Trouble at AMR

[pilotyip]

Reality

some good posts here, looks like a dose of reality is setting into the process.

 

[deceptibum]

Eagles ALPA hotline 1800-575-ALPA

there is more on the hotline, but this is the only piece pertaining to the union view on the proposal....


This is Dave Ryter with the Chairman’s Hotline for Saturday, December 21st, 2002.



As most of you are already aware, yesterday, the APA proposal to combine the AA and Eagle pilot groups was made available on the internet. This proposal is the APA’s proposal. It is not a negotiated product between your MEC and the APA and, in fact, your MEC is not in agreement with some of the approaches suggested. It is important to remember that the APA’s proposal is a concept and an opening position which they have asked the Company to consider during the next two weeks. As always, in negotiations, an opening position often bears little resemblance to the final product. We expect that during the next two weeks, AMR management will evaluate this proposal and respond to the APA with their concerns and possibly a counterproposal. If there is an indication from AMR management that there is value in continuing a dialogue on this proposal, there will not only be occasion for your MEC negotiators to participate in this process but we will demand a seat at the negotiating table to protect our interests as they apply to our members and our aircraft. The MEC has already received much feedback from you regarding the APA’s position and I urge all pilots who have not already, to read this proposal and provide feedback to their LEC representatives. Your opinions, concerns and questions will provide valuable input to the MEC and the Negotiating Committee. Finally, remember that this is only a proposal, open for consideration by all parties and as such is a starting point. Your MEC will keep you informed as the dialogue continues.

 

[Draginass]

Let the negotiators do their job before you get your panties in a twist. This isn't a two way process . . . it's a THREE way process that makes it even more complicated. AMR isn't going to go for it unless it saves them money and buys some labor peace.

If you want to sabotage it, go ahead and start yelling, lighting-up the torches and getting out the pitchforks.

IMHO, AE ALPA guys have little leverage. Your work is being contracted out as we speak and AMR has you by the short ones with that dumb contract signed in '97. The current "flow-thru" is a farce (there were 2 out of 50 in my class, considerably short of 50%). Only the APA has some leverage with the ASM cap and no furlough clauses . . . and even then, that's not ironclad.

Let the negotiators do their work and let's see what they come up with without giving AMR the impression that there's squabbling.

 

[eaglefly]

YOU are MISTAKEN.

Eagle ALPA DOES have leverage.

We have CONTRACTUAL RIGHTS to the airframes and routes we CURRENTLY fly.

ANY transfer of these operations (current) MUST be in accordance with our Collective Bargaing Agreement (unless out MEC AND the pilot group agree to negotiated changes).

Our contract states clearly that any transfer of operations must include our contract which has a seniority list AND method of filling vacancies.

Neither the APA nor AMR can unilaterally abrogate these provisions in our CBA.

PERIOD.

There is also language regarding mergers with both ALPA and Non-ALPA carriers.

In a nutshell, if no agreement on seniority is reached it goes to arbitration in accordance with the ALLEGHENY-MOHAWK labor protective provisions (the most feared two words at the APA headquarters).

-Seniroity to be determined by a "fair and EQUITABLE manner".
-NO "system flush".
-NO transfer of operations UNTIL seniority has been agreed on.

In any case this is NOT a "one list" proposal. In fact Eagle F/O's dont even GET a mainline seniority number until making "small jet" captain(many,many years)

It is a proposal that would allow APA to (attempt) gain control of ALL of Eagle's aircraft while at the same time offering a "flow-through" to mainline (only SOME of future mainline vacancies) and unilaterally disregarding our contractual rights.

Yes, the APA can ask for the world, but it can't be denied that their first inclination is a proposal that is heinously one-sided and attempts to screw the pilots at Eagle.

The bottom line is that unless the Eagle MEC and the pilots agree, APA will never be succesful in strongarming our current planes and routes.

We are not TWA. We are not in bankruptsy and there is no legal "end run" around our contract a'la TWA.

However, I believe it is all mute. AMR's response on JAN 6, will be a litany of reasons why it is not economically feasible. In fact, Carty will need to cut mainline costs close to United to be competitive. UAL pilots are staring a 29% pay-cut or else scenario.

What this proposal DOES do is show that the APA WILL screw the Eagle pilots as a matter of preferable choice.

How unfortunate (and ultimately unsuccessful).

