Trouble at AMR

[lookup]

Question:
Would military pilots not want to start "back at the begining" because...?

1) who in their right mind would work that hard for $18K/year
2) I should to be flying a big jet since that is what I have been doing, I DAM-N sure am not going to fly a turboprop!
3) I would rather not work with guys that "haven't paid their dues yet"...
4) something else...

 

[Spur]

This is great.. really. We should all be proud of our communities and our accomplishments. We've all had to pass our own "rites of passage." And we can all come up with anecdotal evidence to support our opinions. But in short, the plane don't make the pilot.

What Supreme hit on is what HR folks at the majors have known for years... you need a variety of pilot backgrounds to have a healthy pilot force. Kinda like laws against inbreeding, gotta keep the bad genes from multiplying... and we all have bad genes hiding somewhere. There is a reason why the airlines multiply fighter time by X, mil heavy time by Y, etc... and its not that they think the fighter pilot is X times better than a civilian pilot, but rather that the civilian dude is flying X times more hours per year and the fighter dude needs the conversion to be competitive with his civilian peers. So essentially they are leveling the field so as to get the desired mix of military and civilian applicants.

So whats the big picture (back to the thread topic)?

AMR will never allow a system to be put into place that will effectively eliminate any military pilots from coming on board. I know that will disappoint many Eagle guys. I know many military guys would be disappointed if AMR canned a plan to give interviews and seniority numbers to miltary pilots after they upgraded to PIC, but that would have a similiar effect and it would be just as negative.

Anyway, go ahead and blast away with "AMR doesnt need mil pilots", "Protect current AMR (Eagle) pilots", and of course "You all suck!" But the fact is people who know alot more than you or I do have already figured out they need to hire both groups, and they will make sure they get them both.

 

[100LL... Again!]

ATTN: I am not in any way intending to demean the professionalism or skills of military pilots. Just sounding the B.S. alarm.

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From what I've seen since I joined the civilian sector you buy your qualifications. You write your check- you pass your "check" ride.
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It's nice to see that your employer was willing to 'make it happen' for you- glad they were able to buy you a 'pass' on your type rides.

That feel nice? Someone ripping on your legitimacy just because they think they have seen a few slide through?

If that's what you've seen, you ain't seen much.
I'm sure you are a real good pilot. You have some serious misconceptions about civilian training.

While it is true that some corporate flight departments take a 'completion' from Flightsafety as good enough, I assure you that some of the hardest training you could imagine in the civvie world happens at the commuters. As I am sure happens in the military, there are some check airmen that take great pleasure in busting people on rides.

The fact that many of these low time folks make it through, then upgrade with minimum time and still fly safely says alot about their dedication and professionalism.

Second of all, if a fresh out of the military guy thinks he is more capable as a major airline candidate than a 4-6000 hr RJ captain, he is probably too cocky to fit in at a regional anyway, so on point for you.



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There's over a 30% washout rate in Air Force Undergraduate Pilot Training among highly qualified candidates because the guy giving you the evaluation doesn't care about anything but you meeting the standards.
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30%? I want my tax money back! Get new instructors or something...
Maybe they should start with pilots who have experience? (KIDDING)

See above regarding check airmen.

The fact that not every military pilot gets hired at a major proves that it apparently doesn't make that big of a difference.
Untill Delta starts arming their aircraft, which COULD happen given the RJDC situation...

Side note: Two military pilots who are friends of mine said that military flight training was, and I quote: 'Pretty easy, really. They spoon-feed you what you need to know.' (THEIR WORDS)




Loafman:
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Yep. The military also buys $25,000 toilet seats. Don't get me started.
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You're a genius! Correcting for the TSSMCF (toilet-seat standard monetary compensation factor):

Legendary $700 screwdriver
Real value - probably $7

Military flight training - $1,000,000
Real Value - $10,000

HAR!

Note: There is at least one person who will flame me because of an inability to recognize satire.

