Trouble at AMR

[100LL... Again!]

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If you are good, UPT is easy...
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I think we agree, then.

Sounds like you were one of those good ones.

Civilian training is easy if you are good as well.

The two pilots I'm referring to did seem sharp. They also were very respectful of us civ guys in class. Didn't act like we were a bunch of posers who had paid to pass their checkrides.
Actually asked us for a lot of help to transition to the 121 way of doing things.

My impression was that the original post implied just that.

I hope I am wrong.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Thread hijacke by non-AMR pilots!!!

This thread has been hijacked , mostly by pilots that have never flipped a switch for AMR in any capacity!

Military vs civilian, I won't waste my time. However, as far as the single point entry to the AMR pilot line, a few points: I don't think AMR is concerned about providing an entry level MD80 or B767 seat to anyone that feels they are special due to their unique backgroung or who they think they know. I think that most everyone that has responded to this thread is thinking about hiring practices/needs in todays terms...the RJ. Most airlines are cutting back from the mainline and going RJ. This may not be true in the future, especially when things start to turn around. ASMs are still higher on the RJ. When it is time to bring back the MD80s that are parked and buy new aircraft. The company may want to hire off the street to mainline or lets say larger jets if it is to be one list. This is not to give somone special a bigger jet or to screw the Eagle guys. It's to save training costs or fill vacancies after a bid closes. During the last hiring cycle at AA, there were classes for F/Es and F/O for F100, MD80, B767, and maybe even the A300. It was based on needs of the company and vacancies, not where the applicant learned to fly!

When CAL and CAL EX were hiring and giving one seniority number, pilots were hired to either company, but acquired seniority at CAL. A CAL EX pilot could go to CAL after 9 months in the RJ or be paid a 25% override if he/she stayed on the RJ. When that CAL EX pilot transferred to CAL, it was with all his/her seniority. So even if AMR hires off the street to a bigger jet. that pilot will remain very junior in seat and be on reserve a very long time. Yes, there are pay and retirement benefits to being on the bigger jets. Once hired, people choose their career paths, equipment, bases, etc. for different reasons.

A few observations and clarificatons:

G4G5 had some very valid points and has taken the time to do a little research.

EagleFly has had many well though out responses in the past, but I think his initial response to the One List was mostly emotionsal. I can understand that having worked for AMR at AA, AE, TWA LLC (Furloughed). If I were still flying for Eagle, I would be very cautious. I would negociate the best deal possible, but don't think that ALPA nation will look out for you. They sold out TWA and TWA had councils 1, 3, and 4. TWA was there when ALPA first came to be and was sold down the river. Do you really think that ALPA is going to be looking out for you? ALPA was sending out pledge cards and actively trying to recuit the APA pilots back to ALPA and TWA was the bait. You can say TWA was bankrupt and that you are in a better position, but I wouldn't count on it. AMR told Air Virginia to go bankrupt and then bought them for pennies on the dollar. It is a proven AMR formula.

If you flew for Eagle when there were four seperate carriers, Flagship, Simmons, Wings West, and Executive (my alma mater), there was a lot of friction between the pilots from the different carriers that were co-located at the same base (Us and them). I have spoken to many Eagle pilots about that over the years and they have all said they don't think as AE in those seperate terms any more. One list would solve that problem and take care of SCOPE, etc. The company could deploy their resources more efficiently by putting the right sized airplane on the appropriate route and it might just improve the working environment.

Someone had stated that the TWA LLC furloughees had only been there 2-3 years; that is not correct. To bring in the New Year, AMR started furloughing upto 1996 and the cuts will go much deeper. The junior AA pilot will be displaced to STL under the new base called "SLT". At the time of the merger, AA had a little over 600 pilots on furluogh (probationers). The DOH for the TWA LLC pilots was reshuffled and 208 AA new hires were brought back from furlough and given 1989 equivelant seniority at TWA LLC. That means that our junior Captains that are now flying as F/Os (1989-hire) will be furloughed and replaced by an AA New Hire (Probationer) in SLT (STL). AA is projecting 140 junior AA pilots to be displaced to ST. Louis. This is not an emotional response, just the facts.

