To ALL UNITED pilots courtesy of ALL UAX carriers and their pilots

[imacdog]

Sonny, second time I have asked. Why not get the glitch fixed?

 

[skypine69]

The average UAL line pilot has no idea what the UAL JSC has been up to in the last 1-2 years.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Sonny, second time I have asked. Why not get the glitch fixed?

MEC Jumpseat Comm. Reminder on UAX Carrier Jumpseat Situation
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]MEC Jumpseat Committee Chairman Captain Bob Spadea would like to advise all United pilots that commute on our UAX carriers that you may be receiving a letter from the respective carrier's Jumpseat Committee the next time you request a jumpseat from the captain. In summary, this letter issues an ultimatum to the UALMEC and the Jumpseat Committee to resolve several jumpseat issues pertaining to computer programming software that sorts UAX pilots for jumpseats on UAX flights. According to the letter, if these problems are not resolved by July 31, 2008, jumpseats will be DENIED to United pilots. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]The aforementioned problems have been identified and cannot be easily resolved due to the magnitude of the UAX operation. Some of these issues require software rewrites, manpower assignments and additional funding. In a series of face-to-face meetings between your Jumpseat Committee and the UAX jumpseat members, the parties were made fully aware of the complexity of these problems. They were also made aware of the limited resources, limited manpower and funds needed to correct these problems.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Your Jumpseat Committee is working with UA flight operations and UA management to inquire as to what alternatives can be implemented in resolving these problems. Keep in mind that we will not allow any carrier to use the jumpseat as a bargaining chip or leverage in meeting demands or forcing policies. In issuing this ultimatum to our MEC, these UAX carriers are 100% responsible for any consequences that may result from their course of action.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]The UALMEC Jumpseat Committee will update you as appropriate. [/FONT]



Sorry I didn't "JUMP" for you the last time you asked, but IF YOU READ THE ABOVE YOUR ANSWER YOU WILL FIND.

 

[skypine69]

well according to the UAX guys who have been in these meetings, the CS people said that it is an easy fix. Who are we to believe, people that fly the planes, or people that work on the computers?

 

[imacdog]

I'm willing to bet any mid-level college student could fix the software in a couple hours tops.

 

[skypine69]

why is it when the UAL JSC "requests" that all the UAX carriers adjust their JS priority it is a professional courtesy,( and when they did not get what they want, they changed the priority system on their own) but when the UAX carriers request a simple fix to the software, it is a war?

 

[bmpilot2003]

1. CS said it was an easy fix during meetings between the JSCs

2. If the UAL MEC can provide proof that its either to costly to fix, or there is not enough man power to rectify the problem the UAX carriers would back down.

Its clear that in official communications between the JSCs that UAX carriers did not agree with the UAL JSC and were subsequently moved from "K" to "L" priority because they did not agree with the UAL JSC taking priority over all UAX jumpseats . The priority shift gave TSA and Go-Jets priority over Skywest, Mesa, and Chitacqua(sp) on their jumpseats. The change in priority was made in a month or two. Which is why i too believe that it will not take significant money or man power to redo the priorites of the carriers.

Giving Go-jets and TSA priorty over skywest, mesa, and chitacqua on their own aircraft is just not right. I trust individual United pilots when it comes to jumpseat issues and allowing pilots priority own their aircraft. But if Go-jets is at the gate too, i dont trust them further than i could throw them. I'm also not to trusting of TSA now either since they obviously don't have a problem with stealing proity of the jumpseat.

 

[Newpilot2b]

Hey ALPO fix the problem! what 2% of pilot pay isn't enough? For Gods sack we launched men to the Moon and Back 39 years ago with a computer that is about is smart as your cell phone.
Stop the Bit#%ing you Liberal Obama Supprts and CHANGE the program. (the letter got your attention didn't?!? that was the whole point suckaaaa)

 

[IBNAV8R]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]"The aforementioned problems have been identified and cannot be easily resolved due to the magnitude of the UAX operation. Some of these issues require software rewrites, manpower assignments and additional funding. In a series of face-to-face meetings between your Jumpseat Committee and the UAX jumpseat members, the parties were made fully aware of the complexity of these problems. They were also made aware of the limited resources, limited manpower and funds needed to correct these problems."