 

[pilotyip]

$25,000 toilet seat

Since this has been brought up a number of times by pilots without a clue, here is the real toilet seat story. As best I remember it from 20 years ago, when I was still flying the P-3, Lockheed was charging the Navy $527 for a quote "Toilet Seat" in the P-3C, back in the early 80's, Sen Proxmier (sp?) made a big deal out of this with his golden screwdriver award. In fact the $527 toilet seat was a 5' bathroom compartment liner, made out of fire proof molded fiberglass, capable of holding 300 pound man at 3.0 G''s, with hold down handels so if you hit a bump while on the seat you would not break your seal. This was close to the same price you have paid Winabago (sp?) for a toilet compartment liner for their RV. But nobody researches any of this information and they are drones of the media, repeating what they have heard. BTW Lockheed elected to give the Navy free "toilet seats" in the 40M+ price of thier P-3C

 

[100LL... Again!]

pilotyip-

Maybe so, but the point was that everyone knows ALL branches of the government overpay on a lot of items.

I don't think that the COST of someone's training proves much.

 

[Loafman]

Re: $25,000 toilet seat

Since this has been brought up a number of times by pilots without a clue, here is the real toilet seat story. As best I remember it from 20 years ago, when I was still flying the P-3, Lockheed was charging the Navy $527 for a quote "Toilet Seat" in the P-3C, back in the early 80's, Sen Proxmier (sp?) made a big deal out of this with his golden screwdriver award. In fact the $527 toilet seat was a 5' bathroom compartment liner, made out of fire proof molded fiberglass, capable of holding 300 pound man at 3.0 G''s, with hold down handels so if you hit a bump while on the seat you would not break your seal. This was close to the same price you have paid Winabago (sp?) for a toilet compartment liner for their RV. But nobody researches any of this information and they are drones of the media, repeating what they have heard. BTW Lockheed elected to give the Navy free "toilet seats" in the 40M+ price of thier P-3C

It's probably those "handels" that run up the price.

 

[Spur]

"Side note: Two military pilots who are friends of mine said that military flight training was, and I quote: 'Pretty easy, really. They spoon-feed you what you need to know.' (THEIR WORDS)"

If you are good, UPT is easy...

Side note: 2 years ago we had a US Airways Airbus FO come through my flight. He was going to a C-130 Guard unit. Well, he washed out-- in T-37s, PRE-Solo. I'll bet he didnt think it was easy.

 

[WyoHerkdriver]

I went through USAF UPT eleven years ago and it was anything but easy. It was very demanding and if a guy had a bad week, he would be sent packing. I think the stress of that 13 month program took five years off my life. We also had a former regional airline pilot in my class with at least 1000 hours of flying and he washed out in T-37s. The amount of flying time a person had when entering UPT had little to do with how well they did. I don't care what anyone says - UPT was VERY difficult (although it is certainly easier now that the AF has replaced T-38 training with the T-1 for the majority of student pilots).

 

[Loafman]

My pee pee bigger than your pee pee. When's this going to END??????



The guys that wash out of the T-37 do so because they go deaf and can't hear the instructors anymore. Lucky AMR has no T-37's in revenue service seeing as it is such a difficult plane to fly.

Here's the deal people. No one I've talked to in the last 2 weeks at AA gives a rats a$$ about the provision to hire military guys above us at mainline. That will probably be the first thing gutted out of any merger agreement. All we're concerned with at this point is taking care of people who are here on the property now, not someone who just started UPT and won't apply for another 8 years.

The real truth to the matter is this:

The two AMR pilot groups have been bickering for years and never been closer and more unified than they have in the past few months.

If we can't come to some agreement that is mutually beneficial to ALL involved, the company just gets closer to McCain-Lott being passed and getting their baseball style arbitration.

The company will continue to circumvent scope with legal loopholes and reverse codesharing, or an arbitrator will rule in favor of the company and Eagle will grow and AA will shrink. Either way, the military guys end up flying RJ's if they want to come to AMR.

One list with no BS is the only way out of this scenario.

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

This thread has been hijacked!!

How about we get back on the subject or start a new thread pertaining to this stupid argument.

 

[100LL... Again!]

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If you are good, UPT is easy...
---------------------------------

I think we agree, then.

Sounds like you were one of those good ones.

Civilian training is easy if you are good as well.