So if I were at still at Eagle, I would negociate for no loss of seat, bring back the AE furloughess and get as many mechanisms as possible to hold your seat and flow through to the "small jet (SJ)" and mainline. A number at AA with room to advance in the current and future fleet of RJs and a future slot to bigger A/C, would be an improvement. If you are a senior RJ Captain with an AA number, you won't be moving to mainline anytime soon. If the mechanism for the deal is to add more total aircraft in the form of larger RJs, then the career for AE pilots will improve.

This proposal is in it's infancy. Let's be cautiously optimistic, watch our six, and try to work together.

Let's hope for a better New Year,

Jeff


PS: Not all the furloghees will come back to fly an RJ, some may not come back at all. Some have obtained jobs that they will never leave to come back to AMR. Others will by-pass the RJ or SJ until they can come back to a jet the size they left, etc.

 

[Loafman]

AMR will never allow a system to be put into place that will effectively eliminate any military pilots from coming on board. I know that will disappoint many Eagle guys. I know many military guys would be disappointed if AMR canned a plan to give interviews and seniority numbers to miltary pilots after they upgraded to PIC, but that would have a similiar effect and it would be just as negative.

Anyway, go ahead and blast away with "AMR doesnt need mil pilots", "Protect current AMR (Eagle) pilots", and of course "You all suck!" But the fact is people who know alot more than you or I do have already figured out they need to hire both groups, and they will make sure they get them both.

You got a f#$%ing crystal ball or somethin'? What mountaintop guru you been smokin smack wit?

 

[toneal]

Mean people suck.

Nice people swallow

 

[av8dv8]

Helgy?

C'mon Jeff!

You and I BOTH know that everything
you learned about aviation came from
the mighty DASH!!

Say it aint so BABY!!!



AAhh just funnin'

I'll go back to lurking and learning now.....
from the mighty knowledge meister,

G4


G'day All!

 

[Loafman]

This thread has been hijacked!!

How about we get back on the subject or start a new thread pertaining to this stupid argument.

OK, I started a poll in the "General" section.

 

[eaglefly]

Jeff, I find your comments interesting but unfortunetly predictable. I see your a "mainline" pilot (I can understand your worry as a junior mainline pilot). You've read several posts here and declare G4G5's comments (a fellow mainline pilot) to be "valid" and a result of "research". Mine (an Eagle pilot) are just "emotional".

I see a great deal of "emotion" in G4G5 (a lot of fear too). He comes across as an AA pilot who is not used to "waiting" for anything or anyone to meet his needs.

Jeff, your (and G4G5's) observations are from the perspective of a "mainline" pilot. Mine is from the OVERWHELMING majority of Eagle pilots.

Our MEC disagrees with several of the proposals in the APA's CURRENT conceptual proposal.

Fact : ALPA National does not need to "look out for us". It is our MEC and our pilot group that will agree or not to give up our contractual rights to our CURRENT aircraft and routes. We are not inbankruptcy and our contractual rights regarding transfer of assets cannot be unilaterally abrogated by APA or AMR, therefore we have the contractual right to participate in any discussions that directly affect our current operations. For ALPA National to jeoprdize a group they already have a feduciary duty to fairly represent in an effort to attract a seperate pilot group would be a violation of that feduciary duty and would put ALPA Nationals tit in a legal ringer. Again, unlike the U/J4J situation, we have contractual language protecting our current operations.

It is interesting to note some of those stipulations in the APA's initial proposal :

1.) "Commuter" pilots excluded from development of proposal and subsequent discussions with managment.

2.) "mainline" pilots UNILATERALLY determine distribution of aircraft and flying.

3.) "Mainline" pilots given special seniority and bidding rights at "commuter" division.

