This is why the last payrates offered by NJA were "insulting."

[FamilyGuy]

what a joke.

very very few real corp jobs have worse QOL than Netjets.

most shiver when they see your a/c and say, "dang those guys work their a$$es off for nothing".

rules? whats that mean? the 10 hrs you get in the local hilton? great rules...

With how hard they run you guys you practically need NBAAx2 to even justify it. I cant think of any corp guys I know who would keep thier NBAA numbers and go to Netjets to work that great "7 and 7". forget about it.

I didnt mean to imply that the QOL is better than a corp flight dept. I would choose a non-union flight dept over a union shop any day....who wouldn't?

The point is that there are a lot of restrictions on how pilots are scheduled and used that are different and less efficient than a flight dept.

So tell me, how plentiful are these corp flight dept jobs? If they are so much better, then everyone would go there....unless they can't, because they are not readily available....

 

[WGFP48]

It took six weeks of Indoc, Sim, and then another eight weeks for check rides when I was hired. When all these picket crossers come over, that would create quite the backlog don't you think?

I don't know how many of these USAirways, Delta and United pilots are typed and current on a C-X, but I just don't see how this will work. We can't attract bottom feeders now. How will we ever attract the best and brightest?

Squonk...for once you are partially right!! It will take 6 to 8 weeks to spool up...but you are forgetting that NJA pilots will cross in droves too...there isn't a one of them that can make it on $120 a week strike benefits....when they realize how little the Teamsters are going to give them to stay out on strike, they will cross....then there will be sell offs and NJM and NJI will pick up some of the slack...so you see it can be done!!

I watched ALPA during the Eastern strike, and ALPA had commissioned Kit Darby's company FAPA to make an assement whether there were pilots who Eastern could use as replacements...FAPA only could identify less than 100 people they thought would go to work at Eastern...well in 6 months Eastern hired and trained 2800 pilots and had them on the line as 1011 Capt's, DC-9 Capt's, 727 Capt's, and every sort of F/O...It can be done!!!

As determined as the NJA pilots are to STFD, the resolve of the company and the remaining employees is even higher...WGFP48

 

[Hawkered]

It all really comes down to numbers and emotions. It's really time to temper the emotions, so we can focus on the numbers again.

Forget about hardly working in a corporate flight department; I'd go up the wall with boredom.

My feeling is that we should work efficiently and yes, quite hard, for a good days pay and then have the versatility of our schedule to enjoy time off.

 

[CapnVegetto]

what a joke.

very very few real corp jobs have worse QOL than Netjets.

most shiver when they see your a/c and say, "dang those guys work their a$$es off for nothing".

rules? whats that mean? the 10 hrs you get in the local hilton? great rules...

With how hard they run you guys you practically need NBAAx2 to even justify it. I cant think of any corp guys I know who would keep thier NBAA numbers and go to Netjets to work that great "7 and 7". forget about it.

G200 is 100% right. Even with 200% NBAA pay, I wouldn't even consider taking my CE-560 PIC currency to NJA. Why? I don't want to be gone 7 days in a row every other day.....spend 10 hours in a hotel, and work my a$$ off all day. I fly 200-400 hours a year at a corporate job. Why do I want to fly 1200 hours a year, show up at 0001L my first day, never get to spend any time where I go, be tired all the time?

You NJA guys work your a$$es off. Pay should be NBAA average. Period. I think 200% NBAA is a little greedy and unrealistic, because you also don't do a lot of stuff that corporate guys do, but NBAA avg. should be it.

 

[Diesel]

We're not asking for 200 percent of NBAA just 90 percentile of NBAA.

 

[gunfyter]

I don't think anyone flies 1200 hrs a year. My top year was about 750 and my low year was 360 (due to training delays). Normal yr is about 600... 7/7 no extending.

 

[CapnVegetto]

We're not asking for 200 percent of NBAA just 90 percentile of NBAA.

If that's the case, then there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't get it. It's time to pay the pilots. Management worried about money? Too f-ing bad. Pilots cost X amount, it's up to them to figure out how to pay X amount. Period. SWA does it.....anyone can do it. Increase efficiency, reduce waste, raise fees. That's not the pilots' job to figure out how to pay them.....it's management's. "Rape your labor" is NOT a valid business plan.

 

[Diesel]

actually i did 900hrs last year.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

If that's the case, then there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't get it. It's time to pay the pilots. Management worried about money? Too f-ing bad. Pilots cost X amount, it's up to them to figure out how to pay X amount. Period. SWA does it.....anyone can do it. Increase efficiency, reduce waste, raise fees. That's not the pilots' job to figure out how to pay them.....it's management's. "Rape your labor" is NOT a valid business plan.

Nice rant Capt... but "consensual" is more appropriate to Netjet pilots than "rape"

when one agrees and accepts to be SCREWED (and paid) like a cheap whore its consensual...