The two pilots I'm referring to did seem sharp. They also were very respectful of us civ guys in class. Didn't act like we were a bunch of posers who had paid to pass their checkrides.
Actually asked us for a lot of help to transition to the 121 way of doing things.

My impression was that the original post implied just that.

I hope I am wrong.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Thread hijacke by non-AMR pilots!!!

This thread has been hijacked , mostly by pilots that have never flipped a switch for AMR in any capacity!

Military vs civilian, I won't waste my time. However, as far as the single point entry to the AMR pilot line, a few points: I don't think AMR is concerned about providing an entry level MD80 or B767 seat to anyone that feels they are special due to their unique backgroung or who they think they know. I think that most everyone that has responded to this thread is thinking about hiring practices/needs in todays terms...the RJ. Most airlines are cutting back from the mainline and going RJ. This may not be true in the future, especially when things start to turn around. ASMs are still higher on the RJ. When it is time to bring back the MD80s that are parked and buy new aircraft. The company may want to hire off the street to mainline or lets say larger jets if it is to be one list. This is not to give somone special a bigger jet or to screw the Eagle guys. It's to save training costs or fill vacancies after a bid closes. During the last hiring cycle at AA, there were classes for F/Es and F/O for F100, MD80, B767, and maybe even the A300. It was based on needs of the company and vacancies, not where the applicant learned to fly!

When CAL and CAL EX were hiring and giving one seniority number, pilots were hired to either company, but acquired seniority at CAL. A CAL EX pilot could go to CAL after 9 months in the RJ or be paid a 25% override if he/she stayed on the RJ. When that CAL EX pilot transferred to CAL, it was with all his/her seniority. So even if AMR hires off the street to a bigger jet. that pilot will remain very junior in seat and be on reserve a very long time. Yes, there are pay and retirement benefits to being on the bigger jets. Once hired, people choose their career paths, equipment, bases, etc. for different reasons.

A few observations and clarificatons:

G4G5 had some very valid points and has taken the time to do a little research.

EagleFly has had many well though out responses in the past, but I think his initial response to the One List was mostly emotionsal. I can understand that having worked for AMR at AA, AE, TWA LLC (Furloughed). If I were still flying for Eagle, I would be very cautious. I would negociate the best deal possible, but don't think that ALPA nation will look out for you. They sold out TWA and TWA had councils 1, 3, and 4. TWA was there when ALPA first came to be and was sold down the river. Do you really think that ALPA is going to be looking out for you? ALPA was sending out pledge cards and actively trying to recuit the APA pilots back to ALPA and TWA was the bait. You can say TWA was bankrupt and that you are in a better position, but I wouldn't count on it. AMR told Air Virginia to go bankrupt and then bought them for pennies on the dollar. It is a proven AMR formula.

If you flew for Eagle when there were four seperate carriers, Flagship, Simmons, Wings West, and Executive (my alma mater), there was a lot of friction between the pilots from the different carriers that were co-located at the same base (Us and them). I have spoken to many Eagle pilots about that over the years and they have all said they don't think as AE in those seperate terms any more. One list would solve that problem and take care of SCOPE, etc. The company could deploy their resources more efficiently by putting the right sized airplane on the appropriate route and it might just improve the working environment.

Someone had stated that the TWA LLC furloughees had only been there 2-3 years; that is not correct. To bring in the New Year, AMR started furloughing upto 1996 and the cuts will go much deeper. The junior AA pilot will be displaced to STL under the new base called "SLT". At the time of the merger, AA had a little over 600 pilots on furluogh (probationers). The DOH for the TWA LLC pilots was reshuffled and 208 AA new hires were brought back from furlough and given 1989 equivelant seniority at TWA LLC. That means that our junior Captains that are now flying as F/Os (1989-hire) will be furloughed and replaced by an AA New Hire (Probationer) in SLT (STL). AA is projecting 140 junior AA pilots to be displaced to ST. Louis. This is not an emotional response, just the facts.