4.) Only LIMITED number of "commuter" pilots permitted to bid mainline positions at an undetermined future date.

Does this look familiar to anyone ?

Looks like J4J in a slightly prettier dress.

Jeff, it seems as though you're saying i.e., "be good little boys and take what you're given by the APA and maybe in 5-8 years we'll throw you a bone".

Ahhh, thanks but no thanks.

Thankfully, if we did not have those protective provisions in our contract, the APA could attempt to just take our operations and to hell with us.

When the APA proposes a true "one list" scenario, we'll be there too.

But to expect us to just hand over our CURRENT flying and draw a line thru our contractual protections for the APA's promise of a "maybe, kinda, we'll see" future is ludicrous.

But what do I know ?

I guess I need to do more "research" so I can make some "valid" points and stop being an "emotional" commuter pilot.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Eaglefly, you misunderstood and misread

Eaglefly

You have totally misconstrued my meaning and misjudged me. I respect many of your previous opinions, but the One List is an emotional response. NO, I am not saying be good little boys and I am not a mainline APA boy trying to screw Eagle. I was furloughed from TWA LLC, before that I flew for AE at Executive and before that I was an F/A for AA on international. I went on strike at AA in 1993, I was threatend with furlough from AE, that they were closing the MIA base to give the flying to another Eagle- dog and pony scare tactics, etc. In fact, my Captain bid evaporated and they offered to let be start over at Simmons, on probation again at the bottom of the senority list and this time at first year pay. I said no thanks and went to PDT for a pay raise to start and then went to TWA.

My thoughts were meant more as warning to AE pilots and to keep an open mind and to consider all options objectively before rejecting a proposal that hasn't even been fully proposed, yet.

Since Eagle has become One carieer instead of four, the competive conflicts of bases and flying among the Eagles has gone away. That is an improvement in working conditions and the ability to deal with the company. No more divide and conquer a la AMR. In addition, the operation under one certificate has become more efficient for AMR. A win/win.

The American connection has been eroding the AE flying. Fourteen AE RJs have already been transferred to TSA and are not being flown by AE pilots. What has ALPA done to protect your flying from being farmed out? What will keep AMR from giving more flying to the connections? Oh, you have contract? Well, it hasn't helped you much so far!

Executive was almost sold as another way to circumvent SCOPE, etc. Ask any wholly-owned commuter from another carrier (PDT, ALG, PSA) how their flying has been eroded by contract carriers.

You are correct that it is up to your MEC and LEC to represent you, but don't count and much help from ALPA National. Your MEC signed an inferior 16-year contract, for a flow-through carrot that hasn't worked very well for most.

If every AE pilot could get a number with their DOH and have mechanisms to flow through. gaurantees of A/C acquisitions for growth to allow advancement, etc., then it would be an improvement. Would it not? If the One List could keep AMR from farming out the flying to the "Connection", would that improve your working conditions? If this new agreement would allow you to fly a bigger RJ that paid more than any A/C that Eagle flies, would that be an improvement?

I am not saying be a good little boy, I am saying put on a flak jacket, fill some sand bags and consider all the options without the emotion. If you make decisions to prove a point, you will most likely get steam rolled by APA and AMR. I sent you a PM a couple of months ago to share some insider trading, but you never responded. I sincerely hope you never have to pull gear for me. I would rather see us grow and hire someone off the street to pull the gear for you! (Maybe someone with a Commercial multiengine conversion with a centerline thrust restiction!...sorry Spur I couldn't resist.)

I wish you and all of us the best of luck. Again, I am not your enemy. For the record, I have never locked my kitbag and I always leave it at the domicile and Nobody has ever put any rubber dog sh!t in it yet. Feel free to be the first, but I won't take it personally. I have been around the AMR block a few too many times for that. I will consider it a sign of effection and that it is nature running it's course.

XXOO

Jeff

 

[eaglefly]

Jeff, You're hopelessly coupled to the cross-hairs of the "mainline view" (understandable since that is your situation) . Please for a moment disengage and hand-fly what I've been trying to explain.

