Trouble at AMR

[G4G5]

I am not sure where most of you are getting your info from but the crew lounge is not the best source.

First off NO jobs at Eagle will be lost:
Carty is on record stating that he will NOT put 1000 Eagle pilot's out on the street, only to retrain AA pilots to do the same job. The company can not afford 1000 needless training cycles.

Jobs for Eagle will be GAINED:
The APA proposal is clear, "All AA flying will be done by APA pilots". Who is feeding AA in STL? This is the quickest most effictive way to get rid of the reverse code sharing that is stealing jobs. How many Eagle jobs will be created by gaining the Trans States and Chitaqua feed? Plenty. So far ALPA has been helpless in this job loss.

This will also create the ability for growth in the under 50 seat market. Right now AA has an agreement to sell Executive because they can't grow Eagle under the current APA scope clause. This deal allows Eagle to keep Executive AND grow in the under 50 seat market.

Pay will go UP
What can Eagle do under it's current ALPA contract, NOTHING. No money. With a merger into APA, the pay issue WILL be revisited to bring the new AA/Eagle pilots upto or ahead of the industry(I'll leave this to the negotiators). The APA is not about to work for the current Eagle rates BUT they will work for an improved Com Air max pilot rate. Carty will go for this because he knows he's going to pay it sooner or later. But if he goes for it today he get unlimited growth in the RJ market, waiting years could put us at a competitive disadvantage.

The 70 seater will go to the AA pilots.
My guess is that anything above the 50 seater will go to APA. So what? The current deal will have the Eagle pilots flow through into AA mainline, so your chances of getting to a 70 seater will improve because AA will be allowed to purchase unlimited 70 seaters(because it will not longer be restricted by Scope). How long will it take most Eagle guys to get into the left seat of the 20-RJ70's? Will an improved flowthrough to mainline improve the career expectations for most of the Eagle pilots. Yes. Is this deal worth voting No on just to protect 20- RJ70 jobs, NO. Especially considering that for most Eagle pilots it will improve their chances to get into an RJ70(since their will be more, see Comair/ASA)

The 70 seater has always been the APA's, if they desired. Fact: Carty first offered up these during the last contract TA. He wants unlimited growth, he's not concerned about who flies it. With the current Scope clause, APA contract already has ALL flying over 75,000# (going to AA mainline). So what do the Eagle pilots get if AA mgt decides to purchase the new ERJ 170 and 90 seaters vs the Bombardier RJ70? Nothing, because it weighs more then 75,000#, it goes to mainline. Considering AA's current ties to Embarer and the fact that they are offering much better financing then the CRJ70's, is this a chance the Eagle pilots should take? No, the APA could cut a deal with AA mgt on it's own getting ALL the ERJ 170/190 flying, and leave Eagle with nothing.

So tell me again how you are getting screwed?
Growth is improved
Jobs are created, not lost
Pay is improved
Career expectations are improved
humm...........

http://www.embraer.com/english/

 

[pilotyip]

Pay go up?

With AA loosing $M's per day, where is the extra money going to come from to pay the Eagel pilots more, when the Eagel pilots get more, are the Eagle Mechs going be happy with their present rate, how about FA's, ground support. The day of the regular pay increase is over at the major's and anyone who thinks otherwise is in a state of denial.

 

[80drvr]

Re: Pay go up?

With AA loosing $M's per day, where is the extra money going to come from to pay the Eagel pilots more, when the Eagel pilots get more, are the Eagle Mechs going be happy with their present rate, how about FA's, ground support. The day of the regular pay increase is over at the major's and anyone who thinks otherwise is in a state of denial.

The money is going to come out of the APA/AA contract currently in negotiations. APA will pay for one list out of some part of the contract pie....how much it costs is to be determined and that cost has to be weighed against the benefit to AMR as well as the APA pilots.

 

[captain]

from what it looks to me the only thing that they will do with the payscale is maybe make the Eagle FO payscale top out at 12 years instead of 8. Oh, but you will have a number!

 

[deceptibum]

apa proposal

I just have a question for all the AA pilots with knowledge of the latest "merge" proposal. Have any of you even asked the eagle pilot group about their opinions on it? From all the talk AA pilots give of how it would be so much better for us, I ask you to go out in the airport and listen the eagle pilot opinion. I assure you it differs greatly.

 

[WyoHerkdriver]

Why don't you tell us why it is so bad for the Eagle guys? I am a furloughed AA pilot so I would personally like to see it happen, but I still do not see why the Eagle guys would be so upset about the deal. In any event, if it does happen, it wil take years to iron out the details and implement.

