Trouble at AMR

[Draginass]

Concur with G4G5.

AE ALPA put the handcuffs on themselves when they signed that sweetheart contract in '97.

The real negotiations are between AA and APA, with AE being a side show (at least for now). Until the main point are worked out between the two primary players, AE ALPA isn't in a position to dictate anything to anybody.

However, I believe it is all mute. AMR's response on JAN 6, will be a litany of reasons why it is not economically feasible. In fact, Carty will need to cut mainline costs close to United to be competitive. UAL pilots are staring a 29% pay-cut or else scenario.

Hmmm. . . . Without seeing the exact figures, I think that pay-cut will put them about par with APA's CURRENT greenbook rates.

 

[SUPREME NTM]

G4G5, I agree with you 100%
MachPi, not so much with you and I don't like what you are implying !!!

Happy Holidays.

 

[Lumber Yak]

Macphi,

Just because you drop bombs from 40,000 feet or serve as an air-to-air gas station doesn't necessarily make you a better pilot. I'd say that a commuter pilot (ERJ or CRJ) or a corporate/fractional pilot with plenty of glass time and at least 2000+ hours on the line prepares you better for the rigors (or lack thereof) of hub-to-hub flying... You don't have to know how to fly formation in the airlines...

If military refugees want stability - they should apply to Southwest or UPS...

I agree with Supreme, your attitude is a bit cocky! Let me guess, your name is Val and your nickname was "Iceman"...

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

I don't understand why AMR or AAL or the union would go for one list.

If you are competitive for a job at AAL you should apply there. People at the commuters/regionals usually aren't, otherwise they would be there.

You don't need one list, you need to apply for a job at the majors. When I interviewed and was offered a job at Eagle the competitive mins were a joke. I could have met them as a kid with a year in the industry. So why should that qualify me for AAL?

And if AMR wants to hire a military pilot, who are you or anybody to tell them different?

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT start your own airline and run it the way you think will be most profitable.

This poor me, I'm entitled to a job, WHAAAAA....life isn't fair crap is getting old.

If you don't like your job, quit!! Go someplace else, do something else.

No one owes you @!#$!!!!

It's the guys who start companies that make America great, not the whinny union pukes.

The only union I've seen that doesn't seem hell bent on destroying its company is the one at SWA.

So good luck to you and why don't you start working on something you can control, like your resume and qualifications. Instead of whining about stuff you can't control, like unions, corporate america, and HR departments.


(And I know I can't spell so no point in brining it up.)

 

[Spur]

Incoming!!!

Here we go again...

MachPi - Totally agree

Supreme - What do you think MachPi is implying

Yak - I think you need to reread MachPi's post... slowly this time... look up the words you dont understand... Then apologize.

 

[SF3CA]

"AA has to have some mechanism to draw ex-mil pilots directly into mainline flying. Otherwise, they will ALL flow elsewhere: to Delta, SWA, NW et al. That would be a colossal error on American's part, and APA (and ALPA) should make sure that doesn't happen."

You are correct that it would be a colossal error on American's part if they were the only airline that combined the list.

This is were ALPA National has really dropped the ball. ALPA national needs encourage/demand that ALL airlines develop one list that does that brand of flying. The only people that are loosing are the employees when 5 different airlines compete to provide the services to a customer when he calls that airlines 1-800 number.

IF all employees at all airlines would put pressure/negotiate to make it one company that provides airline service to the customer, then all employees would benifit in job security. All employees (regardless of background) would start at the bottom and work their way up. Then there would be no difference to the new hire except pay scale and job security at each airline. The airline would have to compete (i.e. offer more pay, benefits, and job security) if they wanted to attract the most qualified pilots.

I realize ........Fat chance on ALPA ever encouraging this!


SF3CA

 

[trainerjet]

This is were ALPA National has really dropped the ball. ALPA national needs encourage/demand that ALL airlines develop one list that does that brand of flying.

Unfortunately, there is one major flaw in your utopian scenario. "ALPA National" doesn't represent ALL airlines, and therefore cannot possibly demand this "one list".

