes, all TSO approved products requiring power failure to the safe mode. The uFlymike unit is fail unsafe, when the batteries go dead, the unit stops working.SKYW policy manual/SOP requires "headsets to be used below 18,000MSL" This debate is like almost all the debates in aviation, no one will know until something happens. What are you gonna do when the batteries fail in cruise and you miss the descent call from ATC, or you miss a heading and fly into restricted airspace, or even worse miss that traffic call/turn? As cheap as pilots are, it is mind boggling that you would fiddle with a product that cause so much havoc if it were to fail. uFlymike has a vested interest in this debate, I have none, except for the academic. Do the math and your own research. Sorry 'bout the mistyping on the reg numbers, I am tired after a long flight day.
PBR

 

[trachyte11]

I use a uflymike on the crj. It takes one AAA battery. I can change the battery on my headset faster than I can don the damn O2 mask. PBR, don't think that's gonna cause us to bust airspace. Not to mention the headset itself gives you something like 5 hours of warning before the battery dies. That question was even in one of our (skyw) quarterly training bulletins. The only requirements/regs are that we use a headset with a boom mic on it. Nothing in our op specs. Nothing in the FAR's.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I use a uflymike on the crj. It takes one AAA battery. I can change the battery on my headset faster than I can don the damn O2 mask. PBR, don't think that's gonna cause us to bust airspace. Not to mention the headset itself gives you something like 5 hours of warning before the battery dies. That question was even in one of our (skyw) quarterly training bulletins. The only requirements/regs are that we use a headset with a boom mic on it. Nothing in our op specs. Nothing in the FAR's.

You keep telling yourself that, over and over. That will make it legal. You won't use that setup while you fly with me. Good luck.
PBR

 

[norskman2]

You keep telling yourself that, over and over. That will make it legal. You won't use that setup while you fly with me. Good luck.
PBR

The point is: there is NOTHING in current FARs that require using a TSO'd headset.

 

[mblackey]

The FAA published a letter 12 Oct 07, answering a request for clarification from an AA pilot and attorney on whether TSO'd headsets are required.

Bottom line, no requirement. A pilot can use any headset he/she wants as long as he/she doesn't mess with any installed equipment.

Battery powered headsets may be used as long as their use wouldn't cause you to go NORDO. As long as you're not flying solo and there's other comm equipment available in the aircraft. That's not going to happen.

The recipient of this letter coordinated a conference call with AA reps and Paul Greer, the FAA rep in D.C. who drafted the letter for Rebecca McPherson, FAA Asst Chief Counsel for Regulations. They confirmed what the FAA letter states.

Here's a link to the letter: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/2007/Whatley.pdf

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Mike,
2 day to get to defend your personal ATM! Dang you are slipping. Come on man step it up, the cheap SKYW guys are buying your product depend on you to make them feel the $500.00 they just spent was a "good" investment. Bottom line any device that fails unsafe isn't worth the money. I will ask the question again, If the battery goes dead , does your product still work? Didn't think so. If the perfect storm of stupidity comes together in a CRJ(most likely), both pilots wearing your product, and both have a battery failure, and miss a critical radio call causing......you fill in the blank, how will you feel?
PBR

 

[Brasilia Flyer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe any LightSpeed headsets are TSO'd either.

 

[mblackey]

PBR,

First thing I'd think is Skywest needs to re-evaluate their hiring criteria... the example you give is the mentality and lack of SA that causes airplanes to run out of gas or run into the side of a granite cloud.

Sennheiser ANRs fail without warning and have no warning system other than FAILURE; the QC2 is the only ANR headset I know of that gives a low battery warning. In order to restore audio in a Sennheiser, you have to realize you've lost audio. IF you realize it, you have to turn the power switch OFF to restore audio.

Direct your question to Sennheiser or one of the other ANR headset manufacturers that actually make headsets that TRULY fail without warning.

There's nothing but "what if" speculation that a QC2 is any more at risk of failure than other headsets. There's nothing to justify the concern.

We're still pursuing TSO certification, in spite of the fact it's a worthless system. It makes the ignorant feel more secure, so we're going to make them happy, too.

Lightspeed, Sigtronics and others are not TSO'd. They realize there's no requirement and a huge pain in the @#ss.

Mike

 

[Brasilia Flyer]

Bottom line any device that fails unsafe isn't worth the money. I will ask the question again, If the battery goes dead , does your product still work?
PBR

If your headset has a failure does it still work? I understand the battery issue (I have the QC2 setup), but you show me any headset that is fail proof. I've never had any issue with my QC2 in the 3000 hours I've flown with it.

 

[norskman2]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe any LightSpeed headsets are TSO'd either.

I called Lightspeed in Oregon yesterday. They confirmed that none of their headsets are TSO'd.