Funny. Seems there were plenty of funds available to make the recent changes to UAX priorities, i.e., K1 - Go-Jets, TSA; K2 SKW, et al.; L - Mesa, et al.

Seems everyone here agrees what the priority SHOULD be. All this hubbub, then, is over a few keystrokes to change the software to what we all agree is right.

So, after approaching UAL MGT and UALPA MEC over such a length of time; And basically been told by both to piss-off; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]I'm curious to know what other diplomatic measures might be suggested.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
[/FONT]

 

[Shrek]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]"The aforementioned problems have been identified and cannot be easily resolved due to the magnitude of the UAX operation. Some of these issues require software rewrites, manpower assignments and additional funding. In a series of face-to-face meetings between your Jumpseat Committee and the UAX jumpseat members, the parties were made fully aware of the complexity of these problems. They were also made aware of the limited resources, limited manpower and funds needed to correct these problems."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Funny. Seems there were plenty of funds available to make the recent changes to UAX priorities, i.e., K1 - Go-Jets, TSA; K2 SKW, et al.; L - Mesa, et al.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Seems everyone here agrees what the priority SHOULD be. All this hubbub, then, is over a few keystrokes to change the software to what we all agree is right.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]So, after approaching UAL MGT and UALPA MEC over such a length of time; And basically been told by both to piss-off; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]I'm curious to know what other diplomatic measures might be suggested.[/FONT]

Now when exactly did the UALMEC tell you to piss off then?

This would not of helped anybody if this would have gone forward. It already has gotten some blood to boil over at UAL.

Remember - if you are in a fight with your wife and you "win" the argument but don't get punani for a week......did you really win?

 

[Shrek]

Hey ALPO fix the problem! what 2% of pilot pay isn't enough? For Gods sack we launched men to the Moon and Back 39 years ago with a computer that is about is smart as your cell phone.
Stop the Bit#%ing you Liberal Obama Supprts and CHANGE the program. (the letter got your attention didn't?!? that was the whole point suckaaaa)

Bad precident to set there Newpilot.

 

[bmpilot2003]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]


Funny. Seems there were plenty of funds available to make the recent changes to UAX priorities, i.e., K1 - Go-Jets, TSA; K2 SKW, et al.; L - Mesa, et al.
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
[/FONT]

SkyWest is also L.

 

[bmpilot2003]

Now when exactly did the UALMEC tell you to piss off then?

July 1st, 2007. This is the date SkyWest, Mesa, Chitaco were all given the L priority. Essentially kicking sand in their faces. For one year now the UAX JSC have been trying to negotiate to no avail.

 

[bmpilot2003]

Hey ALPO fix the problem! what 2% of pilot pay isn't enough? For Gods sack we launched men to the Moon and Back 39 years ago with a computer that is about is smart as your cell phone.
Stop the Bit#%ing you Liberal Obama Supprts and CHANGE the program. (the letter got your attention didn't?!? that was the whole point suckaaaa)

Your not helping go slither back under that rock you came from.

 

[IBNAV8R]

July 1st, 2007. This is the date SkyWest, Mesa, Chitaco were all given the L priority. Essentially kicking sand in their faces. For one year now the UAX JSC have been trying to negotiate to no avail.

It would appear "manpower and resources" were not so limited that they couldn't make yet another change.

 

[Shrek]

July 1st, 2007. This is the date SkyWest, Mesa, Chitaco were all given the L priority. Essentially kicking sand in their faces. For one year now the UAX JSC have been trying to negotiate to no avail.

From what I understand it was UNITED's computer issue that is really the problem here. I can understand your frustrations with it and I do NOT condone the very few UAL pilots that took advantage of the "glitch" to get onboard a UAX airplane with employees of that same airline waiting for the same seat.

I just think there MUST have been another way to go about it - to write a inflammatory letter to all the UAL Pilots was not a smart move.

With 950 of us on the street by the end of next year (minus mitigation which is ongoing) - it hit a nerve with alot of them. I also believe that there are tools on both sides. I have heard of UAL pilots thinking (it has UAL paint so I MUST have priority complexes). On the other hand I have also heard of stories of UAX pilots bragging about their "Guppy-Killer" to mainline pilots (who were guppy drivers no less).

The absolute worst thing we can do is allow us to be pitted against each other - where only MGT wins.