So if I were at still at Eagle, I would negociate for no loss of seat, bring back the AE furloughess and get as many mechanisms as possible to hold your seat and flow through to the "small jet (SJ)" and mainline. A number at AA with room to advance in the current and future fleet of RJs and a future slot to bigger A/C, would be an improvement. If you are a senior RJ Captain with an AA number, you won't be moving to mainline anytime soon. If the mechanism for the deal is to add more total aircraft in the form of larger RJs, then the career for AE pilots will improve.

This proposal is in it's infancy. Let's be cautiously optimistic, watch our six, and try to work together.

Let's hope for a better New Year,

Jeff


PS: Not all the furloghees will come back to fly an RJ, some may not come back at all. Some have obtained jobs that they will never leave to come back to AMR. Others will by-pass the RJ or SJ until they can come back to a jet the size they left, etc.

 

[Loafman]

AMR will never allow a system to be put into place that will effectively eliminate any military pilots from coming on board. I know that will disappoint many Eagle guys. I know many military guys would be disappointed if AMR canned a plan to give interviews and seniority numbers to miltary pilots after they upgraded to PIC, but that would have a similiar effect and it would be just as negative.

Anyway, go ahead and blast away with "AMR doesnt need mil pilots", "Protect current AMR (Eagle) pilots", and of course "You all suck!" But the fact is people who know alot more than you or I do have already figured out they need to hire both groups, and they will make sure they get them both.

You got a f#$%ing crystal ball or somethin'? What mountaintop guru you been smokin smack wit?

 

[toneal]

Mean people suck.

Nice people swallow

 

[av8dv8]

Helgy?

C'mon Jeff!

You and I BOTH know that everything
you learned about aviation came from
the mighty DASH!!

Say it aint so BABY!!!



AAhh just funnin'

I'll go back to lurking and learning now.....
from the mighty knowledge meister,

G4


G'day All!

 

[Loafman]

This thread has been hijacked!!

How about we get back on the subject or start a new thread pertaining to this stupid argument.

OK, I started a poll in the "General" section.

 

[eaglefly]

Jeff, I find your comments interesting but unfortunetly predictable. I see your a "mainline" pilot (I can understand your worry as a junior mainline pilot). You've read several posts here and declare G4G5's comments (a fellow mainline pilot) to be "valid" and a result of "research". Mine (an Eagle pilot) are just "emotional".

I see a great deal of "emotion" in G4G5 (a lot of fear too). He comes across as an AA pilot who is not used to "waiting" for anything or anyone to meet his needs.

Jeff, your (and G4G5's) observations are from the perspective of a "mainline" pilot. Mine is from the OVERWHELMING majority of Eagle pilots.

Our MEC disagrees with several of the proposals in the APA's CURRENT conceptual proposal.

Fact : ALPA National does not need to "look out for us". It is our MEC and our pilot group that will agree or not to give up our contractual rights to our CURRENT aircraft and routes. We are not inbankruptcy and our contractual rights regarding transfer of assets cannot be unilaterally abrogated by APA or AMR, therefore we have the contractual right to participate in any discussions that directly affect our current operations. For ALPA National to jeoprdize a group they already have a feduciary duty to fairly represent in an effort to attract a seperate pilot group would be a violation of that feduciary duty and would put ALPA Nationals tit in a legal ringer. Again, unlike the U/J4J situation, we have contractual language protecting our current operations.

It is interesting to note some of those stipulations in the APA's initial proposal :

1.) "Commuter" pilots excluded from development of proposal and subsequent discussions with managment.

2.) "mainline" pilots UNILATERALLY determine distribution of aircraft and flying.

3.) "Mainline" pilots given special seniority and bidding rights at "commuter" division.

4.) Only LIMITED number of "commuter" pilots permitted to bid mainline positions at an undetermined future date.

Does this look familiar to anyone ?

Looks like J4J in a slightly prettier dress.

Jeff, it seems as though you're saying i.e., "be good little boys and take what you're given by the APA and maybe in 5-8 years we'll throw you a bone".

Ahhh, thanks but no thanks.

Thankfully, if we did not have those protective provisions in our contract, the APA could attempt to just take our operations and to hell with us.

When the APA proposes a true "one list" scenario, we'll be there too.

But to expect us to just hand over our CURRENT flying and draw a line thru our contractual protections for the APA's promise of a "maybe, kinda, we'll see" future is ludicrous.

