Trouble at AMR

[WyoHerkdriver]

Why don't you tell us why it is so bad for the Eagle guys? I am a furloughed AA pilot so I would personally like to see it happen, but I still do not see why the Eagle guys would be so upset about the deal. In any event, if it does happen, it wil take years to iron out the details and implement.

 

[G4G5]

To answer a few questions:

The money will come from the revenues generated by the additional RJ's. They are not going to add RJ's to routes that don't make money.

Their will also be additional revenues from the STL feed. Trans States and Chitaqua don't fly the routes for free. Carty is already paying a premium for the STL feed. IMHO he doesn't care who he pays, especially if he can get control of the STL feed and can increase the flying.

The F100 are going away, the CRJ70 or the ERJ170/190/195 has to be cheaper to operate then the F100. Their routes flown in an RJ will increase revenues

The APA is better at this then I am, my point is their are plenty of ways that this plan will generate additional revenues to increase the pay rates. Besides what do the Eagle pilots have to lose? Under their current deal they get NOTHING, so the last time I checked something was better then nothing.

Again, IMHO I would bet that AA mgt would rather purchase the ERJ's then the CRJ's. The CRJ's were just a stop gap until the ERJ's were certified. The time is here. The ERJ is the first regional jet designed with the sole purpose of being an RJ (not a Canadair 601). With it's 6'7" stand up cabin, it is bound to be a pax favorite when compaired to the competition. This is the marketing edge that AA mgt want's(more room through out coach, stand up cabin, real overhead bins). The ERJ will seem much less like a commuter allowing AA to sell the airline as All AA not, Delta and Comair/ASA. They will have a much better product then the competition. Hey, what if they add XM satelite radio? So, as an Eagle pilot do you take the chance that all of the over 75,000# (all the ERJ170/190/195) flying will go to AA mainline? Or do you get on board? AA mgt will have no problem getting rid of 20-CRJ's, with or without the Eagle pilots on the APA list.


As far as the Eagle pilots opnion, I am sure this is just because of lack of knowledge on the issue. Since nothing official has come out of the negotiations, their is nothing to offer the Eagle pilots. But from what I understand the Eagle ALPA MEC has supported the proposal. Rumors tend to get blown out of proportion, does anyone honestly think that the Eagle MEC will bring a lose/lose deal up to its membership for a vote?

 

[justApilot]

G4G5,
Good posts amigo.

 

[Lumber Yak]

6'7" headroom?

We get your point, but that figure is waaaay wrong. You won't find 6'7" headroom in an ERJ - far from it. Otherwise very good points.

 

[deceptibum]

proposal

Good points I agree. However, if you listened to the Eagle ALPA MEC hotline, our officers disagree with parts of the proposal. The most obvious one detested by all eagle pilots is the ability for mainline to hire above eagle pilots into mainline fleet.

 

[G4G5]

I agree the APA should not be looking to hire ahead of the Eagle pilots IF their is one list but nobody is asking me.

IMHO this is to alow mgt to cut back on the number of training cycles. I don't think the APA cares(no pilot ever cares where the number behind him/her comes from) but my bet is that mgt does. They are always complaining about the number of training cycles that one 777 ca retiring creates. This is one way to cut back on training cycles. It's not a bad deal for the Eagle pilots IF the flow through is improved. Make it a guranteed ratio that allows for constant movement and folks won't care as much. Let's be realistic the current flow through stinks. Without one list it will only get worse, almost non existant if AA moves towards the above 75,000# ERJ's

BUT if the Eagle pilots were offered a 1:1 ratio then it would be so bad(it would be better then what you have now which is what we are after) One new hire and one Eagle pilot for every class.

Ex
A class of 30 new hires would have 15 from Eagle and 15 off the street. Make the 15 Eagle guys senior because they are AMR employees. It may not be perfect but it's far better then anything out their. I am sure the two unions have a better plan, their has to be something that will apease both sides and I am sure AA mgt has an acceptable ratio that will allow them to optimize the school house.

Again let's be realistic. This is not worth voting No over. Because, we have not seen the end of the furloughs(925 out). At 40 a month, it will take over 2 years just to get everybody back and flying. By the time we are hiring off the street again, we will 3-5 year away and looking at another contract. Except with the next contract the Eagle pilots will have a vote/say on what's important.

What's the hotline phone number?

Yes I said 6'7" cabin. That's why I provided the link to the Embraer web site. The ERJ 195 also has real overhead bins along with 1800 mile range and room for upto 110 pax.