Hopefully this will get resolved quickly and then promptly forgotten - we ALL have bigger fish to fry in the near future.

 

[joesmiley]

Walk up to the gate. Take some responsibility. Each UAX carrier capt needs to take some responsibility. Each UAL commuter should follow J/S courtesy. In a happy world it would work...did I mention its not a happy world.

Heres to hoping for a resolution by Aug. 1st.

 

[Bako Cap]

Walk up to the gate. Take some responsibility. Each UAX carrier capt needs to take some responsibility. Each UAL commuter should follow J/S courtesy. In a happy world it would work...did I mention its not a happy world.

Heres to hoping for a resolution by Aug. 1st.

Call your UAL MEC. Take some responsibility. Each UAL pilot needs to take some responsibility. The UAL MEC should follow J/S courtesy. In a happy world the UAL MEC would fix the glitch...Sadly you did mention that it is not a happy world.

Ditto on a resolution. Soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Freeze_gopher]

Shrek,

I agree with you 100%. The letters content and timing are terrible. It's supposed to be an information campaign and a request for help, that gets lost in the ultimatum that ends the letter. The issue beyond that is that this isn't a fight we picked. I was aware of the issue, but was never informed that this was an escalating confrontation. We were told that discussions were ongoing but the existence and content of this letter were a complete surprise. I do commute and have always been treated with respect by UAL crews. It's ok for us to discuss differences, but to punish or threaten other pilot groups is counter productive.
Ultimately, what was really an inconvenience may turn into something that causes years of ill will. This career is hard enough, I don't need that.

 

[Marko Ramius]

July 1st, 2007. This is the date SkyWest, Mesa, Chitaco were all given the L priority. Essentially kicking sand in their faces. For one year now the UAX JSC have been trying to negotiate to no avail.

You know this isn't the first time jumpseat priorities and the like got switched around and screwed up in UA's computers for periods of time. Remember the drama about exclusive vs. non-exclusive UAX carriers and the resulting shuffles? Funny thing is none of us acted like 2 year olds about it and it got fixed a lot smoother with a lot less ruffled feathers. This has zero chance of getting resolved amicably, no matter who 'wins' as we'll likely be reading about random jumpseat star wars over this for several years to come.

 

[dispatchguy]

As opposed to FIXING the problem?

I was talking to a friend of mine, who is a UAL Dispatcher about this, and his comment was "Why should we fix this issue when no UAL employees will benefit?"

Umm, cuz it is the right thing to do?

Umm, because the current jumpseat agreements and the OMC Cards that currently come out of Apollo arent in sync?

Umm, because nearly every other major that I am aware of has their systems programmed correctly?

What makes UAL so friggin special...?

That arrogance is the reason that I dont OMC on UA if I can at all costs avoid it. He also made the comment that more UAX on UA OMCs will get bumped than UA on UAX if the "ban" goes through. I responded that UAX goes more places than UAL, and UAL doesnt go anywhere that some other "more jumpseat friendly" carrier goes that I am aware of. There are many places one can get only on UAX.

I'm all for captains authority; but whats wrong with having a system that works like its supposed to?

If the situation was reversed, and UAX was getting to pull a fast one on UAL mainline, there would be some severe hell to pay.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Colgan pilots cannot fully reciprocate the jumpseat with UAL pilots since some of their a/c don't even have a jumpseat. How many of their Saabs are weight restricted and can't take a jumpseater?

Mesa also has a/c with no jumpseat and a/c prone to weight restriction, so they can't fully reciprocate either.

One of my friends at United says they have the jumpseat built into the BOW on ALL of their a/c so that a jumpseater can never be bumped for weight and balance. How many United pilots have been bumped off of express jumpseats for w&b vs. express pilots being bumped off their own jumpseats because of this system? I'm guessing the scales are tilted heavily to one side as there are most likely very few a&& holes that would actually go along with bumping an express guy off his own jumpseat.

Mesa, Skywest, Shuttle, Colgan also fly for multiple majors...on express flights for other majors, do United pilots get priority? I personally have been bumped off of a Delta flight for a CHQ jumpseater who flew in the USAir system.

FedEx and UPS for years after 9/11 could not reciprocate their jumpseat. Delta used to limit the jumpseaters on every flight when most airlines allowed unlimited. No letters were handed to any of these carriers.