 

[Vegaspilot99]

25.1457 Refers to CVRs, and supports the requirement for Boom Mics.

121.581 Refers to the observers equipment, they decide.

AC20-110L Refers to TSO items, see TSO C57a.

The requirement to use TSO qualified equipment where a TSO exists are implied. The requirement for "boom mic" requirement also implies that for a part/product to be satisfactory it must be meet TSO approval. One of the requirements of the TSO process deals with the failure modes, all TSO approved products requiring power failure to the safe mode. The uFlymike unit is fail unsafe, when the batteries go dead, the unit stops working.SKYW policy manual/SOP requires "headsets to be used below 18,000MSL" This debate is like almost all the debates in aviation, no one will know until something happens. What are you gonna do when the batteries fail in cruise and you miss the descent call from ATC, or you miss a heading and fly into restricted airspace, or even worse miss that traffic call/turn? As cheap as pilots are, it is mind boggling that you would fiddle with a product that cause so much havoc if it were to fail. uFlymike has a vested interest in this debate, I have none, except for the academic. Do the math and your own research. Sorry 'bout the mistyping on the reg numbers, I am tired after a long flight day.
PBR

Ok, thanks for the clarification. It is a good setup, just that one downside...but if you keep an eye on it, you shouldn't have a problem. I've also been trying the Telex 850, but it isn't as comfortable or quiet (been told the 700/900 are louder up front than the 200) and I do have the Bose X, but it's too big to fit in my flight case with all the other jet crap I gotta carry. Dilemmas, dilemmas. Hopefully Mike gets the TSO cert and the problem will be no more.

 

[Vegaspilot99]

I called Lightspeed in Oregon yesterday. They confirmed that none of their headsets are TSO'd.

Exactly...aside from the battery issue on the QC2, it's no different than using a Mach 1 or other LS headset, yet no one mentions anything, but the UFM/Bose combo (which is so far one of the best setups I've ever tried).

 

[PBRstreetgang]

PBR,

First thing I'd think is Skywest needs to re-evaluate their hiring criteria... the example you give is the mentality and lack of SA that causes airplanes to run out of gas or run into the side of a granite cloud.

Sennheiser ANRs fail without warning and have no warning system other than FAILURE; the QC2 is the only ANR headset I know of that gives a low battery warning. In order to restore audio in a Sennheiser, you have to realize you've lost audio. IF you realize it, you have to turn the power switch OFF to restore audio.

Direct your question to Sennheiser or one of the other ANR headset manufacturers that actually make headsets that TRULY fail without warning.

There's nothing but "what if" speculation that a QC2 is any more at risk of failure than other headsets. There's nothing to justify the concern.

We're still pursuing TSO certification, in spite of the fact it's a worthless system. It makes the ignorant feel more secure, so we're going to make them happy, too.

Lightspeed, Sigtronics and others are not TSO'd. They realize there's no requirement and a huge pain in the @#ss.

Mike

Yeah Mike,
I choose to err on the side of safety and legality! We have had this debate over and over, I have no dog in this fight, you on the other hand do. You pick and choose he portions of the regs to support your "product". If you wanna throw "SA" issues and "granite" into the mix, YEAH right, I choose the conservative path and you get all PMSy. I choose the safer route, hence my position your product does not belong in the cockpit of a 121 A/C. Last time I checked I haven't had a FAR violation, hit any granite, or anything else for that matter. I could also get $hitty, about your airline, but I won't, everyone knows the examples. Keep after that TSO, if you get one your product, I will welcome your product, until then uFlymike will not fly in the cockpit of an A/C I am in command of.
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

PBR,

First thing I'd think is Skywest needs to re-evaluate their hiring criteria... the example you give is the mentality and lack of SA that causes airplanes to run out of gas or run into the side of a granite cloud.

Sennheiser ANRs fail without warning and have no warning system other than FAILURE; the QC2 is the only ANR headset I know of that gives a low battery warning. In order to restore audio in a Sennheiser, you have to realize you've lost audio. IF you realize it, you have to turn the power switch OFF to restore audio.

Direct your question to Sennheiser or one of the other ANR headset manufacturers that actually make headsets that TRULY fail without warning.

There's nothing but "what if" speculation that a QC2 is any more at risk of failure than other headsets. There's nothing to justify the concern.

We're still pursuing TSO certification, in spite of the fact it's a worthless system. It makes the ignorant feel more secure, so we're going to make them happy, too.

Lightspeed, Sigtronics and others are not TSO'd. They realize there's no requirement and a huge pain in the @#ss.

