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Trouble at AMR
- Thread starter eaglefly
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English
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(CaptRob's response again)
1) I was flaming nobody. I didn't say asian men or asian kids, I said Asiana ab-initio kids, meaning Asiana Airlines ab-initio students. The bicycle comment came from one of the Asiana flight instructors, referring to the cultural differences between the US and their country, where these students had never even driven a car before learning to fly an airplane.
2) The Seminole was $250 per hour in 1990. The instructor was $30. I merely added inflation to come up with the $300 an hour figure.
3) Lighten up.
1) I was flaming nobody. I didn't say asian men or asian kids, I said Asiana ab-initio kids, meaning Asiana Airlines ab-initio students. The bicycle comment came from one of the Asiana flight instructors, referring to the cultural differences between the US and their country, where these students had never even driven a car before learning to fly an airplane.
2) The Seminole was $250 per hour in 1990. The instructor was $30. I merely added inflation to come up with the $300 an hour figure.
3) Lighten up.
Loafman
Beer Consumption Entity
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Diesel
TEB Hilton resident
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In the fractionals from what I've seen the military pilots have had a greater washout than the civilian pilots. Especially the commuter or corporate guys.
A common response from a comutter pilot is: "You mean we only have 3 leg's today? Oh and there are no MEL's and the AP works?"
A common military response is: "you mean the destination changed again? That's the second time enroute? Do you have any idea where they are going to have us end up?"
It's two different cultures. I take offense that since my check didn't bounce I got my ratings. I worked long and hard to get me where i am today.
Sure the fractionals are different than 121 ops. What i've seen is that civilians are much more willing to change and not everything is set in stone. Flexibility is key.
From what I've seen if mainline wants it eagle is going to get the shaft somehow.
A common response from a comutter pilot is: "You mean we only have 3 leg's today? Oh and there are no MEL's and the AP works?"
A common military response is: "you mean the destination changed again? That's the second time enroute? Do you have any idea where they are going to have us end up?"
It's two different cultures. I take offense that since my check didn't bounce I got my ratings. I worked long and hard to get me where i am today.
Sure the fractionals are different than 121 ops. What i've seen is that civilians are much more willing to change and not everything is set in stone. Flexibility is key.
From what I've seen if mainline wants it eagle is going to get the shaft somehow.
lookup
Well-known member
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- Dec 24, 2002
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- 50
Question:
Would military pilots not want to start "back at the begining" because...?
1) who in their right mind would work that hard for $18K/year
2) I should to be flying a big jet since that is what I have been doing, I DAM-N sure am not going to fly a turboprop!
3) I would rather not work with guys that "haven't paid their dues yet"...
4) something else...
Would military pilots not want to start "back at the begining" because...?
1) who in their right mind would work that hard for $18K/year
2) I should to be flying a big jet since that is what I have been doing, I DAM-N sure am not going to fly a turboprop!
3) I would rather not work with guys that "haven't paid their dues yet"...
4) something else...
Spur
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This is great.. really. We should all be proud of our communities and our accomplishments. We've all had to pass our own "rites of passage." And we can all come up with anecdotal evidence to support our opinions. But in short, the plane don't make the pilot.
What Supreme hit on is what HR folks at the majors have known for years... you need a variety of pilot backgrounds to have a healthy pilot force. Kinda like laws against inbreeding, gotta keep the bad genes from multiplying... and we all have bad genes hiding somewhere. There is a reason why the airlines multiply fighter time by X, mil heavy time by Y, etc... and its not that they think the fighter pilot is X times better than a civilian pilot, but rather that the civilian dude is flying X times more hours per year and the fighter dude needs the conversion to be competitive with his civilian peers. So essentially they are leveling the field so as to get the desired mix of military and civilian applicants.
So whats the big picture (back to the thread topic)?
AMR will never allow a system to be put into place that will effectively eliminate any military pilots from coming on board. I know that will disappoint many Eagle guys. I know many military guys would be disappointed if AMR canned a plan to give interviews and seniority numbers to miltary pilots after they upgraded to PIC, but that would have a similiar effect and it would be just as negative.
Anyway, go ahead and blast away with "AMR doesnt need mil pilots", "Protect current AMR (Eagle) pilots", and of course "You all suck!" But the fact is people who know alot more than you or I do have already figured out they need to hire both groups, and they will make sure they get them both.
What Supreme hit on is what HR folks at the majors have known for years... you need a variety of pilot backgrounds to have a healthy pilot force. Kinda like laws against inbreeding, gotta keep the bad genes from multiplying... and we all have bad genes hiding somewhere. There is a reason why the airlines multiply fighter time by X, mil heavy time by Y, etc... and its not that they think the fighter pilot is X times better than a civilian pilot, but rather that the civilian dude is flying X times more hours per year and the fighter dude needs the conversion to be competitive with his civilian peers. So essentially they are leveling the field so as to get the desired mix of military and civilian applicants.
So whats the big picture (back to the thread topic)?