 

[G4G5]

To answer a few questions:

The money will come from the revenues generated by the additional RJ's. They are not going to add RJ's to routes that don't make money.

Their will also be additional revenues from the STL feed. Trans States and Chitaqua don't fly the routes for free. Carty is already paying a premium for the STL feed. IMHO he doesn't care who he pays, especially if he can get control of the STL feed and can increase the flying.

The F100 are going away, the CRJ70 or the ERJ170/190/195 has to be cheaper to operate then the F100. Their routes flown in an RJ will increase revenues

The APA is better at this then I am, my point is their are plenty of ways that this plan will generate additional revenues to increase the pay rates. Besides what do the Eagle pilots have to lose? Under their current deal they get NOTHING, so the last time I checked something was better then nothing.

Again, IMHO I would bet that AA mgt would rather purchase the ERJ's then the CRJ's. The CRJ's were just a stop gap until the ERJ's were certified. The time is here. The ERJ is the first regional jet designed with the sole purpose of being an RJ (not a Canadair 601). With it's 6'7" stand up cabin, it is bound to be a pax favorite when compaired to the competition. This is the marketing edge that AA mgt want's(more room through out coach, stand up cabin, real overhead bins). The ERJ will seem much less like a commuter allowing AA to sell the airline as All AA not, Delta and Comair/ASA. They will have a much better product then the competition. Hey, what if they add XM satelite radio? So, as an Eagle pilot do you take the chance that all of the over 75,000# (all the ERJ170/190/195) flying will go to AA mainline? Or do you get on board? AA mgt will have no problem getting rid of 20-CRJ's, with or without the Eagle pilots on the APA list.


As far as the Eagle pilots opnion, I am sure this is just because of lack of knowledge on the issue. Since nothing official has come out of the negotiations, their is nothing to offer the Eagle pilots. But from what I understand the Eagle ALPA MEC has supported the proposal. Rumors tend to get blown out of proportion, does anyone honestly think that the Eagle MEC will bring a lose/lose deal up to its membership for a vote?

 

[justApilot]

G4G5,
Good posts amigo.

 

[Lumber Yak]

6'7" headroom?

We get your point, but that figure is waaaay wrong. You won't find 6'7" headroom in an ERJ - far from it. Otherwise very good points.

 

[deceptibum]

proposal

Good points I agree. However, if you listened to the Eagle ALPA MEC hotline, our officers disagree with parts of the proposal. The most obvious one detested by all eagle pilots is the ability for mainline to hire above eagle pilots into mainline fleet.

 

[G4G5]

I agree the APA should not be looking to hire ahead of the Eagle pilots IF their is one list but nobody is asking me.

IMHO this is to alow mgt to cut back on the number of training cycles. I don't think the APA cares(no pilot ever cares where the number behind him/her comes from) but my bet is that mgt does. They are always complaining about the number of training cycles that one 777 ca retiring creates. This is one way to cut back on training cycles. It's not a bad deal for the Eagle pilots IF the flow through is improved. Make it a guranteed ratio that allows for constant movement and folks won't care as much. Let's be realistic the current flow through stinks. Without one list it will only get worse, almost non existant if AA moves towards the above 75,000# ERJ's

BUT if the Eagle pilots were offered a 1:1 ratio then it would be so bad(it would be better then what you have now which is what we are after) One new hire and one Eagle pilot for every class.

Ex
A class of 30 new hires would have 15 from Eagle and 15 off the street. Make the 15 Eagle guys senior because they are AMR employees. It may not be perfect but it's far better then anything out their. I am sure the two unions have a better plan, their has to be something that will apease both sides and I am sure AA mgt has an acceptable ratio that will allow them to optimize the school house.

Again let's be realistic. This is not worth voting No over. Because, we have not seen the end of the furloughs(925 out). At 40 a month, it will take over 2 years just to get everybody back and flying. By the time we are hiring off the street again, we will 3-5 year away and looking at another contract. Except with the next contract the Eagle pilots will have a vote/say on what's important.

What's the hotline phone number?

Yes I said 6'7" cabin. That's why I provided the link to the Embraer web site. The ERJ 195 also has real overhead bins along with 1800 mile range and room for upto 110 pax.

Let's see do you think that an RJ capable of flying DFW/ORD/STL to anywhere in the greater 48 would interest AA mgt? Especially if it was a single type available in the 70/90/100/110 seat category. Perfect for the above 50 and less then the MD80's 129 pax.