-Eagle pilots ARE interested in a "one list" scenario. When one is proposed, we'll be happy to join in.

-Thank you for your past history and explanation of the airline I've been working at for 16 years.

- Thank you (I think) for your "warning". Our pilot group will take it under advisement.

- Your lack of understanding of our "inferior" 16-year agreement is evident. The transfer of the 14 145's to TSA is under grievance, but this is a "murky" area as American Eagle has never served STL. Our current route/aircraft combination is much clearer and would require complete disregard for our contractual language.

-As a former TWA pilot, I suggest you review the ALPA constitution and bylaws. National is there to provide assistance to our MEC and cannot impede us. Is AA ALPA yet ? Until you are, this is not a potential obstacle to us.

-No emotion here. Strictly business. We'll use all means to act in our best interest. You seem perplexed that we're not acting in your best interest. When a proposal comes forward that provides acceptable benefits and protections to both sides, again we'll be there.

- You don't want me to pull gear for you ? I'm already on the AA mainline list with almost 3000 pilots junior to me yourself included, unless you were hired at TWA before '89. (ironically, had you chose to come to Simmons in '93, you would have been pulling gear for me). It'll be many years before I see AA property (I should have been finishing my first year there now) but we probably won't have the opportunity to fly together.

I know you're not "my" enemy (I'm not your enemy). Most Eagle pilots WANT to believe that the AA pilot group is not "our" enemy. But, several things need to be understood by the APA leadership.

1.) The stipulations in the current "proposal" will not fly with our MEC or pilot group.

2.) For a "one list" concept to work, it will REQUIRE the agreement and cooperation of BOTH our governing bodies and pilot groups.

3.) Any attempt at "strong-arming" a'la the TWA bankruptcy takeover is doomed.

Personally, I don't see how the mainline operation of RJ's is going to give Carty the 1 to 2 Billion in ANNUAL savings that he is demanding from mainline labor.

Lets agree to disagree and wait for the other shoe to drop.....

AMR's response.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Eaglefly

First, I think we agree on more than you think. "Coupled to the cross hairs"? I don't think so, I haven't used cross hairs since the Dash 8; I'm mostly a V-bars kind of guy, but I am flexible and love to travel.....and did I mention I am a real people person?!!

I never said I understood your 16-year contract, but many in the industry think it is inferior to other commuters. From what little I know of it, it seems to benefit the more senior AE pilots in regard to a flow-through and as you stated you have your AA number and are still stuck at Eagle after 16 years. I would like to hear from other commuter pilots as to who would like to trade contracts with you. Comair, ASA, ACA, PDT, ALG, SkyWest, Mesaba, etc. Maybe I can't see the value of your industry-leading contract through my mainline-tinted glasses. Would any of them want to trade? Has your contractual mechanism for raises linked to other commuters in the industry as interpreted by AMR and fought for by your ALPA MEC worked the way it was intended?

My main points:

-One list with the proper details could and should benefit all the pilots and AMR.

-If AMR grows in size in the form of small jets (SJs), that could bring ALL furloughees back and represent growth. Growth that could translate into bigger airplanes at a future date when things get back on track. It would allow you to fly a bigger jet in the form of an SJ and move to the mainline quicker. It all depends on the ageement. (Good luck, and I hope ALPA fights as hard as you think they will. Maybe your position is much stronger than I know, or maybe ALPA is printing up pledge cards to send all of the APA members.)

-With 16 years with AE and an AA number to your name with the current agreement, how many more years do you think will pass before you move to the mainline? Your number may be more senior to me at present, but I will be recalled with all the other TWA LLC and AA furloughees before you move to mainline with all the associated benefits and retirement. How old will you be then?

-As far as your APA pilot comment, I have worked for four seperate ALPA carriers for a number of years and have only been apart of the APA for about a year, unless you count my year of apprentice at Executive. Hell, Kit Darby charged me $155 at the DC job fair as appossed to the $99 for the furloughed ALPA pilots. What's one more kick while I am down, anyway?!!!