I'm not saying all of this to argue the issue, I'm just pointing out things to think about. My argument is about the way the issue is being handled.

Regardless, if there is a problem with the jumpseat software at United, then I think it should be fixed. But, threatening the United pilot group into fixing it is probably an extremely poor strategical decision. This letter may have an excellent argument and may be 100% correct, but you have to remember that you are handing it to another human being. That guy may be getting furloughed for the second time while your carrier grows (the fault of neither pilot group). When that guy who's life is not going so well at the moment gets a letter with an ultimatum on it is probably not going to be inclined to help your cause. One of the prime rules in any negotiation is never to use ultimatums as it brings emotions into the issue.

This letter will attempt to back the UAL MEC into a very public position on this issue. If they fix the issue now, they will be seen by everyone as weak and willing to roll over when being challenged by the UAX pilots. If they don't fix the problem then they will blame the UAX pilots and the only people who will lose are the commuters on both sides.

If this letter needed to be given to UAL pilots to get them educated on the issue, it would have done that perfectly without an ultimatum on it. My guess is that a lot of UAL pilots WILL be calling their MEC about this issue, but they will be not be calling to argue the UAX case. They will most likely tell their MEC not to back down one inch because if they do, many pilots will see this as legitimizing using the jumpseat as a bargaining chip.

Keep in mind also that when stating that the UAL MEC is the problem, you are only hearing one side of the story. I'm not saying the UAL MEC is not part of the problem, but I'm sure there are other factors involved. The UAL MEC can barely get their management to talk to them about furlough mitigation, so I'm sure their management is not helpful on this issue either. Just like the DL/NW MEC communications, what you hear about what is going on usually is at least slanted to one side's viewpoint.

Again, the facts of the letter aside, I simply disagree with the way this is being handled. Good luck to both parties involved in getting it resolved.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Colgan pilots cannot fully reciprocate the jumpseat with UAL pilots since some of their a/c don't even have a jumpseat. How many of their Saabs are weight restricted and can't take a jumpseater?

Mesa also has a/c with no jumpseat and a/c prone to weight restriction, so they can't fully reciprocate either.

One of my friends at United says they have the jumpseat built into the BOW on ALL of their a/c so that a jumpseater can never be bumped for weight and balance. How many United pilots have been bumped off of express jumpseats for w&b vs. express pilots being bumped off their own jumpseats because of this system? I'm guessing the scales are tilted heavily to one side as there are most likely very few a&& holes that would actually go along with bumping an express guy off his own jumpseat.

Mesa, Skywest, Shuttle, Colgan also fly for multiple majors...on express flights for other majors, do United pilots get priority? I personally have been bumped off of a Delta flight for a CHQ jumpseater who flew in the USAir system.

FedEx and UPS for years after 9/11 could not reciprocate their jumpseat. Delta used to limit the jumpseaters on every flight when most airlines allowed unlimited. No letters were handed to any of these carriers.

I'm not saying all of this to argue the issue, I'm just pointing out things to think about. My argument is about the way the issue is being handled.

Regardless, if there is a problem with the jumpseat software at United, then I think it should be fixed. But, threatening the United pilot group into fixing it is probably an extremely poor strategical decision. This letter may have an excellent argument and may be 100% correct, but you have to remember that you are handing it to another human being. That guy may be getting furloughed for the second time while your carrier grows (the fault of neither pilot group). When that guy who's life is not going so well at the moment gets a letter with an ultimatum on it is probably not going to be inclined to help your cause. One of the prime rules in any negotiation is never to use ultimatums as it brings emotions into the issue.

This letter will attempt to back the UAL MEC into a very public position on this issue. If they fix the issue now, they will be seen by everyone as weak and willing to roll over when being challenged by the UAX pilots. If they don't fix the problem then they will blame the UAX pilots and the only people who will lose are the commuters on both sides.

If this letter needed to be given to UAL pilots to get them educated on the issue, it would have done that perfectly without an ultimatum on it. My guess is that a lot of UAL pilots WILL be calling their MEC about this issue, but they will be not be calling to argue the UAX case. They will most likely tell their MEC not to back down one inch because if they do, many pilots will see this as legitimizing using the jumpseat as a bargaining chip.