 

[deceptibum]

I'm not trying to sabotage anything. I'm just pointing out that our pilot group is not too thrilled with what has been presented in front of them. Are we excited about the possibility of a merge? Sure. But this is not a merge. It is basically what we have now, but APA gets the RJs. I'm not against any one person or the APA as a whole. I believe a "merge" is long overdue; however, in essence this proposal is still 2 airlines. By saying we have no leverage, that is also untrue. Not to start any fights, but if you look at the current industry trend, mainline needs the regional more than vice versa.

 

[Celicapilot]

From an internal source of AMR Eagle management a few days ago AA plans to start more furloughs at the rate of 50 per month until the red ink goes. Maybe that's why APA is so eager to get the eagle guys in the list.

 

[eaglefly]

Actually, AMR has only about 400 more furloughs CURRENTLY scheduled through about late spring. Total 1400.

But, Carty will look for BIG givebacks in pay, work rules and SCOPE (compete with UAL). These more efficient work rules will allow more trimming of pilots at mainline. The future for the bottom 1/3 is bleak. The rest of the bottom half will be F/O's at 20-30% LESS for many years.

Ask ANY APA officer where the "baseball arbitration" situation is going when congress starts next month.

He'll confirm "front burner".

Bush. Republican Congress.

Connect the dots.

 

[G4G5]

Originally posted by eaglefly

YOU are MISTAKEN.
Eagle ALPA DOES have leverage.

G4G5
No, you are mistaken, you don't have leverage, otherwise you would have been invited to the table.
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We have CONTRACTUAL RIGHTS to the airframes and routes we CURRENTLY fly.

ANY transfer of these operations (current) MUST be in accordance with our Collective Bargaing Agreement (unless out MEC AND the pilot group agree to negotiated changes).

Our contract states clearly that any transfer of operations must include our contract which has a seniority list AND method of filling vacancies.

Neither the APA nor AMR can unilaterally abrogate these provisions in our CBA.

PERIOD.

G4G5
First off
Routes can be transfered. It happens all the time from Mainline to Eagle. Remember, that was the orignal purpose to have a regional carrier. To feed the mainline AND to build up routes for mainline. Routes can't be sold or transfered to another airline like Comair. AA mainline doesn't count.

Secondly
Do you think that AA wants more then 20 CRJ20's? Yes. Knowing this do yo think that they want an aircraft for the 90-120 pax market? Yes. Knowing this and knowing that the current AA Scope clause gives ALL flying above 75,000# to AA mainline, what do you think will happen to the 20 CRJ70's? I am waiting?
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There is also language regarding mergers with both ALPA and Non-ALPA carriers.

In a nutshell, if no agreement on seniority is reached it goes to arbitration in accordance with the ALLEGHENY-MOHAWK labor protective provisions (the most feared two words at the APA headquarters).

-Seniroity to be determined by a "fair and EQUITABLE manner".
-NO "system flush".
-NO transfer of operations UNTIL seniority has been agreed on.


G4G5
Wrong! Who do you think AMR is selling Eagle to? The APA? Both Eagle and AA mainline are strategic business units of the AMR corporation. AMR owns both Eagle and AA mainline. This is not AA purchasing TWA, nothing like it. This is AMR doing what it wants with it assets. Your argument only holds up if AMR sells Eagle to another airline, that's not happening. Their is no sale, so no Allegheny-Mohawak provisions apply.
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In any case this is NOT a "one list" proposal. In fact Eagle F/O's dont even GET a mainline seniority number until making "small jet" captain(many,many years)

It is a proposal that would allow APA to (attempt) gain control of ALL of Eagle's aircraft while at the same time offering a "flow-through" to mainline (only SOME of future mainline vacancies) and unilaterally disregarding our contractual rights.

Yes, the APA can ask for the world, but it can't be denied that their first inclination is a proposal that is heinously one-sided and attempts to screw the pilots at Eagle.

G4G5
Please be VERY specific on how you are going to get screwed. Use facts. Who other then the APA even has for a flow through, not, DAL, UAL, CAL, or NWA. Humm, and this proposal could even make it better.......
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The bottom line is that unless the Eagle MEC and the pilots agree, APA will never be succesful in strongarming our current planes and routes.

We are not TWA. We are not in bankruptsy and there is no legal "end run" around our contract a'la TWA.