But what do I know ?

I guess I need to do more "research" so I can make some "valid" points and stop being an "emotional" commuter pilot.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Eaglefly, you misunderstood and misread

Eaglefly

You have totally misconstrued my meaning and misjudged me. I respect many of your previous opinions, but the One List is an emotional response. NO, I am not saying be good little boys and I am not a mainline APA boy trying to screw Eagle. I was furloughed from TWA LLC, before that I flew for AE at Executive and before that I was an F/A for AA on international. I went on strike at AA in 1993, I was threatend with furlough from AE, that they were closing the MIA base to give the flying to another Eagle- dog and pony scare tactics, etc. In fact, my Captain bid evaporated and they offered to let be start over at Simmons, on probation again at the bottom of the senority list and this time at first year pay. I said no thanks and went to PDT for a pay raise to start and then went to TWA.

My thoughts were meant more as warning to AE pilots and to keep an open mind and to consider all options objectively before rejecting a proposal that hasn't even been fully proposed, yet.

Since Eagle has become One carieer instead of four, the competive conflicts of bases and flying among the Eagles has gone away. That is an improvement in working conditions and the ability to deal with the company. No more divide and conquer a la AMR. In addition, the operation under one certificate has become more efficient for AMR. A win/win.

The American connection has been eroding the AE flying. Fourteen AE RJs have already been transferred to TSA and are not being flown by AE pilots. What has ALPA done to protect your flying from being farmed out? What will keep AMR from giving more flying to the connections? Oh, you have contract? Well, it hasn't helped you much so far!

Executive was almost sold as another way to circumvent SCOPE, etc. Ask any wholly-owned commuter from another carrier (PDT, ALG, PSA) how their flying has been eroded by contract carriers.

You are correct that it is up to your MEC and LEC to represent you, but don't count and much help from ALPA National. Your MEC signed an inferior 16-year contract, for a flow-through carrot that hasn't worked very well for most.

If every AE pilot could get a number with their DOH and have mechanisms to flow through. gaurantees of A/C acquisitions for growth to allow advancement, etc., then it would be an improvement. Would it not? If the One List could keep AMR from farming out the flying to the "Connection", would that improve your working conditions? If this new agreement would allow you to fly a bigger RJ that paid more than any A/C that Eagle flies, would that be an improvement?

I am not saying be a good little boy, I am saying put on a flak jacket, fill some sand bags and consider all the options without the emotion. If you make decisions to prove a point, you will most likely get steam rolled by APA and AMR. I sent you a PM a couple of months ago to share some insider trading, but you never responded. I sincerely hope you never have to pull gear for me. I would rather see us grow and hire someone off the street to pull the gear for you! (Maybe someone with a Commercial multiengine conversion with a centerline thrust restiction!...sorry Spur I couldn't resist.)

I wish you and all of us the best of luck. Again, I am not your enemy. For the record, I have never locked my kitbag and I always leave it at the domicile and Nobody has ever put any rubber dog sh!t in it yet. Feel free to be the first, but I won't take it personally. I have been around the AMR block a few too many times for that. I will consider it a sign of effection and that it is nature running it's course.

XXOO

Jeff

 

[eaglefly]

Jeff, You're hopelessly coupled to the cross-hairs of the "mainline view" (understandable since that is your situation) . Please for a moment disengage and hand-fly what I've been trying to explain.

-Eagle pilots ARE interested in a "one list" scenario. When one is proposed, we'll be happy to join in.

-Thank you for your past history and explanation of the airline I've been working at for 16 years.

- Thank you (I think) for your "warning". Our pilot group will take it under advisement.

- Your lack of understanding of our "inferior" 16-year agreement is evident. The transfer of the 14 145's to TSA is under grievance, but this is a "murky" area as American Eagle has never served STL. Our current route/aircraft combination is much clearer and would require complete disregard for our contractual language.

-As a former TWA pilot, I suggest you review the ALPA constitution and bylaws. National is there to provide assistance to our MEC and cannot impede us. Is AA ALPA yet ? Until you are, this is not a potential obstacle to us.