Keep in mind also that when stating that the UAL MEC is the problem, you are only hearing one side of the story. I'm not saying the UAL MEC is not part of the problem, but I'm sure there are other factors involved. The UAL MEC can barely get their management to talk to them about furlough mitigation, so I'm sure their management is not helpful on this issue either. Just like the DL/NW MEC communications, what you hear about what is going on usually is at least slanted to one side's viewpoint.

Again, the facts of the letter aside, I simply disagree with the way this is being handled. Good luck to both parties involved in getting it resolved.

EXCELLENT POST

We could all learn a lot from reading this....

 

[Newpilot2b]

OK you UAL ALPO guys are right and we UEX guys are wrong!!!!
Happy Now?
NO Realy this is a first time you UAL ALPO guys (like PBR here) believe your Managment now???? Thats funny, at least you guys are working together. yea think you can run an airline now?
Little less time typing here on FI and a little more time sending an email or making a phone call and this link would stop....but NO, the old pissing contest.
JUST CHANGE THE CODE DUDES!!!!

 

[IBNAV8R]

I keep seeing how the MEC and UAL don't talk and, how "they" are unwilling to expend funds and resources to making a change.

These arguments just don't wash. THERE WAS JUST SUCH A CHANGE ON JULY 1ST. Explain that!!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

UAL MEC to its pilots....

We got face time with the company next week...

Should we work to resolve...

A. The UAX jumpseat threat?

B. Furlough mitigation?

 

[bmpilot2003]

You know this isn't the first time jumpseat priorities and the like got switched around and screwed up in UA's computers for periods of time. Remember the drama about exclusive vs. non-exclusive UAX carriers and the resulting shuffles? Funny thing is none of us acted like 2 year olds about it and it got fixed a lot smoother with a lot less ruffled feathers. This has zero chance of getting resolved amicably, no matter who 'wins' as we'll likely be reading about random jumpseat star wars over this for several years to come.

Yeah i do, unfortunately this little problem over a 2 year period has gone from minor to serious. The decision to write this letter was not made in day. After the final denial by the UAL MEC it took 2 months to pursue this issue with this letter.

 

[dispatchguy]

From a friend at UAL...

MEC Jumpseat Comm. Reminder on UAX Carrier Jumpseat Situation

MEC Jumpseat Committee Chairman Captain Bob Spadea would like to advise all United pilots that commute on our UAX carriers that you may be receiving a letter from the respective carrier's Jumpseat Committee the next time you request a jumpseat from the captain. In summary, this letter issues an ultimatum to the UALMEC and the Jumpseat Committee to resolve several jumpseat issues pertaining to computer programming software that sorts UAX pilots for jumpseats on UAX flights. According to the letter, if these problems are not resolved by July 31, 2008, jumpseats will be DENIED to United pilots.

The aforementioned problems have been identified and cannot be easily resolved due to the magnitude of the UAX operation. Some of these issues require software rewrites, manpower assignments and additional funding. In a series of face-to-face meetings between your Jumpseat Committee and the UAX jumpseat members, the parties were made fully aware of the complexity of these problems. They were also made aware of the limited resources, limited manpower and funds needed to correct these problems.

Your Jumpseat Committee is working with UA flight operations and UA management to inquire as to what alternatives can be implemented in resolving these problems. Keep in mind that we will not allow any carrier to use the jumpseat as a bargaining chip or leverage in meeting demands or forcing policies. In issuing this ultimatum to our MEC, these UAX carriers are 100% responsible for any consequences that may result from their course of action.

The UALMEC Jumpseat Committee will update you as appropriate.

 

[ArcticFlier]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]"The aforementioned problems have been identified and cannot be easily resolved due to the magnitude of the UAX operation. Some of these issues require software rewrites, manpower assignments and additional funding. In a series of face-to-face meetings between your Jumpseat Committee and the UAX jumpseat members, the parties were made fully aware of the complexity of these problems. They were also made aware of the limited resources, limited manpower and funds needed to correct these problems."

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Bob suffers from cranial/rectal inversion. Seems it got changed last year with little/no financial impact. Screw him. Fix the software. It would only take a pimply faced guy living his mom's basement about an hour to fix this.
[/FONT]

 

[ArcticFlier]

UAL MEC to its pilots....

We got face time with the company next week...

Should we work to resolve...

A. The UAX jumpseat threat?

B. Furlough mitigation?

Or both? Seems easy to me.