AMR will never allow a system to be put into place that will effectively eliminate any military pilots from coming on board. I know that will disappoint many Eagle guys. I know many military guys would be disappointed if AMR canned a plan to give interviews and seniority numbers to miltary pilots after they upgraded to PIC, but that would have a similiar effect and it would be just as negative.
Anyway, go ahead and blast away with "AMR doesnt need mil pilots", "Protect current AMR (Eagle) pilots", and of course "You all suck!" But the fact is people who know alot more than you or I do have already figured out they need to hire both groups, and they will make sure they get them both.
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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- 1,533
ATTN: I am not in any way intending to demean the professionalism or skills of military pilots. Just sounding the B.S. alarm.
-----------------------------
From what I've seen since I joined the civilian sector you buy your qualifications. You write your check- you pass your "check" ride.
-----------------------------
It's nice to see that your employer was willing to 'make it happen' for you- glad they were able to buy you a 'pass' on your type rides.
That feel nice? Someone ripping on your legitimacy just because they think they have seen a few slide through?
If that's what you've seen, you ain't seen much.
I'm sure you are a real good pilot. You have some serious misconceptions about civilian training.
While it is true that some corporate flight departments take a 'completion' from Flightsafety as good enough, I assure you that some of the hardest training you could imagine in the civvie world happens at the commuters. As I am sure happens in the military, there are some check airmen that take great pleasure in busting people on rides.
The fact that many of these low time folks make it through, then upgrade with minimum time and still fly safely says alot about their dedication and professionalism.
Second of all, if a fresh out of the military guy thinks he is more capable as a major airline candidate than a 4-6000 hr RJ captain, he is probably too cocky to fit in at a regional anyway, so on point for you.
----------------------------
There's over a 30% washout rate in Air Force Undergraduate Pilot Training among highly qualified candidates because the guy giving you the evaluation doesn't care about anything but you meeting the standards.
----------------------------
30%? I want my tax money back! Get new instructors or something...
Maybe they should start with pilots who have experience? (KIDDING)
See above regarding check airmen.
The fact that not every military pilot gets hired at a major proves that it apparently doesn't make that big of a difference.
Untill Delta starts arming their aircraft, which COULD happen given the RJDC situation...
Side note: Two military pilots who are friends of mine said that military flight training was, and I quote: 'Pretty easy, really. They spoon-feed you what you need to know.' (THEIR WORDS)
Loafman:
----------------------------------------------
Yep. The military also buys $25,000 toilet seats. Don't get me started.
----------------------------------------------
You're a genius! Correcting for the TSSMCF (toilet-seat standard monetary compensation factor):
Legendary $700 screwdriver
Real value - probably $7
Military flight training - $1,000,000
Real Value - $10,000
HAR!
Note: There is at least one person who will flame me because of an inability to recognize satire.
-----------------------------
From what I've seen since I joined the civilian sector you buy your qualifications. You write your check- you pass your "check" ride.
-----------------------------
It's nice to see that your employer was willing to 'make it happen' for you- glad they were able to buy you a 'pass' on your type rides.
That feel nice? Someone ripping on your legitimacy just because they think they have seen a few slide through?
If that's what you've seen, you ain't seen much.
I'm sure you are a real good pilot. You have some serious misconceptions about civilian training.
While it is true that some corporate flight departments take a 'completion' from Flightsafety as good enough, I assure you that some of the hardest training you could imagine in the civvie world happens at the commuters. As I am sure happens in the military, there are some check airmen that take great pleasure in busting people on rides.
The fact that many of these low time folks make it through, then upgrade with minimum time and still fly safely says alot about their dedication and professionalism.
Second of all, if a fresh out of the military guy thinks he is more capable as a major airline candidate than a 4-6000 hr RJ captain, he is probably too cocky to fit in at a regional anyway, so on point for you.
----------------------------
There's over a 30% washout rate in Air Force Undergraduate Pilot Training among highly qualified candidates because the guy giving you the evaluation doesn't care about anything but you meeting the standards.
----------------------------
30%? I want my tax money back! Get new instructors or something...
Maybe they should start with pilots who have experience? (KIDDING)
See above regarding check airmen.
The fact that not every military pilot gets hired at a major proves that it apparently doesn't make that big of a difference.
Untill Delta starts arming their aircraft, which COULD happen given the RJDC situation...
Side note: Two military pilots who are friends of mine said that military flight training was, and I quote: 'Pretty easy, really. They spoon-feed you what you need to know.' (THEIR WORDS)
Loafman:
----------------------------------------------
Yep. The military also buys $25,000 toilet seats. Don't get me started.
----------------------------------------------
You're a genius! Correcting for the TSSMCF (toilet-seat standard monetary compensation factor):
Legendary $700 screwdriver
Real value - probably $7
Military flight training - $1,000,000
Real Value - $10,000
HAR!