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

Sometimes I think that most of us fail to understand that the APA is charged with securing the most favorable conditions for their own constituents. To do anything else would be a dereliction of their responsibilities to their own membership. Therefore, why should the APA be concerned with how this proposal might affect pilots on another seniority list represented by another union? They shouldn't be.

That said, however, make no mistake - this proposal, as written, is not a good one for Eagle pilots - contrary to what some of my mainline compatriots may think. This proposal, while labeled "It's time, One airline" is NOT a proposal for one airline. It is a proposal that maintains two airlines on the AMR property flown by pilots on one pseudo-list. I say pseudo-list because, while we may all have the same AA badges, and may all be on the same seniority list, in effect we will still be operating on two separate lists; and as proposed, pilots on the "mainline" side of the list will have disproportionate "rights" relative to their Eagle brethren on the same "list".

Here are some bullets I pulled right out of the proposal:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• AA pilots on furlough would have access to all small jet
vacancies in the commuter supplement and commuter supplement
pilots could not access mainline vacancies until all furloughees
are recalled to the mainline.
• Commuter supplement pilots would gain the right to exercise
mainline seniority numbers when they upgrade to Captain.
• Company could hire into either commuter supplement or mainline
vacancies.
• Commuter supplement pilots would have access to mainline at
some agreed to ratio (specific number not determined). Assumes no
mainline pilot is furloughed.
• Mainline pilots would have the option of accepting a
displacement to the commuter supplement or a furlough in a down
cycle.
• Mainline pilots could only displace into commuter supplement
Captain positions. Only pilots displaced from commuter supplement
bid statuses would have recall rights into the commuter
supplement (except all current furloughees could recall into the
commuter supplement).
• Commuter supplement pilots cannot displace into mainline bid
statuses unless they had previously held any mainline bid status.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The first bullet I agree with. I have no problem with that one as long as it applies only to the current batch of furloughees and any that may follow as a direct result of THIS downturn in the industry, not future downturns.

The third bullet, the "Company could hire into either commuter supplement or mainline", I have a problem with when some of the other bullet points are considered along with it. When one begins to think of some very plausible scenarios playing out, one sees that an interesting situation can develop. Let me illustrate: two pilots are hired by AMR at some future date. They are hired on the same day and are given consecutive AA seniority numbers - let’s just say # 14,000 and # 14,001 for discussion's sake. For whatever reason, pilot number 14,001 is sent to mainline and pilot number 14,000 is sent to the Commuter Supplement (as if a 1,300 nm range, mach .78, 50 pax small jet is a "commuter". But that's for a different discussion). Pilot number 14,001 immediately begins to enjoy all of the negotiated benefits of his mainline contract, including the superior pay, benefits and upward mobility associated with being able to bid various bases and equipment as seniority dictates. Meanwhile, pilot number 14,000 begins enjoying the benefits of his regional contract (albeit Comair's rates plus some premium), including the lower pay and more difficult working conditions, not to mention not being able to move on up to better paying larger equipment (there is no larger equipment).

Our pilot with AA seniority # 14,000 working at the Commuter Supplement will more than likely also spend many years at the commuter supplement, initially as a first officer and later as a captain. Only then would he "gain the right to exercise
(his) mainline seniority number when (he) upgrade(s) to Captain." However, once he qualifies as a captain, it will take him quite some time to make the transition over to the mainline - probably a few years - because "Commuter supplement pilots would have access to mainline at some agreed to ratio (specific number not determined)." What ratio would that be? One new pilot off the street directly into mainline for one transitioning "Commuter Supplement" pilot? Two for one? Three for one? Ten for one? It could be any ratio. Therefore, AA mainline would need to be actively hiring in order for Commuter Supplement captains to make the transition to mainline. The net effect to all of this will be very slow movement upward at the Commuter Supplement, leaving many pilots waiting years to qualify as captain and more years to transition over, all the while new pilots being hired off the street years later will be walking right into Mainline positions and enjoying the Mainline’s benefits.

It seems to be true, however that the proposal would allow the transitioning Commuter Supplement pilot to exercise his overall seniority once he arrives at the Mainline, but how many years of pay, benefits, and superior work rules would he have lost out on while awaiting his opportunity to transition over?