 

[GEXDriver]

We're not asking for 200 percent of NBAA just 90 percentile of NBAA.

So about $128,500.00 for a Falcon 2000 captain? And you guys max out now at what, about $95,800 on 7/7 and $115,000 on flex? That doesn't seem like too big a jump.

 

[Hawkered]

This is really not the kind of posting we want to see. As a dues paying member of IBT 1108, I would really like to see specific numbers stay behind closed doors until my elected leadership asks me to examine their endorsed Tentative Agreement.

Trial by media, slander by media or negotiating by media really isn't the direction I like to see my career going in. I find it unfortunate that both sides are not seeing the enormous damage this is doing to our product.

Guys, get back in the room. Don't drink or eat anything before you go in and stay in their until it's done with.

Crandall did this at American. He had to get a B scale going and he had to get Sabre going to deal with deregulation and every start-up that was on his turf.

We are on a precipice. We can go forward..and all get rich together all we can become the next Pan Am or USAir!

 

[Diesel]

Gex Driver-
Augh expect a post from family guy about how we're asking for the world. It's no big deal. I'm not looking to move anytime soon. Got too much on my plate right now.

Gulfstream 200, Is it rape if they use a condom? Let's get the gay out and get a pay raise.

 

[Diesel]

Guys, get back in the room. Don't drink or eat anything before you go in and stay in their until it's done with.

Which guys are you refering too? The union can sit in the room all day long but if the company isn't willing to move on it's pay how do you negotiate? The company refused to budge on their pay. The union was negotiating with themselves. Not a good idea.

 

[dukeofdub]

Which guys are you refering too? The union can sit in the room all day long but if the company isn't willing to move on it's pay how do you negotiate? The company refused to budge on their pay. The union was negotiating with themselves. Not a good idea.

It looks to many that the Company came to the table and had met their threshold with an increase in base pay that was from 23% to 30% depending on where you fell in the list. As many pilots are either on bypass pay or have had seniority increases over the years it may not be a straight 23% increase, because their automatic increases or bypass pay may have eaten into that 23% - 30% increase.

The Union has a self declaired threshold that is far above the Company threshold. As the Union has created a "threshold" that the Company does not appear to be able to meet for the Union to lower it's "threshold" to recieve the 23% increase sounds logical. How can the Company negotiate without negotiating against itself and not exceed it's "threshold?"

 

[CMHTroll]

Don't even bother

Duke, Don't bother trying to explain it to them. Their concept is pay the pilots what they want or have no company. Next time they will be asking for astronaunt wages. The Union based it's concepts on nothing more than their wants regardless of the effect on the company. The Union will never understand the concept of business, just the concept of their version of their self worth.

 

[zugzug]

What is stopping the company

from taking all the work and planes to NJI and avoiding the Union all together?

 

[Heavy Set]

Duke, Don't bother trying to explain it to them. Their concept is pay the pilots what they want or have no company. Next time they will be asking for astronaunt wages. The Union basis it's concepts on nothing more than their wants regardless of the effect on the company. The Union will never understand the concept of business, just the concept of their version of their self worth.

I find this spin hilarious. Do you know how much lower a Netjets pilot is paid vs. his counterpart in the Part 91 world (same aircraft type)? Do you? I'd like you to answer the following questions (yes or no):

1. Do you think paying a high-time Citation X Captain $55-60K per year is reasonable?

2. Do you think Sovereign or Falcon 2000 FOs requesting more than $35K per year in salary is unreasonable?

3. Do you think continuing to offer these wage levels will help recruitment of the experienced pilots NJA likes to brag about to potential owners?

Your suggestion that NJA pilots want you to pay them "anything they want" is ludicrous and another great example of spin. I have heard others on this board that 90% of the average would be appreciated. I like your use of "basis" instead of "bases." You can't fool all of us...

 

[gunfyter]

from taking all the work and planes to NJI and avoiding the Union all together?

That would be great... the company voluntarilly submitting to single carrier!

 

[Heavy Set]

Duke, Don't bother trying to explain it to them. Their concept is pay the pilots what they want or have no company. Next time they will be asking for astronaunt wages. The Union basis it's concepts on nothing more than their wants regardless of the effect on the company. The Union will never understand the concept of business, just the concept of their version of their self worth.

Hey Troll, I found this from another posting (taken from an AIN article):

According to the pilots’ union, International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT) Local 1108, NetJets put forth a proposal that “offered less than a $300 per month increase for a five-year captain.” Figures released by the union show the divide that exists between labor and management; the union seeks an annual salary of $114,156 for a fifth-year captain and $74,202 for a fifth-year first officer, equating to the 90th percentile of the NBAA Compensation and Benchmark Survey. The company’s latest proposal is $71,752 and $44,200, respectively, putting the pay in the 10th percentile of the NBAA salary survey.