Eagle as one group funtions better and is more efficient. The One List has that potential.

The $64K question is who will fly the "small jets". It would appear from your posts that you may think they will be painted in AE colors, but the AE jets that hold 50 seats are flying with 44 seats aboard, Executive was almost sold due to SCOPE and the "Connection" is still flying for AMR.

G4G5 made the point that AE is owned by AMR and not subject to Mohawk/Allegehny. It is not a merger per se.

My point is every merger is different and you can't count on everything you think you have in the way of protection. Take it for what it is worth. I am on my back with feet in the air saying the "the sky is falling". I was just trying to give you and your fellow AE pals a friendly warning, but we all must decide how we will hold up our own piece of sky.

Until we see more details, I will keep an open mind and hope and fight for the best for all of us. Until then, "autopilot engage, I'm stepping back for physiological needs!"

Peace

 

[G4G5]

Eagle
I see a great deal of "emotion" in G4G5 (a lot of fear too). He comes across as an AA pilot who is not used to "waiting" for anything or anyone to meet his needs.

G4G5
Take a look at my type ratings, can you name 3 better to have on the back of your ticket, if you were looking for a job? Sorry to break it to you, their is no fear here, just a realistic honest opnion. Not much emotion or waiting for my needs to be met(where did you come up with that one?)
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Eagle
Jeff, your (and G4G5's) observations are from the perspective of a "mainline" pilot. Mine is from the OVERWHELMING majority of Eagle pilots.

Our MEC disagrees with several of the proposals in the APA's CURRENT conceptual proposal.

Fact : ALPA National does not need to "look out for us". It is our MEC and our pilot group that will agree or not to give up our contractual rights to our CURRENT aircraft and routes.

G4G5
Enough of this talk, please state EXACTLY where it is written that you have contractual rights to routes controled by AMR? Where is is written that routes can not be transfered by AMR from it's Eagle unit to it's AA mainline unit? Fact you have no control over routes that are owned by the AMR corporation.
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Eagle
We are not inbankruptcy and our contractual rights regarding transfer of assets cannot be unilaterally abrogated by APA or AMR, therefore we have the contractual right to participate in any discussions that directly affect our current operations. For ALPA National to jeoprdize a group they already have a feduciary duty to fairly represent in an effort to attract a seperate pilot group would be a violation of that feduciary duty and would put ALPA Nationals tit in a legal ringer. Again, unlike the U/J4J situation, we have contractual language protecting our current operations.

G4G5
What are you talking about? What's bankruptcy got to do with it? How would it be possible for Eagle to go bankrupt? The last time I checked Eagle was not a publicly traded company, nor was American Airlines. Funny thing, AMR is.

What does U/J4J have to do with it? U does not own J4J. AMR owns Eagle and AMR owns AA mainline. Just by the virtue of the fact that you brought up the TWA/AA merger and Alegheny Mohawk it clear that you don't understand this. Which surprises me, if a 16 year Eagle senior captain whose opnion is the"OVERWHELMING majority of Eagle pilots"does not get it, how can I expect a jr FO to understand it.

You need to get your facts straight. You contract protection issues that you hide behind are only relevant when dealing with another airline. AA mainline is not another airline with resepct to Eagle contract. Eagle is a strategic business unit of the AMR corporation. As such Carty is free to do with it as he pleases as long as he abides by the contract. Your contract has NO protection clauses when it comes to transfering routes to AA mainline. Nor do you have a Scope clause protecting you form a transfer of aircraft to AA mainline. Get this straight. This is not emotion, opnion, "waiting" or fear, this is a fact.
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Eaglefly
It is interesting to note some of those stipulations in the APA's initial proposal :

1.) "Commuter" pilots excluded from development of proposal and subsequent discussions with managment.