Let's see do you think that an RJ capable of flying DFW/ORD/STL to anywhere in the greater 48 would interest AA mgt? Especially if it was a single type available in the 70/90/100/110 seat category. Perfect for the above 50 and less then the MD80's 129 pax.

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?&aircraft_genericsearch=Embraer 170

 

[bluesideup1]

What you don't understand we already have 50% of all american new hire classes for the next 7 years. That is what we got with the flow through. We have over 350 pilots at Eagle with AA numbers already and another 500 that are eligable and able to flow throught once hiring resumes, plus an average of 8-15 a month that will become qualified. We are guaranteed a min of 50% of new hire classes at AA. So there is no reason that any eagle pilot would accept someone junior to them coming into a piece of equipment that has better pay and schedules. If there is truely to be one list then that will never fly.

 

[Rick1128]

one list

The one list propaganda is just that propaganda. If you really look at the proposal, there are two lists. Mainline and Communter. If there were really one list, everyone would start at commuter and work their way upward. The lists would be merged in a manner acceptable to the major of both groups. NOT like what happened to the TWA folks.

This proposal is way too one sided. if there is to be true flow-through, then it needs to be total. Look down the line at this proposal. Put yourself in the place of the senior F/O on the commuter side. Eight years at the company and bid an RJ Captain slot. Mainline is slowing down some. When the bids are awarded, your name is not on the list. Every name on the list is a forloughed mainline pilot, all with three years or less at the company. Now what are your feelings toward mainline and the one list that got shoved down your throut?

Could it happen. The way the proposal is written, YES. And yes, there are issues with training costs. But there will be very long term reactions to this event. It will effect AMR/AA for decades. So ALL parties effected, MUST be actively involved. And the agreement needs to be one that is reasonably aceptable to ALL parties.

 

[throttlejockey]

This proposal is not much better than the current flow through agreement.

In order for it to be worthwhile for the most junior eagle pilot (who nobody at the APA seems to care about) you have to have ONE LIST. Nobody should be able to be hired in front of him PERIOD.

Sure, I can understand the method in which you can recall pilots from furlough can be negotiated, but hiring in front of that must junior eagle pilot is BS.

If the APA (and ALPA) really cares about the future of its membership it will focus on how to best protect the most JUNIOR person at each respective company, and not the most senior. But, since the folks that run these unions are usually the most senior guys, they have forgotten what its like to be at the bottom and they just don't have a CLUE.

Your training cycle argument is hogwash. With the proposed reduction in aircraft fleet types, and the judicious use of seat-locks, you can reduce the training cycle considerably.

The current proposal is a one-sided document. I am sure that it will be a long time before it will be acceptable to all parties, if ever.

 

[G4G5]

The fleet types argument is the reason why mgt wants two lists. Does anyone really think the APA cares where the new hires go. I am on the list and I agree they should go to the bottom BUT the fleet types are still too many. Even with the reduction you still have 777, A300(if they aren't gone by now they are staying), 767/757, 737, MD80. That's still 5 training cycles that one retirement generates. Look at 2005-2015 retirements. Mgt is concerned if you add ERJ170, ERJ145 and ATR 72 to the fleet type mix, training costs will spike. The size of the aircraft has little to do with the operational costs with the simulator and training.

The current flow through stinks when I was hired my class had 40 off the street guys and no Eagle pilots. How does that happen? You can tell me numbers but we all know that's not the way it works. We need a flow thorugh that actually allows folks to flow though. Not this wait 2 years stuff. I have 200 Eagle guys senior to me, funny thing is they are not getting mainline pay or bennies and I am. How many years of retirement will these guys lose out on now? What happens to the over 50 folks? Why because the flow through stinks. So if we can fix it, then it's better for the Eagle guys, right?

Anyone want to take the chance that what happened at CAL/DAL won't happen at AMR? Then talk to me about a flow through and one list. If the Eagle guys don't want on the list their is a chance that things could get worse. Who else besides AA has any sort of flow through? I don't know enough about the flow through portion of the contract to know if it could get worse. One thing for sure, selling Executive and reverse code sharing won't help it any.

AMR will not operate the RJ70 on one list and the RJ90 on another. They are not about to have two sets of pilots who are capable of flying the same equipment(you want to know where the money is coming for raises). Two sets of sims, work rules , maintenance, yada yada. The RJ90 flying goes to the APA(over 75K) so where do you think the RJ70 flying will go? Or is it eaiser to just sell/trade the 20 aircraft, because you can get what you paid for them start fresh with the ERJ170's. Either way Eagle winds up with nothing.