Perhaps you can tell me how you expect to recruit high-time and experienced pilots with those figures? Any idea why NJA is starting to lose more and more pilots? Hmmmmm. What a joke!!!!!! I don't care if this is still a negotiation. How could anyone be "proud" to work for such a cheap organization?

I hope that anyone considering joining this company thinks long and hard about how they expect to be treated in the future... Certainly the pilot group will get zero respect and not be viewed as valued team members. I bet the average Manager at Dairy Queen (one of Warren's many other portfolio companies) earns more annually - and they get free ice cream too...

 

[TheTruthCMH]

We're not asking for 200 percent of NBAA just 90 percentile of NBAA.

How will the company and union come to an agreement about paying 90th percentile if all the fleets are based on the same pay rates? How do you break out the individual airplanes without hurting the feelings of the guys flying the 400 that have been here for a long time?

In other words, if the 90th percentile pay on the Falcon is $128K (like GEX mentioned, I don't know that it is), then do you pay the 400XP pilots the same if it's just one pay scale?

 

[gunfyter]

One payscale:

I think the guys in the Falcon get hosed... and those in the 400XP do better relative to the outside world is the answer.

Right now everybody is hosed.

 

[TheTruthCMH]

One payscale:

I think the guys in the Falcon get hosed... and those in the 400XP do better relative to the outside world is the answer.

Right now everybody is hosed.

Which plane do you or the union propose they use for the 90th percentile?

 

[dime line]

Hey Gunfyter I fly contract for a guy that owns a BeechJet 400 (no A here) who makes 100,000 salary. He flys for a family that uses the BJ as the family stationwagon. Great family as well. They don't abuse him and he has plenty of time off. Also there was a Diamond CP position in Central FL paying 98,000, but I don't know anything about that gig, could be the worst job out there but at least they pay.

 

[x402]

Which plane do you or the union propose they use for the 90th percentile?

That's a moronic question, again, surface bargining. How low can we go? They haven't gotten close to a median of the composite of the fleets. So please take your idiotic views go back to the law firm that has hired you and tell them you have failed and need a quarter to call home for a ride.

 

[linder]

actually i did 900hrs last year.

Just curious Diesel but does that 900 hours include your part time King Air job?

 

[TheTruthCMH]

That's a moronic question, again, surface bargining. How low can we go? They haven't gotten close to a median of the composite of the fleets. So please take your idiotic views go back to the law firm that has hired you and tell them you have failed and need a quarter to call home for a ride.

Why the need for the hatred? Are you losing faith? I don't belittle anyone on these boards, why do you feel the need? You don't know who I am and I don't know who you are, I am here for some open dialogue.

I was merely asking a simple question, there are some that read these boards that would truly like to know and they are IN THE KNOW.

So, nothing positive, don't say anything at all.

 

[2EASYPilot]

"In other words, if the 90th percentile pay on the Falcon is $128K (like GEX mentioned, I don't know that it is), then do you pay the 400XP pilots the same if it's just one pay scale?"

Not sure how many 5 year captains are making 128K after five years and my guess would that to be in the 90 percentile of NBAA wages would take much longer than 5 years at most 91 operations with the possible exception of the East coast. Our compensation department has chosen to not use the NBAA survey but does use the Stanton survey information. A solid 91 operation considers much more than basic pay as part of the compensation package i.e., bonuses, insurance, 401K etc. No flames please, I just would hope you are realistic in your demands otherwise happiness will be elusive.

 

[Diesel]

No it doesn't. I don't even count the king air flying. Those are gravy run trips.

The 900hrs was when I was an instructor in the U boat.

Now with the X if the plane doesn't break I'll do less than that. Some weeks though you end up flying 40hrs a week. That adds up pretty quick.

 

[gunfyter]

Which plane do you or the union propose they use for the 90th percentile?

The G-V

Actually. I favored Pay by type... but I am in a very small miniority I was shocked to discover.

Ok I saw the percentile of seniority based payscale. I am holding the same Aircraft and seat I would hold if we had a Re-bid. So it makes no difference to me.

Either way I expect to be paid NBAA Citation X-pay. Right now I am collecting less than COTA bus driver pay

 

[FlyFlyFly]

1. Do you think paying a high-time Citation X Captain $55-60K per year is reasonable?

2. Do you think Sovereign or Falcon 2000 FOs requesting more than $35K per year in salary is unreasonable?

No it is not reasonable pay. I would expect most pilots to turn down a job that would offer that kind of pay.

Problem is, there are many pilots out there that view that as acceptable, or they wouldn't accept the job in the first place.

I am continually amazed at the low pay that pilots are willing to accept at regionals and fractionals.

Why do they do it? Why do they say yes to a job that pays worse than a frickin' night manager at Quik Trip?

Why do they say yes to a job with a salary that would embarass an over the road truck driver?

Why?