G4G5
This is because AA mgt does not need to get Eagle involved. You don't have a Scope clause that restrict ASM growth, that forces the sale of Executive, that limits the number of 70 seat RJ's. That has any restriction on 75,000# flying. If Eagle's opnion was of ANY legal concern to AA mgt then you would have a seat at the table. What does not being invited to the table tell you?
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2.) "mainline" pilots UNILATERALLY determine distribution of aircraft and flying.

G4G5
We have a Scope clause that restrict the number of 70 seat RJ's based upon Eagle ASM's. We also control any thing over 75,000#'s. That's why we are in a position to "UNILATERALLY determine distribution of aircraft and flying". This is a fact of our contract(no emotion, just business)
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3.) "Mainline" pilots given special seniority and bidding rights at "commuter" division.

G4G5
That's because we control the future of the CRJ70. So if Eagle wants to operate more, AA mgt needs to negotiate Scope relief with the APA. When in all reality the ERJ170/195 is the aircraft of the future all of this flying will go to the APA. The mainline pilots are in a position to control Eagle's growth with their Scope clause. It's not the other way around, that is the reason for the special seniority and bidding rights at "commuter" division.
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4.) Only LIMITED number of "commuter" pilots permitted to bid mainline positions at an undetermined future date.

G4G5
This is AA mgt. They are concerned about the future training costs. Why would any AA pilot care where the number behind him came from?
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Eagle
Does this look familiar to anyone ?

Looks like J4J in a slightly prettier dress.

G4G5
J4J is not relevant, nor is the Delta, ASA/Comair or the NWA/Mesaba arrangement.
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Jeff, it seems as though you're saying i.e., "be good little boys and take what you're given by the APA and maybe in 5-8 years we'll throw you a bone".

Ahhh, thanks but no thanks.

G4G5
Ahhh, what choice do you have? With your contact, how are you planning on stoping the reverse code sharing loss of jobs in STL? Or the sale of Executive in SJU? Improve the flow through into mainline? Get pay raises prior to the end of your current contract? Get any of the future RJ70/90 flying? What we are offering is hardly what I would call a bone but if you can answer the above questions without the help of the APA, I would truly be amazed. I am waiting(get it, if not re-read the first paragraph)?
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Eaglefly
Thankfully, if we did not have those protective provisions in our contract, the APA could attempt to just take our operations and to hell with us.

G4G5
What provisions? Please feel free to list specific sections of your contract that protect you from AA mainline. Try to remember why AA mgt has Eagle. To feed, supply mainline and to grow routes for mainline. You will not find any Eagle contract provisions restricting this. If the AMR corporation determines that a particular route would be better served (more profitable with an MD80 vs an RJ70)then it is within their power to transfer the route to AA mainline. If the APA owns ALL flying above 75,000# then any transfer of a 50 seat RJ route to an ERJ170 or a CRJ90 would go to AA mainline. So again, what provisions do you have?
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Eagle fly
When the APA proposes a true "one list" scenario, we'll be there too.

G4G5
The APA is meeting with AA mgt all week. Is the Eagle MEC there?
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But to expect us to just hand over our CURRENT flying and draw a line thru our contractual protections for the APA's promise of a "maybe, kinda, we'll see" future is ludicrous.

But what do I know ?

G4G5
Again the comments about your contract show that you need to talk to a contract administrator about what AMR can and can't do with Eagle. This is not AMR transfering routes to ASA, this is very similar to DAL mgt transfering flying from Delta to ASA/Comair(Delta, Comair and ASA are all strategic business units of the DAL corporation).
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Eagle
I guess I need to do more "research" so I can make some "valid" points and stop being an "emotional" commuter pilot.

G4G5
Nothing more to add, no wise cracks or emotion. Just facts. Please.

