Trouble at AMR

[100LL... Again!]

MailMan
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With regards to a "one-list" propasal at AA that you guys are discussing; Q:Who will AA hire in the future if the military pilots refuse to start "at the bottom" as well as other regional pilots currently flying for Comair, ASA NW Airlink, etc.?

If a young RJ F/O or Capt at say, Mesaba, can go straight to SWA, UPS or Delta (down the road), they would not consider starting all over at AA. Just at face value the one-list idea won't work when discussing hiring from the bottom up.....
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Is this the long-awaited pilot shortage Kit D. has been promising?


By this time there will be a pile of qualified guys ready to take those AE positions. There willl be plenty of freight dogs and very high time instructors to fill the entry level positions. AA's right seats wil be filled up nicely with AE RJ pilots.

You really think there is going to be no one to hire?

(Please forgive the Kit D. crack - I couldn't help myself)


To G4G5
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To be honest it's not my biggest concern. If you work at a major protecting your own(mainline and commuter) should be. After all these are the folks who are out there day in and day out contributing to the bottom line. Not some guy we may hire in 6 years.
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Amen, Amen, Amen.

Why is this such a rare opinion?

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Hey G4G5...if you know so much about what the majors will be doing when they start hiring AND how competitive military pilots will be THEN why don't you open up your own AIR INC-kit-darby-look-alike? Or maybe you should start giving stock tips too.

Wish I was young and thought I had all the answers too.

Opinions are like sphincters everyone's got one.

 

[Loafman]

Hey G4G5...if you know so much about what the majors will be doing when they start hiring AND how competitive military pilots will be THEN why don't you open up your own AIR INC-kit-darby-look-alike? Or maybe you should start giving stock tips too.

Wish I was young and thought I had all the answers too.

Opinions are like sphincters everyone's got one.

G4G5's points seem pretty plausible to me. I work for AMR too, and those are the numbers when you're talking about the capacity of our training department. Even if UAL goes Tango Uniform, AMR can only train so many pilots a month to expand. As for where the military guys will go, my brother is an 8 year F-15E driver with his number coming up soon. If he has to start in the right seat of an RJ, he has no problem with that. Of course, I put his ego in check when we were kids... You just have to realize that the aviation industry has changed, and we'll all have to adapt or get that coveted job as a Wal-Mart greeter.

 

[Loafman]

Heck, most, if not all of the RJ's flying have nicer cockpits then my MD80.

I just got off the jumpseat of one of your MD80's. How do you guys keep track of all those switches? : )

 

[Loafman]

Dual entry points for military and civilian pilots is a company requirement for combining lists. They aren't stupid. They know that few military pilots would apply to AA if they had to start along side a 500 hour CFI, especially when other majors hired straight into large jets. The company also has a lower failure rate in training with military pilots vs. pure civilian ones.

As far as qualifications go, there's no credible comparison between an entry level commuter pilot who is probably a 500-1000 hour CFI in simple airplanes and a military guy who's probably a 2000 hour instructor pilot in fast/heavy jets, and that's after he/she survived a 30% washout rate at UPT.

Tell me why AA would be at a loss without off-the-street military applicants?

Companies have been succesfully hiring those "500 hour CFIs" as you called them into the right seat of RJ's for quite some time now. I have yet to see one blamed for a fatal hull loss. In fact, I don't even know of a single loss of an RJ by a US carrier. (unless you count the E145 that CoEx balled up in training)

On the OTHER hand, I do beleive that every hull loss in the last 10 years at AA had a military guy on the flight deck.

I'm not trying to start another pissing contest about Civ v. Mil, but I just don't see where the company will go under if we stop attracting military applicants.

 

[justApilot]

I have to agree with G4G5's numbers, they are realistic indeed.

 

[SUPREME NTM]

Again for MachPi,
I don't see what the problem is.
You make it sound as if AMR had to have ex mil flying the silver birds. If Ex Mil don't want to apply to AA because they won't fly an RJ. It is just fine, it is their loss.
If AMR is to hire again and all they have to choose from is freight guys or regional pilots. Guess what AMR is going to do ??
They are going to hire them if they are qualified and pass the interview process.
The only reason that ex mil are getting hired at the majors was that those doing the hiring were also mosltly ex military.
THAT'S IT !!!!!
Not because they are better. AMR doesn't give a hoot about who fly the airplanes, they just want qualified individuals and also they want a diverse representation of all backgrounds.
If it comes to that (the one list) and an RJ is the junior equipment, so be it. It is your personnal choice to make. If you don't like, go some place else !!!