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?&aircraft_genericsearch=Embraer 170

 

[bluesideup1]

What you don't understand we already have 50% of all american new hire classes for the next 7 years. That is what we got with the flow through. We have over 350 pilots at Eagle with AA numbers already and another 500 that are eligable and able to flow throught once hiring resumes, plus an average of 8-15 a month that will become qualified. We are guaranteed a min of 50% of new hire classes at AA. So there is no reason that any eagle pilot would accept someone junior to them coming into a piece of equipment that has better pay and schedules. If there is truely to be one list then that will never fly.

 

[Rick1128]

one list

The one list propaganda is just that propaganda. If you really look at the proposal, there are two lists. Mainline and Communter. If there were really one list, everyone would start at commuter and work their way upward. The lists would be merged in a manner acceptable to the major of both groups. NOT like what happened to the TWA folks.

This proposal is way too one sided. if there is to be true flow-through, then it needs to be total. Look down the line at this proposal. Put yourself in the place of the senior F/O on the commuter side. Eight years at the company and bid an RJ Captain slot. Mainline is slowing down some. When the bids are awarded, your name is not on the list. Every name on the list is a forloughed mainline pilot, all with three years or less at the company. Now what are your feelings toward mainline and the one list that got shoved down your throut?

Could it happen. The way the proposal is written, YES. And yes, there are issues with training costs. But there will be very long term reactions to this event. It will effect AMR/AA for decades. So ALL parties effected, MUST be actively involved. And the agreement needs to be one that is reasonably aceptable to ALL parties.

 

[throttlejockey]

This proposal is not much better than the current flow through agreement.

In order for it to be worthwhile for the most junior eagle pilot (who nobody at the APA seems to care about) you have to have ONE LIST. Nobody should be able to be hired in front of him PERIOD.

Sure, I can understand the method in which you can recall pilots from furlough can be negotiated, but hiring in front of that must junior eagle pilot is BS.

If the APA (and ALPA) really cares about the future of its membership it will focus on how to best protect the most JUNIOR person at each respective company, and not the most senior. But, since the folks that run these unions are usually the most senior guys, they have forgotten what its like to be at the bottom and they just don't have a CLUE.

Your training cycle argument is hogwash. With the proposed reduction in aircraft fleet types, and the judicious use of seat-locks, you can reduce the training cycle considerably.

The current proposal is a one-sided document. I am sure that it will be a long time before it will be acceptable to all parties, if ever.

 

[G4G5]

The fleet types argument is the reason why mgt wants two lists. Does anyone really think the APA cares where the new hires go. I am on the list and I agree they should go to the bottom BUT the fleet types are still too many. Even with the reduction you still have 777, A300(if they aren't gone by now they are staying), 767/757, 737, MD80. That's still 5 training cycles that one retirement generates. Look at 2005-2015 retirements. Mgt is concerned if you add ERJ170, ERJ145 and ATR 72 to the fleet type mix, training costs will spike. The size of the aircraft has little to do with the operational costs with the simulator and training.

The current flow through stinks when I was hired my class had 40 off the street guys and no Eagle pilots. How does that happen? You can tell me numbers but we all know that's not the way it works. We need a flow thorugh that actually allows folks to flow though. Not this wait 2 years stuff. I have 200 Eagle guys senior to me, funny thing is they are not getting mainline pay or bennies and I am. How many years of retirement will these guys lose out on now? What happens to the over 50 folks? Why because the flow through stinks. So if we can fix it, then it's better for the Eagle guys, right?

Anyone want to take the chance that what happened at CAL/DAL won't happen at AMR? Then talk to me about a flow through and one list. If the Eagle guys don't want on the list their is a chance that things could get worse. Who else besides AA has any sort of flow through? I don't know enough about the flow through portion of the contract to know if it could get worse. One thing for sure, selling Executive and reverse code sharing won't help it any.

AMR will not operate the RJ70 on one list and the RJ90 on another. They are not about to have two sets of pilots who are capable of flying the same equipment(you want to know where the money is coming for raises). Two sets of sims, work rules , maintenance, yada yada. The RJ90 flying goes to the APA(over 75K) so where do you think the RJ70 flying will go? Or is it eaiser to just sell/trade the 20 aircraft, because you can get what you paid for them start fresh with the ERJ170's. Either way Eagle winds up with nothing.

No RJ70, no pay raise, no STL flying, No pay raise, Nada.

So vote, No. Or ask yourself is it better then what we have now?