No RJ70, no pay raise, no STL flying, No pay raise, Nada.

So vote, No. Or ask yourself is it better then what we have now?

 

[pilotyip]

Reality

some good posts here, looks like a dose of reality is setting into the process.

 

[deceptibum]

Eagles ALPA hotline 1800-575-ALPA

there is more on the hotline, but this is the only piece pertaining to the union view on the proposal....


This is Dave Ryter with the Chairman’s Hotline for Saturday, December 21st, 2002.



As most of you are already aware, yesterday, the APA proposal to combine the AA and Eagle pilot groups was made available on the internet. This proposal is the APA’s proposal. It is not a negotiated product between your MEC and the APA and, in fact, your MEC is not in agreement with some of the approaches suggested. It is important to remember that the APA’s proposal is a concept and an opening position which they have asked the Company to consider during the next two weeks. As always, in negotiations, an opening position often bears little resemblance to the final product. We expect that during the next two weeks, AMR management will evaluate this proposal and respond to the APA with their concerns and possibly a counterproposal. If there is an indication from AMR management that there is value in continuing a dialogue on this proposal, there will not only be occasion for your MEC negotiators to participate in this process but we will demand a seat at the negotiating table to protect our interests as they apply to our members and our aircraft. The MEC has already received much feedback from you regarding the APA’s position and I urge all pilots who have not already, to read this proposal and provide feedback to their LEC representatives. Your opinions, concerns and questions will provide valuable input to the MEC and the Negotiating Committee. Finally, remember that this is only a proposal, open for consideration by all parties and as such is a starting point. Your MEC will keep you informed as the dialogue continues.

 

[Draginass]

Let the negotiators do their job before you get your panties in a twist. This isn't a two way process . . . it's a THREE way process that makes it even more complicated. AMR isn't going to go for it unless it saves them money and buys some labor peace.

If you want to sabotage it, go ahead and start yelling, lighting-up the torches and getting out the pitchforks.

IMHO, AE ALPA guys have little leverage. Your work is being contracted out as we speak and AMR has you by the short ones with that dumb contract signed in '97. The current "flow-thru" is a farce (there were 2 out of 50 in my class, considerably short of 50%). Only the APA has some leverage with the ASM cap and no furlough clauses . . . and even then, that's not ironclad.

Let the negotiators do their work and let's see what they come up with without giving AMR the impression that there's squabbling.

 

[eaglefly]

YOU are MISTAKEN.

Eagle ALPA DOES have leverage.

We have CONTRACTUAL RIGHTS to the airframes and routes we CURRENTLY fly.

ANY transfer of these operations (current) MUST be in accordance with our Collective Bargaing Agreement (unless out MEC AND the pilot group agree to negotiated changes).

Our contract states clearly that any transfer of operations must include our contract which has a seniority list AND method of filling vacancies.

Neither the APA nor AMR can unilaterally abrogate these provisions in our CBA.

PERIOD.

There is also language regarding mergers with both ALPA and Non-ALPA carriers.

In a nutshell, if no agreement on seniority is reached it goes to arbitration in accordance with the ALLEGHENY-MOHAWK labor protective provisions (the most feared two words at the APA headquarters).

-Seniroity to be determined by a "fair and EQUITABLE manner".
-NO "system flush".
-NO transfer of operations UNTIL seniority has been agreed on.

In any case this is NOT a "one list" proposal. In fact Eagle F/O's dont even GET a mainline seniority number until making "small jet" captain(many,many years)

It is a proposal that would allow APA to (attempt) gain control of ALL of Eagle's aircraft while at the same time offering a "flow-through" to mainline (only SOME of future mainline vacancies) and unilaterally disregarding our contractual rights.

Yes, the APA can ask for the world, but it can't be denied that their first inclination is a proposal that is heinously one-sided and attempts to screw the pilots at Eagle.

The bottom line is that unless the Eagle MEC and the pilots agree, APA will never be succesful in strongarming our current planes and routes.

We are not TWA. We are not in bankruptsy and there is no legal "end run" around our contract a'la TWA.

However, I believe it is all mute. AMR's response on JAN 6, will be a litany of reasons why it is not economically feasible. In fact, Carty will need to cut mainline costs close to United to be competitive. UAL pilots are staring a 29% pay-cut or else scenario.