Note: There is at least one person who will flame me because of an inability to recognize satire.
pilotyip
Well-known member
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- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 13,629
$25,000 toilet seat
Since this has been brought up a number of times by pilots without a clue, here is the real toilet seat story. As best I remember it from 20 years ago, when I was still flying the P-3, Lockheed was charging the Navy $527 for a quote "Toilet Seat" in the P-3C, back in the early 80's, Sen Proxmier (sp?) made a big deal out of this with his golden screwdriver award. In fact the $527 toilet seat was a 5' bathroom compartment liner, made out of fire proof molded fiberglass, capable of holding 300 pound man at 3.0 G''s, with hold down handels so if you hit a bump while on the seat you would not break your seal. This was close to the same price you have paid Winabago (sp?) for a toilet compartment liner for their RV. But nobody researches any of this information and they are drones of the media, repeating what they have heard. BTW Lockheed elected to give the Navy free "toilet seats" in the 40M+ price of thier P-3C
Since this has been brought up a number of times by pilots without a clue, here is the real toilet seat story. As best I remember it from 20 years ago, when I was still flying the P-3, Lockheed was charging the Navy $527 for a quote "Toilet Seat" in the P-3C, back in the early 80's, Sen Proxmier (sp?) made a big deal out of this with his golden screwdriver award. In fact the $527 toilet seat was a 5' bathroom compartment liner, made out of fire proof molded fiberglass, capable of holding 300 pound man at 3.0 G''s, with hold down handels so if you hit a bump while on the seat you would not break your seal. This was close to the same price you have paid Winabago (sp?) for a toilet compartment liner for their RV. But nobody researches any of this information and they are drones of the media, repeating what they have heard. BTW Lockheed elected to give the Navy free "toilet seats" in the 40M+ price of thier P-3C
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100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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Spur
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"Side note: Two military pilots who are friends of mine said that military flight training was, and I quote: 'Pretty easy, really. They spoon-feed you what you need to know.' (THEIR WORDS)"
If you are good, UPT is easy...
Side note: 2 years ago we had a US Airways Airbus FO come through my flight. He was going to a C-130 Guard unit. Well, he washed out-- in T-37s, PRE-Solo. I'll bet he didnt think it was easy.
If you are good, UPT is easy...
Side note: 2 years ago we had a US Airways Airbus FO come through my flight. He was going to a C-130 Guard unit. Well, he washed out-- in T-37s, PRE-Solo. I'll bet he didnt think it was easy.
WyoHerkdriver
Well-known member
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- May 7, 2002
- Posts
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I went through USAF UPT eleven years ago and it was anything but easy. It was very demanding and if a guy had a bad week, he would be sent packing. I think the stress of that 13 month program took five years off my life. We also had a former regional airline pilot in my class with at least 1000 hours of flying and he washed out in T-37s. The amount of flying time a person had when entering UPT had little to do with how well they did. I don't care what anyone says - UPT was VERY difficult (although it is certainly easier now that the AF has replaced T-38 training with the T-1 for the majority of student pilots).
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Loafman
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My pee pee bigger than your pee pee. When's this going to END??????
The guys that wash out of the T-37 do so because they go deaf and can't hear the instructors anymore. Lucky AMR has no T-37's in revenue service seeing as it is such a difficult plane to fly.
Here's the deal people. No one I've talked to in the last 2 weeks at AA gives a rats a$$ about the provision to hire military guys above us at mainline. That will probably be the first thing gutted out of any merger agreement. All we're concerned with at this point is taking care of people who are here on the property now, not someone who just started UPT and won't apply for another 8 years.
The real truth to the matter is this:
The two AMR pilot groups have been bickering for years and never been closer and more unified than they have in the past few months.
If we can't come to some agreement that is mutually beneficial to ALL involved, the company just gets closer to McCain-Lott being passed and getting their baseball style arbitration.
The company will continue to circumvent scope with legal loopholes and reverse codesharing, or an arbitrator will rule in favor of the company and Eagle will grow and AA will shrink. Either way, the military guys end up flying RJ's if they want to come to AMR.
One list with no BS is the only way out of this scenario.
The guys that wash out of the T-37 do so because they go deaf and can't hear the instructors anymore. Lucky AMR has no T-37's in revenue service seeing as it is such a difficult plane to fly.
Here's the deal people. No one I've talked to in the last 2 weeks at AA gives a rats a$$ about the provision to hire military guys above us at mainline. That will probably be the first thing gutted out of any merger agreement. All we're concerned with at this point is taking care of people who are here on the property now, not someone who just started UPT and won't apply for another 8 years.
The real truth to the matter is this:
The two AMR pilot groups have been bickering for years and never been closer and more unified than they have in the past few months.
If we can't come to some agreement that is mutually beneficial to ALL involved, the company just gets closer to McCain-Lott being passed and getting their baseball style arbitration.
The company will continue to circumvent scope with legal loopholes and reverse codesharing, or an arbitrator will rule in favor of the company and Eagle will grow and AA will shrink. Either way, the military guys end up flying RJ's if they want to come to AMR.
One list with no BS is the only way out of this scenario.
Last edited:
AAsRedHeadedbro
Havin' fun at the track!
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