-No emotion here. Strictly business. We'll use all means to act in our best interest. You seem perplexed that we're not acting in your best interest. When a proposal comes forward that provides acceptable benefits and protections to both sides, again we'll be there.

- You don't want me to pull gear for you ? I'm already on the AA mainline list with almost 3000 pilots junior to me yourself included, unless you were hired at TWA before '89. (ironically, had you chose to come to Simmons in '93, you would have been pulling gear for me). It'll be many years before I see AA property (I should have been finishing my first year there now) but we probably won't have the opportunity to fly together.

I know you're not "my" enemy (I'm not your enemy). Most Eagle pilots WANT to believe that the AA pilot group is not "our" enemy. But, several things need to be understood by the APA leadership.

1.) The stipulations in the current "proposal" will not fly with our MEC or pilot group.

2.) For a "one list" concept to work, it will REQUIRE the agreement and cooperation of BOTH our governing bodies and pilot groups.

3.) Any attempt at "strong-arming" a'la the TWA bankruptcy takeover is doomed.

Personally, I don't see how the mainline operation of RJ's is going to give Carty the 1 to 2 Billion in ANNUAL savings that he is demanding from mainline labor.

Lets agree to disagree and wait for the other shoe to drop.....

AMR's response.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Eaglefly

First, I think we agree on more than you think. "Coupled to the cross hairs"? I don't think so, I haven't used cross hairs since the Dash 8; I'm mostly a V-bars kind of guy, but I am flexible and love to travel.....and did I mention I am a real people person?!!

I never said I understood your 16-year contract, but many in the industry think it is inferior to other commuters. From what little I know of it, it seems to benefit the more senior AE pilots in regard to a flow-through and as you stated you have your AA number and are still stuck at Eagle after 16 years. I would like to hear from other commuter pilots as to who would like to trade contracts with you. Comair, ASA, ACA, PDT, ALG, SkyWest, Mesaba, etc. Maybe I can't see the value of your industry-leading contract through my mainline-tinted glasses. Would any of them want to trade? Has your contractual mechanism for raises linked to other commuters in the industry as interpreted by AMR and fought for by your ALPA MEC worked the way it was intended?

My main points:

-One list with the proper details could and should benefit all the pilots and AMR.

-If AMR grows in size in the form of small jets (SJs), that could bring ALL furloughees back and represent growth. Growth that could translate into bigger airplanes at a future date when things get back on track. It would allow you to fly a bigger jet in the form of an SJ and move to the mainline quicker. It all depends on the ageement. (Good luck, and I hope ALPA fights as hard as you think they will. Maybe your position is much stronger than I know, or maybe ALPA is printing up pledge cards to send all of the APA members.)

-With 16 years with AE and an AA number to your name with the current agreement, how many more years do you think will pass before you move to the mainline? Your number may be more senior to me at present, but I will be recalled with all the other TWA LLC and AA furloughees before you move to mainline with all the associated benefits and retirement. How old will you be then?

-As far as your APA pilot comment, I have worked for four seperate ALPA carriers for a number of years and have only been apart of the APA for about a year, unless you count my year of apprentice at Executive. Hell, Kit Darby charged me $155 at the DC job fair as appossed to the $99 for the furloughed ALPA pilots. What's one more kick while I am down, anyway?!!!

Eagle as one group funtions better and is more efficient. The One List has that potential.

The $64K question is who will fly the "small jets". It would appear from your posts that you may think they will be painted in AE colors, but the AE jets that hold 50 seats are flying with 44 seats aboard, Executive was almost sold due to SCOPE and the "Connection" is still flying for AMR.

G4G5 made the point that AE is owned by AMR and not subject to Mohawk/Allegehny. It is not a merger per se.

My point is every merger is different and you can't count on everything you think you have in the way of protection. Take it for what it is worth. I am on my back with feet in the air saying the "the sky is falling". I was just trying to give you and your fellow AE pals a friendly warning, but we all must decide how we will hold up our own piece of sky.

Until we see more details, I will keep an open mind and hope and fight for the best for all of us. Until then, "autopilot engage, I'm stepping back for physiological needs!"

Peace