 

[Loafman]

Just about every mainline pilot I've talked to since this all came about was extremely doubtful it would ever come to pass. They even apologized for the outright slap in the face to the Eagle pilot group. It seems that G4G5 thinks we all owe him our first born for this wonderful fu#%ing proposal. Well I've got a proposal for ya. As hungry as AMR management is for cost savings, I'll draw up a proposal that has us flying every mainline jet for a fraction of what you arrogant a$$es get for it. I was all about APA protecting my potential career with mainline, but if that's the attitude they're taking, screw em. Spin us off with Executive and reverse code share our a$$es off. I'll get some "RJ" stickers for the 777. It seems "regional" is a pretty loose term these days anyway.

 

[Loafman]

G4G5
That's because we control the future of the CRJ70. So if Eagle wants to operate more, AA mgt needs to negotiate Scope relief with the APA. When in all reality the ERJ170/195 is the aircraft of the future all of this flying will go to the APA. The mainline pilots are in a position to control Eagle's growth with their Scope clause. It's not the other way around, that is the reason for the special seniority and bidding rights at "commuter" division.

This is possibly the stupidest thing I've read yet. The "regional jet" - (I can't see GSO-DFW-BOI in one day as 'regional') will never pay off with it's higher than 737/MD80 seat mile costs with mainline salaries at the helm. There is absolutely no reason mainline pilots deserve any bidding rights at Eagle, unless you are a pilot eligible to flow back. I hear eternal reserve is nice if you're a flow-back, but if the rest of you want to fly the 700, fill out an application. Management has found loophole after loophole in your scope language and APA stepped on it's dick with the sick out a few years back. They no longer carry as much clout as they used to, and with McCain Lott looming around the corner, this whole discussion will be a moot point. If AMR is to survive in this industry, it has to deploy RJs to compete with DAL/DCI, and a leaner, meaner UAL and it's feeder structure.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Rodney King Medeiation!

Can't we all just get along?!

These last few posts are a testment to why I think a One List would bring more harmony (if possible) to the AMR pilot group as a whole. It worked for Eagle when the list became one. The issues of which Eagle carrier would do the flying disappeared, etc.

The assumption of the AE pilots is that the SJ flying will go to Eagle and that any SCOPE will disappear, that Eagle has all the power. At present that is far from true, but let's assume that happens and discuss how that will help your situation (Eaglefly and Loafman, and others AE pilots).

Say the SJs arrive at AE and you get to fly them. Will that help pilots like Eaglefly with 16 years to make it to mainline any sooner? What will the pay be like? Maybe like the ATR 42 VS. the ATR 72, you could make a whole $5 more per hour when you fly it. That industry leading-16-year contract is really kicking in!

The SJ pay should be somewhere between the current RJ and the F100. Wouldn't you like to make a better wage that mirrored your counterparts that fly similar sized equipment or better? Do you think you can do it all on your own with AMR better? Just a few thoughts.

We don't know how the proposal will work out if it will at all, but it is worth taking a look at with an open mind.

If I were still at AE I would be more concerned about getting less restrictive mechanisms for flow through and upgrade, more flexibility. I would illiminate the need to upgrade to RJ or SJ Captain to flow through to mainline for one. With the industry stagnating, the seniority lists will get more senior. An ATR Captain or senior RJ/SJ First Officer should be able to move to the MD80 if he/she had the seniority to do so. Seniority does not always mean someone moves to the biggest equipment. It's a personal choice size vs. quality of life; we should have the ability to choose.....Did I just say size doesn't matter?....I digress.

Nobody has all the answers and we haven't even seen the whole proposal. It sounds like everyone thinks they have the bomb and the reality is no one does. The industry is changing and it will take cohesion among all of the pilot groups and AMR to make this work and I am not just talking about the One List. It's about survival, being competitve in this environment while trying to protect our rice bowl and maintain quality of life.

G4G5 if you would loan me those type ratings or trade them for my HS-125, I could have had a primo job 2 months ago and walk away from all this BS. That would leave another bone at the table for our AE pals. My experience is there is definately a bone coming and it is definately not for the table (dualing banjoos in the background!)

(fade out)

 

[Loafman]

There's a bone coming, alright. And it's pecker shaped.