Mike

Yeah Mike,
I choose to err on the side of safety and legality! We have had this debate over and over, I have no dog in this fight, you on the other hand do. You pick and choose he portions of the regs to support your "product". If you wanna throw "SA" issues and "granite" into the mix, YEAH right, I choose the conservative path and you get all PMSy. I choose the safer route, hence my position your product does not belong in the cockpit of a 121 A/C. Last time I checked I haven't had a FAR violation, hit any granite, or anything else for that matter. I could also get $hitty, about your airline, but I won't, everyone knows the examples. Keep after that TSO, if you get one your product, I will welcome your product, until then uFlymike will not fly in the cockpit of an A/C I am in command of.
PBR

 

[Vegaspilot99]

PBR,
Just curious...what are you gonna do if an FO shows up with the UFM (or any other Non-TSO'd headset) and thats all they have for a headset? Ear plugs and the hand mike??

 

[Jet41]

I have better things to do than inspect my FO's headset. BFD!

 

[CA1900]

Yeah Mike,
I choose to err on the side of safety and legality! We have had this debate over and over, I have no dog in this fight, you on the other hand do. You pick and choose he portions of the regs to support your "product".

Just because he has an interest doesn't make him wrong.

"Pick and choose" FARs? Hardly. What is the FAR that specifies that a headset must meet any TSO? By number, please.


I'll save you the time. There isn't one. Your words:

The requirement to use TSO qualified equipment where a TSO exists are implied.

I'd laugh a fed off the plane if he tried to violate me for "implied" FARs. And an Administrative Law Judge would quickly throw it out.

I used a non-TSO'd headset in 121 ops for years, with feds observing. I use one now.

 

[mblackey]

Yeah Mike,
I choose to err on the side of safety and legality! We have had this debate over and over, I have no dog in this fight, you on the other hand do. You pick and choose he portions of the regs to support your "product". If you wanna throw "SA" issues and "granite" into the mix, YEAH right, I choose the conservative path and you get all PMSy. I choose the safer route, hence my position your product does not belong in the cockpit of a 121 A/C. Last time I checked I haven't had a FAR violation, hit any granite, or anything else for that matter. I could also get $hitty, about your airline, but I won't, everyone knows the examples. Keep after that TSO, if you get one your product, I will welcome your product, until then uFlymike will not fly in the cockpit of an A/C I am in command of.
PBR

My "dog in this hunt" is about supporting our existing customers.

As far as "erring on the side of safety," good on you. 37+ years and counting without incident here; good philosophy to live by.

As far as "erring on the legal side," to me that means making up ones own rules [more is better]. Never used that one. IMO, it doesn't support a conservative safety philosophy, especially when flying with a crew.

As far as the personal slams amongst pilots, won't participate.

Mike

 

[PBRstreetgang]

"Pick and choose" FARs? Hardly. What is the FAR that specifies that a headset must meet any TSO? By number, please.
I used a non-TSO'd headset in 121 ops for years, with feds observing. I use one now.

21.305(b) There is a TSO standard for headsets and mics C-57a, C-58, C-58a. Pick one and read it its quite informative.

121.359 CVR and such:

(g) For those aircraft equipped to record the uninterrupted audio signals received by a boom or a mask microphone, the flight crewmembers are required to use the boom microphone below 18,000 feet mean sea level. No person may operate a large turbine engine powered airplane or a large pressurized airplane with four reciprocating engines manufactured after October 11, 1991, or on which a cockpit voice recorder has been installed after October 11, 1991, unless it is equipped to record the uninterrupted audio signal received by a boom or mask microphone in accordance with §25.1457(c)(5) of this chapter.

The use of the boom mic is required by the above reg. This is an academic issue, until something happens, nothing will happen, you wanna be the test subject? Everyone knows the regs are written on tombstones in blood.
PBR

 

[norskman2]

21.305(b) There is a TSO standard for headsets and mics C-57a, C-58, C-58a. Pick one and read it its quite informative.

121.359 CVR and such:

(g) For those aircraft equipped to record the uninterrupted audio signals received by a boom or a mask microphone, the flight crewmembers are required to use the boom microphone below 18,000 feet mean sea level. No person may operate a large turbine engine powered airplane or a large pressurized airplane with four reciprocating engines manufactured after October 11, 1991, or on which a cockpit voice recorder has been installed after October 11, 1991, unless it is equipped to record the uninterrupted audio signal received by a boom or mask microphone in accordance with §25.1457(c)(5) of this chapter.

The use of the boom mic is required by the above reg. This is an academic issue, until something happens, nothing will happen, you wanna be the test subject? Everyone knows the regs are written on tombstones in blood.
PBR

PBR, admire your tenacity, but give it up, man. The letter from the FREAKIN' FAA sez:

"There is no specific requirement that aircraft operating under 14 CFR part 121 be equipped with
headsets or that flight crewmembers use headsets produced under a TSOA."