Trouble at AMR

[SUPREME NTM]

Muddauber,

YOU ARE SO GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Loafman]

All of the military services spend over a million dollars on flight training qualifying a pilot to earn his wings. How much did you spend on your flight training Yak?

From what I've seen since I joined the civilian sector you buy your qualifications. You write your check- you pass your "check" ride. There's over a 30% washout rate in Air Force Undergraduate Pilot Training among highly qualified candidates because the guy giving you the evaluation doesn't care about anything but you meeting the standards.

By the way, a lot of military pilots have a lot a time doing what you've been doing only they had some very nasty people shooting at them while they were doing it.

Yep. The military also buys $25,000 toilet seats. Don't get me started.

 

[English]

(This post is by CaptRob, who was unable to log in under his screenname.)

Do we really want to get into the "Who's training cost more" arguement? Anyone that has worked around government/military procurement knows the government pays far more than it should for everything. If for no other reason, the supplier will charge a premium just for having to comply with the restrictions, requirements and exhaustive proceedures just to sell them a box of "Portable, Hand-held Communications Inscribers." (Read that-#2 pencils)

I borrowed a small fortune to go to the FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach, Florida. I found a wide range of pilots with backgrounds as varied as their abilities. There were great sticks that were delivering pizzas to pay the $300/hr for a Seminole with an instructor and there were the arrogant,"well funded" idiots that couldn't keep a volleyball in the air with a tractor beam. Not to mention everyone in between. It was fun watching the Asiana ab-initro kids trying to taxi for the first time when the most complicated vehicle they had ever operated before arriving in the USA was a bicycle.

The point is, while quality training is very important, you can't force knowledge and even better yet, good judgement into the head of a student unless he/she has the capacity to accept it and use it.

As for the 30% wash out rate in military training, that is the same failure rate the FAA expects to see from it's inspectors and designated examiners. Less than that raises a red flag and inquiries follow.

Then you consider the numbers from this prespective;
Of the total number of student pilots, how many solo?
Of that number, how many actually get their private?
Of that number, how many are IFR?
Of that number, how many are commercial rated?
Of that number, how many are multi-engine rated?
Of that number, how many are CFIs?
Of that number, how many hold an ATP?
Of that number, how many have a type rating?
By the time you pass through all those filters, most, not all, but most are probably pretty good at pointing airborne aluminum tubes around at high speed. This is not intended as a slam on military training. In fact, I have had none so I have no way of commenting on what it entails. But, I know civilian training. And I feel pretty qualified to comment on that.

Monday, January 6 is the date management is supposed to reply to the APA proposal. I think their reply will generate a thread at least as much fun as this one has become.

 

[pilotyip]

Civilian washouts

In the past 5 years we have hired 47 military pilots, 1 failed to complete training. In the same time we have hired 143 non-military pilots, with 11 who failed to complete training. This includes putting Helo pilots in jets with an almost 100% completion our one mil failure was a low time helo guy. This is not saying that mil pilots are better, it just says when you are going to spend money training someone, you have a higher probability of success with the mil. They are pre-screened, they are uniformly disciplined, and they follow orders including ones they don't like. I know, we have not hired very many RJ Captains into our fleet, but the one we did hire did just fine.

 

[G4G5]

All of the military services spend over a million dollars on flight training qualifying a pilot to earn his wings. How much did you spend on your flight training Yak?

From what I've seen since I joined the civilian sector you buy your qualifications. You write your check- you pass your "check" ride. There's over a 30% washout rate in Air Force Undergraduate Pilot Training among highly qualified candidates because the guy giving you the evaluation doesn't care about anything but you meeting the standards.

By the way, a lot of military pilots have a lot a time doing what you've been doing only they had some very nasty people shooting at them while they were doing it.

Hey, Ice man
Is a pound of butter sufficient to get your head through the cockpit door?

Remeber that the title of the thread is, "Trouble at AMR"
Not I think military pilots are the best and civilian pilots stink. What if anything do you think that your post added to the thread?

Grow up, Maverick

 

[CRJ puppy]

I borrowed a small fortune to go to the FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach, Florida. I found a wide range of pilots with backgrounds as varied as their abilities. There were great sticks that were delivering pizzas to pay the $300/hr for a Seminole with an instructor and there were the arrogant,"well funded" idiots that couldn't keep a volleyball in the air with a tractor beam. Not to mention everyone in between. It was fun watching the Asiana ab-initro kids trying to taxi for the first time when the most complicated vehicle they had ever operated before arriving in the USA was a bicycle.

PLease be careful when "flaming" an institution and a people.

The comments about the Asian MEN is uncalled for.

Additionally, while instruction at FSI is expensive, it still is NOT $300/hr for a Seminole.

 

[Loafman]

Mean people suck.

 

[English]

(CaptRob's response again)

1) I was flaming nobody. I didn't say asian men or asian kids, I said Asiana ab-initio kids, meaning Asiana Airlines ab-initio students. The bicycle comment came from one of the Asiana flight instructors, referring to the cultural differences between the US and their country, where these students had never even driven a car before learning to fly an airplane.

2) The Seminole was $250 per hour in 1990. The instructor was $30. I merely added inflation to come up with the $300 an hour figure.

3) Lighten up.

 

[Loafman]

With regards to a "one-list" propasal at AA that you guys are discussing; Q:Who will AA hire in the future if the military pilots refuse to start "at the bottom" as well as other regional pilots currently flying for Comair, ASA NW Airlink, etc.?

If a young RJ F/O or Capt at say, Mesaba, can go straight to SWA, UPS or Delta (down the road), they would not consider starting all over at AA. Just at face value the one-list idea won't work when discussing hiring from the bottom up.....

I think that's why they call SF3 FO an ENTRY level position. I would guess there are a few furloughed guys on here that would take a one list Eagle FO job with mainline career potential over working at Home Depot.

 

[Diesel]

In the fractionals from what I've seen the military pilots have had a greater washout than the civilian pilots. Especially the commuter or corporate guys.

A common response from a comutter pilot is: "You mean we only have 3 leg's today? Oh and there are no MEL's and the AP works?"

A common military response is: "you mean the destination changed again? That's the second time enroute? Do you have any idea where they are going to have us end up?"

It's two different cultures. I take offense that since my check didn't bounce I got my ratings. I worked long and hard to get me where i am today.

Sure the fractionals are different than 121 ops. What i've seen is that civilians are much more willing to change and not everything is set in stone. Flexibility is key.

From what I've seen if mainline wants it eagle is going to get the shaft somehow.