What this proposal DOES do is show that the APA WILL screw the Eagle pilots as a matter of preferable choice.

How unfortunate (and ultimately unsuccessful).

 

[deceptibum]

I'm not trying to sabotage anything. I'm just pointing out that our pilot group is not too thrilled with what has been presented in front of them. Are we excited about the possibility of a merge? Sure. But this is not a merge. It is basically what we have now, but APA gets the RJs. I'm not against any one person or the APA as a whole. I believe a "merge" is long overdue; however, in essence this proposal is still 2 airlines. By saying we have no leverage, that is also untrue. Not to start any fights, but if you look at the current industry trend, mainline needs the regional more than vice versa.

 

[Celicapilot]

From an internal source of AMR Eagle management a few days ago AA plans to start more furloughs at the rate of 50 per month until the red ink goes. Maybe that's why APA is so eager to get the eagle guys in the list.

 

[eaglefly]

Actually, AMR has only about 400 more furloughs CURRENTLY scheduled through about late spring. Total 1400.

But, Carty will look for BIG givebacks in pay, work rules and SCOPE (compete with UAL). These more efficient work rules will allow more trimming of pilots at mainline. The future for the bottom 1/3 is bleak. The rest of the bottom half will be F/O's at 20-30% LESS for many years.

Ask ANY APA officer where the "baseball arbitration" situation is going when congress starts next month.

He'll confirm "front burner".

Bush. Republican Congress.

Connect the dots.

 

[G4G5]

Originally posted by eaglefly

YOU are MISTAKEN.
Eagle ALPA DOES have leverage.

G4G5
No, you are mistaken, you don't have leverage, otherwise you would have been invited to the table.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We have CONTRACTUAL RIGHTS to the airframes and routes we CURRENTLY fly.

ANY transfer of these operations (current) MUST be in accordance with our Collective Bargaing Agreement (unless out MEC AND the pilot group agree to negotiated changes).

Our contract states clearly that any transfer of operations must include our contract which has a seniority list AND method of filling vacancies.

Neither the APA nor AMR can unilaterally abrogate these provisions in our CBA.

PERIOD.

G4G5
First off
Routes can be transfered. It happens all the time from Mainline to Eagle. Remember, that was the orignal purpose to have a regional carrier. To feed the mainline AND to build up routes for mainline. Routes can't be sold or transfered to another airline like Comair. AA mainline doesn't count.

Secondly
Do you think that AA wants more then 20 CRJ20's? Yes. Knowing this do yo think that they want an aircraft for the 90-120 pax market? Yes. Knowing this and knowing that the current AA Scope clause gives ALL flying above 75,000# to AA mainline, what do you think will happen to the 20 CRJ70's? I am waiting?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


There is also language regarding mergers with both ALPA and Non-ALPA carriers.

In a nutshell, if no agreement on seniority is reached it goes to arbitration in accordance with the ALLEGHENY-MOHAWK labor protective provisions (the most feared two words at the APA headquarters).

-Seniroity to be determined by a "fair and EQUITABLE manner".
-NO "system flush".
-NO transfer of operations UNTIL seniority has been agreed on.


G4G5
Wrong! Who do you think AMR is selling Eagle to? The APA? Both Eagle and AA mainline are strategic business units of the AMR corporation. AMR owns both Eagle and AA mainline. This is not AA purchasing TWA, nothing like it. This is AMR doing what it wants with it assets. Your argument only holds up if AMR sells Eagle to another airline, that's not happening. Their is no sale, so no Allegheny-Mohawak provisions apply.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



In any case this is NOT a "one list" proposal. In fact Eagle F/O's dont even GET a mainline seniority number until making "small jet" captain(many,many years)

It is a proposal that would allow APA to (attempt) gain control of ALL of Eagle's aircraft while at the same time offering a "flow-through" to mainline (only SOME of future mainline vacancies) and unilaterally disregarding our contractual rights.

Yes, the APA can ask for the world, but it can't be denied that their first inclination is a proposal that is heinously one-sided and attempts to screw the pilots at Eagle.

G4G5
Please be VERY specific on how you are going to get screwed. Use facts. Who other then the APA even has for a flow through, not, DAL, UAL, CAL, or NWA. Humm, and this proposal could even make it better.......
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The bottom line is that unless the Eagle MEC and the pilots agree, APA will never be succesful in strongarming our current planes and routes.