 

[Spur]

Wow Supreme, you got it:

"AMR doesn't give a hoot about who fly the airplanes, they just want qualified individuals and also they want a diverse representation of all backgrounds."

However, that means getting Ex-Mil pilots, too! Which is just what MachPI said! I didn't read anything in his post about military pilots being better... Perhaps youve been getting so worked up over previous thread discussions (Mil vs Civ) that you can't even agree with someone who has the same ideas you do about "diverse representation of all backgrounds" at AA.

I sense some issues here...

 

[SUPREME NTM]

Thank for pointing that out, I didn't even realize that I fundamentally agreed with MachPi, I just don't agree with the delivery.
However I KNOW that you understand what was being implied, there was definetely a underlying statement. And please excuse me for working myself up and by doing so, I am sorry if I upset you. Again I don't having any issue with any exmil being hired anywhere. If I did, I would have quite my job a long time ago.
But yes, I do have other issues, but that is another topic. Let's save it for a(nother) rainy day.
Good luck to all of us.

 

[Muddauber]

Hey Spur - thanks Dad! You are confused because you refuse to acknowledge the military arrogance so pervasive on these forums... At the end of the day, it comes down to hours/flying ability and personality. I am not the only one who spotted it - Supreme did too. I'll bet most Eagle ERJ captains could fly rings around the military pilots in the sims. Can I borrow the car now Dad?

All of the military services spend over a million dollars on flight training qualifying a pilot to earn his wings. How much did you spend on your flight training Yak?

From what I've seen since I joined the civilian sector you buy your qualifications. You write your check- you pass your "check" ride. There's over a 30% washout rate in Air Force Undergraduate Pilot Training among highly qualified candidates because the guy giving you the evaluation doesn't care about anything but you meeting the standards.

By the way, a lot of military pilots have a lot a time doing what you've been doing only they had some very nasty people shooting at them while they were doing it.

 

[SUPREME NTM]

Muddauber,

YOU ARE SO GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Loafman]

All of the military services spend over a million dollars on flight training qualifying a pilot to earn his wings. How much did you spend on your flight training Yak?

From what I've seen since I joined the civilian sector you buy your qualifications. You write your check- you pass your "check" ride. There's over a 30% washout rate in Air Force Undergraduate Pilot Training among highly qualified candidates because the guy giving you the evaluation doesn't care about anything but you meeting the standards.

By the way, a lot of military pilots have a lot a time doing what you've been doing only they had some very nasty people shooting at them while they were doing it.

Yep. The military also buys $25,000 toilet seats. Don't get me started.

 

[English]

(This post is by CaptRob, who was unable to log in under his screenname.)

Do we really want to get into the "Who's training cost more" arguement? Anyone that has worked around government/military procurement knows the government pays far more than it should for everything. If for no other reason, the supplier will charge a premium just for having to comply with the restrictions, requirements and exhaustive proceedures just to sell them a box of "Portable, Hand-held Communications Inscribers." (Read that-#2 pencils)

I borrowed a small fortune to go to the FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach, Florida. I found a wide range of pilots with backgrounds as varied as their abilities. There were great sticks that were delivering pizzas to pay the $300/hr for a Seminole with an instructor and there were the arrogant,"well funded" idiots that couldn't keep a volleyball in the air with a tractor beam. Not to mention everyone in between. It was fun watching the Asiana ab-initro kids trying to taxi for the first time when the most complicated vehicle they had ever operated before arriving in the USA was a bicycle.

The point is, while quality training is very important, you can't force knowledge and even better yet, good judgement into the head of a student unless he/she has the capacity to accept it and use it.

As for the 30% wash out rate in military training, that is the same failure rate the FAA expects to see from it's inspectors and designated examiners. Less than that raises a red flag and inquiries follow.

Then you consider the numbers from this prespective;
Of the total number of student pilots, how many solo?
Of that number, how many actually get their private?
Of that number, how many are IFR?
Of that number, how many are commercial rated?
Of that number, how many are multi-engine rated?
Of that number, how many are CFIs?
Of that number, how many hold an ATP?
Of that number, how many have a type rating?
By the time you pass through all those filters, most, not all, but most are probably pretty good at pointing airborne aluminum tubes around at high speed. This is not intended as a slam on military training. In fact, I have had none so I have no way of commenting on what it entails. But, I know civilian training. And I feel pretty qualified to comment on that.