However, I believe it is all mute. AMR's response on JAN 6, will be a litany of reasons why it is not economically feasible. In fact, Carty will need to cut mainline costs close to United to be competitive. UAL pilots are staring a 29% pay-cut or else scenario.

G4G5
Really and you think that the APA will be giving back any money when the Delta pilots are the highest paid? It will be EXTREMLY difficult for Carty to come to the AA pilots and ask for wage concessions when he already has a 20% advantage over Delta. Oh yeah we also make less then NWA too. So unless you are bankrupt, you make more then us. PS we have been operating without a contract or a raise for a year and a half.
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What this proposal DOES do is show that the APA WILL screw the Eagle pilots as a matter of preferable choice.

How unfortunate (and ultimately unsuccessful).

G4G5
I don't see how you are getting screwed but maybe you can tell us. Please keep in mind two simple facts.

One:
Carty has been very clear that he WILL NOT furlough 1000 Eagle pilots in order to recall AA mainline pilots to do the same job.

Two:
The APA has this little thing called Scope. We get anything above 75,000#'s, CRJ90's or the entire ERJ 170/195 fleet. The reason why you are not at the table is because you don't have anything that resembles a scope clause in your contract.

Oh by the way how were you planning on getting a pay raise, (upto Comair) with your contract(when's it come up)? Or eliminate reverse code sharing and get back the STL feed? Or stop the sale of Executive? Or get the company to buy any more CRJ70's(ASM's)?

I'm waiting..............

Knowing Fact one and two to be true. How do the AA mainline pilots benefit from this?

 

[G4G5]

From an internal source of AMR Eagle management a few days ago AA plans to start more furloughs at the rate of 50 per month until the red ink goes. Maybe that's why APA is so eager to get the eagle guys in the list.

G4G5
Currently AA has 929 pilots on furlough

The company has announced 392 pilots additional pilot furloughs for 2003. Of which 90 pilots will be furloughed on January 1.

32 pilots will be furloughed on January 31. Which leaves 280 left to be furloughed at an undisclosed rate. So 50 a month is not unlikely, that takes us into July. Let's hope it stops their.


IMHO the APA is in a rush to get the Eagle pilots on the list for two reasons.

One:
To stop reverse code sharing. From here on in all 392 are former TWA pilots, and approx 600 after that, if it goes that deep. The APA would love to save some of these folks their jobs. How can they do that? Get back all of the flying that Chitaqua(sp) and Trans States are doing out of STL.

The given is that all of the 70 seat and above flying will go to AA mainline. Once AA determines which aircraft it wants to use in the 70-120 seat range. This new deal can set the framework for future aircraft and get these folks flying again. AA needs to do something because they recently announced the acceleration of the retirement of the F100 fleet. The can't operate with just 20-CRJ70's and nothing else between the ERJ145(50 seats) and the MD80(129 seats).

Two;
Stop the sale of Executive. The APA realizes that AMR could eaisly divest itself of Eagle(see DAL and Comair/ASA). If the stock market was better. Carty would have sold 49% of Eagle in an IPO, kept the cash and the 51% controlling interest. But.. in todays economy there is very little market for an reginonal airline IPO. Especially considering that anyone interested can get in the game by providing DIP financing to UAL or U.

 

[MachPi]

G4G5 hit the nail on the head as far as the reasons why APA is gung-ho about combining the lists. It's scope, baby; nothing nefarious about that, just good cya and looking out for the membership.

So much for that. My concern as an ex-mil APA member is this: if the lists are combined, what on earth would possess someone from the military to apply to AA? They'd go directly to Eagle, and a few years later, maybe, make it to ML. In other words, they'd have to spend time in two different 'minor leagues' before making it to the big time. Would ex-mils open themselves up to that?

The answer, of course, is that NO military refugee would apply to AA. Just wouldn't happen. Frankly, I don't want to see that.

I've flown with many civilian-track captains who are very good at what they do. That's beside my point, which is that a mix of civ and ex-mil pilots is good for every major. To be the first major to cut off the ex-mil flow would be a huge mistake.

AA has to have some mechanism to draw ex-mil pilots directly into mainline flying. Otherwise, they will ALL flow elsewhere: to Delta, SWA, NW et al. That would be a colossal error on American's part, and APA (and ALPA) should make sure that doesn't happen.