We are not TWA. We are not in bankruptsy and there is no legal "end run" around our contract a'la TWA.

However, I believe it is all mute. AMR's response on JAN 6, will be a litany of reasons why it is not economically feasible. In fact, Carty will need to cut mainline costs close to United to be competitive. UAL pilots are staring a 29% pay-cut or else scenario.

G4G5
Really and you think that the APA will be giving back any money when the Delta pilots are the highest paid? It will be EXTREMLY difficult for Carty to come to the AA pilots and ask for wage concessions when he already has a 20% advantage over Delta. Oh yeah we also make less then NWA too. So unless you are bankrupt, you make more then us. PS we have been operating without a contract or a raise for a year and a half.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What this proposal DOES do is show that the APA WILL screw the Eagle pilots as a matter of preferable choice.

How unfortunate (and ultimately unsuccessful).

G4G5
I don't see how you are getting screwed but maybe you can tell us. Please keep in mind two simple facts.

One:
Carty has been very clear that he WILL NOT furlough 1000 Eagle pilots in order to recall AA mainline pilots to do the same job.

Two:
The APA has this little thing called Scope. We get anything above 75,000#'s, CRJ90's or the entire ERJ 170/195 fleet. The reason why you are not at the table is because you don't have anything that resembles a scope clause in your contract.

Oh by the way how were you planning on getting a pay raise, (upto Comair) with your contract(when's it come up)? Or eliminate reverse code sharing and get back the STL feed? Or stop the sale of Executive? Or get the company to buy any more CRJ70's(ASM's)?

I'm waiting..............

Knowing Fact one and two to be true. How do the AA mainline pilots benefit from this?

 

[G4G5]

From an internal source of AMR Eagle management a few days ago AA plans to start more furloughs at the rate of 50 per month until the red ink goes. Maybe that's why APA is so eager to get the eagle guys in the list.

G4G5
Currently AA has 929 pilots on furlough

The company has announced 392 pilots additional pilot furloughs for 2003. Of which 90 pilots will be furloughed on January 1.

32 pilots will be furloughed on January 31. Which leaves 280 left to be furloughed at an undisclosed rate. So 50 a month is not unlikely, that takes us into July. Let's hope it stops their.


IMHO the APA is in a rush to get the Eagle pilots on the list for two reasons.

One:
To stop reverse code sharing. From here on in all 392 are former TWA pilots, and approx 600 after that, if it goes that deep. The APA would love to save some of these folks their jobs. How can they do that? Get back all of the flying that Chitaqua(sp) and Trans States are doing out of STL.

The given is that all of the 70 seat and above flying will go to AA mainline. Once AA determines which aircraft it wants to use in the 70-120 seat range. This new deal can set the framework for future aircraft and get these folks flying again. AA needs to do something because they recently announced the acceleration of the retirement of the F100 fleet. The can't operate with just 20-CRJ70's and nothing else between the ERJ145(50 seats) and the MD80(129 seats).

Two;
Stop the sale of Executive. The APA realizes that AMR could eaisly divest itself of Eagle(see DAL and Comair/ASA). If the stock market was better. Carty would have sold 49% of Eagle in an IPO, kept the cash and the 51% controlling interest. But.. in todays economy there is very little market for an reginonal airline IPO. Especially considering that anyone interested can get in the game by providing DIP financing to UAL or U.

 

[MachPi]

G4G5 hit the nail on the head as far as the reasons why APA is gung-ho about combining the lists. It's scope, baby; nothing nefarious about that, just good cya and looking out for the membership.

So much for that. My concern as an ex-mil APA member is this: if the lists are combined, what on earth would possess someone from the military to apply to AA? They'd go directly to Eagle, and a few years later, maybe, make it to ML. In other words, they'd have to spend time in two different 'minor leagues' before making it to the big time. Would ex-mils open themselves up to that?

The answer, of course, is that NO military refugee would apply to AA. Just wouldn't happen. Frankly, I don't want to see that.

I've flown with many civilian-track captains who are very good at what they do. That's beside my point, which is that a mix of civ and ex-mil pilots is good for every major. To be the first major to cut off the ex-mil flow would be a huge mistake.

AA has to have some mechanism to draw ex-mil pilots directly into mainline flying. Otherwise, they will ALL flow elsewhere: to Delta, SWA, NW et al. That would be a colossal error on American's part, and APA (and ALPA) should make sure that doesn't happen.