Monday, January 6 is the date management is supposed to reply to the APA proposal. I think their reply will generate a thread at least as much fun as this one has become.

 

[pilotyip]

Civilian washouts

In the past 5 years we have hired 47 military pilots, 1 failed to complete training. In the same time we have hired 143 non-military pilots, with 11 who failed to complete training. This includes putting Helo pilots in jets with an almost 100% completion our one mil failure was a low time helo guy. This is not saying that mil pilots are better, it just says when you are going to spend money training someone, you have a higher probability of success with the mil. They are pre-screened, they are uniformly disciplined, and they follow orders including ones they don't like. I know, we have not hired very many RJ Captains into our fleet, but the one we did hire did just fine.

 

[G4G5]

All of the military services spend over a million dollars on flight training qualifying a pilot to earn his wings. How much did you spend on your flight training Yak?

From what I've seen since I joined the civilian sector you buy your qualifications. You write your check- you pass your "check" ride. There's over a 30% washout rate in Air Force Undergraduate Pilot Training among highly qualified candidates because the guy giving you the evaluation doesn't care about anything but you meeting the standards.

By the way, a lot of military pilots have a lot a time doing what you've been doing only they had some very nasty people shooting at them while they were doing it.

Hey, Ice man
Is a pound of butter sufficient to get your head through the cockpit door?

Remeber that the title of the thread is, "Trouble at AMR"
Not I think military pilots are the best and civilian pilots stink. What if anything do you think that your post added to the thread?

Grow up, Maverick

 

[CRJ puppy]

I borrowed a small fortune to go to the FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach, Florida. I found a wide range of pilots with backgrounds as varied as their abilities. There were great sticks that were delivering pizzas to pay the $300/hr for a Seminole with an instructor and there were the arrogant,"well funded" idiots that couldn't keep a volleyball in the air with a tractor beam. Not to mention everyone in between. It was fun watching the Asiana ab-initro kids trying to taxi for the first time when the most complicated vehicle they had ever operated before arriving in the USA was a bicycle.

PLease be careful when "flaming" an institution and a people.

The comments about the Asian MEN is uncalled for.

Additionally, while instruction at FSI is expensive, it still is NOT $300/hr for a Seminole.

 

[Loafman]

Mean people suck.

 

[English]

(CaptRob's response again)

1) I was flaming nobody. I didn't say asian men or asian kids, I said Asiana ab-initio kids, meaning Asiana Airlines ab-initio students. The bicycle comment came from one of the Asiana flight instructors, referring to the cultural differences between the US and their country, where these students had never even driven a car before learning to fly an airplane.

2) The Seminole was $250 per hour in 1990. The instructor was $30. I merely added inflation to come up with the $300 an hour figure.

3) Lighten up.

 

[Loafman]

With regards to a "one-list" propasal at AA that you guys are discussing; Q:Who will AA hire in the future if the military pilots refuse to start "at the bottom" as well as other regional pilots currently flying for Comair, ASA NW Airlink, etc.?

If a young RJ F/O or Capt at say, Mesaba, can go straight to SWA, UPS or Delta (down the road), they would not consider starting all over at AA. Just at face value the one-list idea won't work when discussing hiring from the bottom up.....

I think that's why they call SF3 FO an ENTRY level position. I would guess there are a few furloughed guys on here that would take a one list Eagle FO job with mainline career potential over working at Home Depot.

 

[Diesel]

In the fractionals from what I've seen the military pilots have had a greater washout than the civilian pilots. Especially the commuter or corporate guys.

A common response from a comutter pilot is: "You mean we only have 3 leg's today? Oh and there are no MEL's and the AP works?"

A common military response is: "you mean the destination changed again? That's the second time enroute? Do you have any idea where they are going to have us end up?"

It's two different cultures. I take offense that since my check didn't bounce I got my ratings. I worked long and hard to get me where i am today.

Sure the fractionals are different than 121 ops. What i've seen is that civilians are much more willing to change and not everything is set in stone. Flexibility is key.

From what I've seen if mainline wants it eagle is going to get the shaft somehow.