The good news continues if one reads the proposal further and considers some very possible scenarios. To quote, "Mainline pilots would have the option of accepting a displacement to the commuter supplement or a furlough in a down cycle." Let's look at this provision. Let's say that our intrepid pilot number 14,000, the Commuter Supplement pilot, has been working at the Commuter Supplement for a few years now and is fairly close to that elusive upgrade to captain. Meanwhile, many pilots, probably over a thousand, have been hired at the Mainline during that time, supposedly with seniority numbers junior to his, although he cannot yet exercise his number until he arrives at the Mainline. Eventually, the inevitable downturn hits the industry and furloughs begin. Guess where the furloughees - who are all probably junior to our intrepid Commuter Supplement pilot - are going to go. They are going to go to the Commuter Supplement as quoted above. However, these furloughed Mainline pilots, who, you will remember, are mostly junior to our Commuter Supplement pilot who is awaiting an upgrade to captain, will only furlough into Commuter Supplement CAPTAIN positions as per this next bullet point which I will quote: "Mainline pilots could only displace into commuter supplement Captain positions."

So here we will have a situation whereby a senior pilot with an AA number who has not yet been allowed to exercise his number will be stuck in the first officer's position at the Commuter Supplement while a much more junior pilot with an AA number who was hired directly into the mainline possibly years later will be flying as a captain, with all of the pay and benefits associated with that seat.

Additionally, when recalls finally happen, maybe years later, guess who gets recalled first. The more junior pilot who happens to be a Mainline furloughee - not the more senior pilot who happened to end up at the Commuter Supplement. Here is the quote: "...and commuter supplement pilots could not access mainline vacancies until all furloughees are recalled to the mainline." So our Commuter Supplement pilot, who has by now spent years in the right seat of a small jet, would still not be able to exercise his seniority.

So this proposal is NOT, in fact a "One Airline" proposal as the title of the letter sent to AA pilots states. It maintains the concept of two airlines and two workgroups working under one corporation. The proposal returns all flying on behalf of AMR to the APA house, as it should, but it does not create one seniority list (or one that is worthy of being called a single seniority list). This is because the provisions of the proposal are weighted heavily in favor of pilots, present and future, at the mainline as opposed to the pilots at the Commuter Supplement.

I have spoken with literally dozens of AA pilots in the past few months who've said to me, without me saying a word to prime them, that we, the pilots of AE and AA should form one list and that all pilots hired in the future should be placed on the BOTTOM of that list. This is what a true seniority list is. The brotherly attitude from the AA pilots has been very refreshing of late, so it has come as a great disappointment, and maybe a slight surprise to many of us that APA would put forth a proposal which is so heavily weighted to one side. This proposal does not give many of us, the Eagle pilots, the feeling of UNITY that APA seems to be so publicly espousing with it's flashy billboards.

 

[jetexas]

One of the main arguments I've heard in the past is that the miitary guys don't want to have guys fly a Saab/ATR/etc... at the regionals upon discharge. They want to go straight to the majors and have their buddies move right on in for numerous reasons, skipping the regionals. The low pay on the regional side is not comensurate with a military pilots livelihood after making 80 grand for uncle sam so no one wants to suffer financially after working for the gov't. I can understand that though do not sympathize since I have yet to make even 30K in one year. I have been at Eagle for 4 years and have been flying for 9 years. (I did my best to fly for uncle sam as a pilot but such is life)
The Turboprops are leaving and will be gone soon. Some regionals are already all regional jet. Nobody is gonna have to fly a Turboprop upon entering a large airline conglomerate.
I can see very little reason to have a "two list/one list" like the APA proposal suggests.
One of two things will happen. The regionals will bring down the majors or the majors can bring up the regionals to some sort of parity of pay scale, benefitting all. The only way to have an outcome that is positive for both sides is to go one list, and fairly.
Sacrificing a few years at the "regionals" by all, including the ex-military to move up to the mainline large jets on a "one list" all the way would benefit all pilots in the long run. Instead, what we have now are regionals taking away routes and volume from majors with management playing each against the other.

 

[toneal]

In other news, did anyone see the new billboard they put up just south of DFW airport? It says "Unity"