Trouble at AMR

[corky]

There needs to be some wording in there that says mainline can't hire new pilots until all commuter supplement pilots are off furlough

 

[pilot141]

Just a typo?

Jeez, DC-9, I guess at Comair they taught you guys to never make a typo on an internet message board? Maybe instead of hours of groundschool on proofreading you guys guys could take some schooling on flying?

Of course I am KIDDING. I am just pointing out the pointlessness of trying to disparage someone on these boards because of a simple typo.

The point here (as I understand it) is a free exchange of ideas, and that is NOT helped by someone denigrating another member for grammatical errors. If you understand the post, then the point is made.

From what I have seen, the APA proposal is very flexible. In fact management has requested a week off from Section 6 negotiations to look over the proposal. They also had a scheduling conflict with one their negotiators, but I still take this as a positive sign.

The point is that the APA is looking to do something different than what ALPA has done at DAL, UAL and USAir. By eventually getting everyone on one list the company is more flexible and can deploy jets as needed in different markets without worrying about scope clauses. I have no idea how the seniority lists might be merged, but as in any compromise, somone will be pissed.

Whether that is the junior guys on the AA list p ), or the junior guys on the Eagle list, I cannot say. What I do know is that the industry is changing, and AMR cannot keep doing what is has been doing.

What I see is AMR focusing on its international route structure, and biasing its domestic system to feed the international moneymaker. This probably means some (not a lot) of shrinkage in the domestic system, but if UAL goes Chapter 7 then everyone could be growing and gobbling up parts.

I honestly think that the "one list" idea is at least worth looking at in this time and age. The business has changed for the majors, and some thinking "outside the box" is needed. "One list" may not be a solution, but I think it is a better idea than the "airline within an airline" that has been tried again and again.

 

[DH200]

Review?

"In fact management has requested a week off from Section 6 negotiations to look over the proposal. "

Right! Could have something to do with...................Christmas?

You've obviously never talked at length with an Eagle pilot. In case you don't know where to find one, just look down.

 

[pilot141]

(Very patiently)

No, DH200, the week off from negotiations was LAST week (Dec 16-20th). This week, of course, already had a break for Christmas planned.

I spent 6 months in a crash pad with several Eagle pilots, and none of them seemed as patronizing as you. In fact, they were all great guys. I left the crashpad eight months ago so I haven't talked to them about this issue. I am curious as to their take on this proposal.

Note that I said their take on this issue, not yours.

 

[DH200]

Pilot 141

I don't mean to sound bitter, but much has changed since you crashed with the Eagle guys.
I know you're concerned for ALL pilots at AMR. I'm sorry if I offended you at all. We're in this mess together.
It's the way AMR does business that angers many at Eagle. I worked for another airline that was swallowed up by AMR, and the experience has not been a good one. Even before 9-11, things were headed in a very bad direction. The "us vs them" mentality is so childish and counter-productive. If a corporation is to survive and prosper, EVERYONE should be pulling in the same direction. I hate to sound like a broken record, but look at who's successful. Southwest and JetBlue. AMR loves conflict within it's ranks, and I see this proposal as another example of corporate gamesmanship.
I hope it all works out well, but I have little hope of seeing things change for the better any time soon.

I truely wish everyone a merry x-mas, and a happy new year.

 

[G4G5]

I am not sure where most of you are getting your info from but the crew lounge is not the best source.

First off NO jobs at Eagle will be lost:
Carty is on record stating that he will NOT put 1000 Eagle pilot's out on the street, only to retrain AA pilots to do the same job. The company can not afford 1000 needless training cycles.

Jobs for Eagle will be GAINED:
The APA proposal is clear, "All AA flying will be done by APA pilots". Who is feeding AA in STL? This is the quickest most effictive way to get rid of the reverse code sharing that is stealing jobs. How many Eagle jobs will be created by gaining the Trans States and Chitaqua feed? Plenty. So far ALPA has been helpless in this job loss.

This will also create the ability for growth in the under 50 seat market. Right now AA has an agreement to sell Executive because they can't grow Eagle under the current APA scope clause. This deal allows Eagle to keep Executive AND grow in the under 50 seat market.

Pay will go UP
What can Eagle do under it's current ALPA contract, NOTHING. No money. With a merger into APA, the pay issue WILL be revisited to bring the new AA/Eagle pilots upto or ahead of the industry(I'll leave this to the negotiators). The APA is not about to work for the current Eagle rates BUT they will work for an improved Com Air max pilot rate. Carty will go for this because he knows he's going to pay it sooner or later. But if he goes for it today he get unlimited growth in the RJ market, waiting years could put us at a competitive disadvantage.

The 70 seater will go to the AA pilots.
My guess is that anything above the 50 seater will go to APA. So what? The current deal will have the Eagle pilots flow through into AA mainline, so your chances of getting to a 70 seater will improve because AA will be allowed to purchase unlimited 70 seaters(because it will not longer be restricted by Scope). How long will it take most Eagle guys to get into the left seat of the 20-RJ70's? Will an improved flowthrough to mainline improve the career expectations for most of the Eagle pilots. Yes. Is this deal worth voting No on just to protect 20- RJ70 jobs, NO. Especially considering that for most Eagle pilots it will improve their chances to get into an RJ70(since their will be more, see Comair/ASA)

The 70 seater has always been the APA's, if they desired. Fact: Carty first offered up these during the last contract TA. He wants unlimited growth, he's not concerned about who flies it. With the current Scope clause, APA contract already has ALL flying over 75,000# (going to AA mainline). So what do the Eagle pilots get if AA mgt decides to purchase the new ERJ 170 and 90 seaters vs the Bombardier RJ70? Nothing, because it weighs more then 75,000#, it goes to mainline. Considering AA's current ties to Embarer and the fact that they are offering much better financing then the CRJ70's, is this a chance the Eagle pilots should take? No, the APA could cut a deal with AA mgt on it's own getting ALL the ERJ 170/190 flying, and leave Eagle with nothing.

So tell me again how you are getting screwed?
Growth is improved
Jobs are created, not lost
Pay is improved
Career expectations are improved
humm...........

http://www.embraer.com/english/

 

[pilotyip]

Pay go up?

With AA loosing $M's per day, where is the extra money going to come from to pay the Eagel pilots more, when the Eagel pilots get more, are the Eagle Mechs going be happy with their present rate, how about FA's, ground support. The day of the regular pay increase is over at the major's and anyone who thinks otherwise is in a state of denial.

 

[80drvr]

Re: Pay go up?

With AA loosing $M's per day, where is the extra money going to come from to pay the Eagel pilots more, when the Eagel pilots get more, are the Eagle Mechs going be happy with their present rate, how about FA's, ground support. The day of the regular pay increase is over at the major's and anyone who thinks otherwise is in a state of denial.

The money is going to come out of the APA/AA contract currently in negotiations. APA will pay for one list out of some part of the contract pie....how much it costs is to be determined and that cost has to be weighed against the benefit to AMR as well as the APA pilots.

 

[captain]

from what it looks to me the only thing that they will do with the payscale is maybe make the Eagle FO payscale top out at 12 years instead of 8. Oh, but you will have a number!

 

[deceptibum]

apa proposal

I just have a question for all the AA pilots with knowledge of the latest "merge" proposal. Have any of you even asked the eagle pilot group about their opinions on it? From all the talk AA pilots give of how it would be so much better for us, I ask you to go out in the airport and listen the eagle pilot opinion. I assure you it differs greatly.