This is why the last payrates offered by NJA were "insulting."

[Diesel]

Man I'm going to have to do it but family guy is right. There are a lot of corp operators (especially in the NE) that have a lot better work rules and pay then NJA has.

I see you mind working. No i'm not trying to work there. I've got to many things going on with other stuff to move jobs right now. It's not an ideal place to work but it's paying the ERAU College bills right now.

Sad part is I came here as a career. it wasn't until last recurrent did i realize how much the company hates the pilots.

 

[Hogprint]

G200 posted:

With how hard they run you guys you practically need NBAAx2 to even justify it. I cant think of any corp guys I know who would keep thier NBAA numbers and go to Netjets to work that great "7 and 7". forget about it.

I think you see the light!

 

[CapnVegetto]

If that were true, why can't NJA fill classes with all these furloughed types right now? They can't get people to go work there now, why would they be able to if everyone else were to walk?

Ok Heavy Set....if the NJA pilots want to move on "Let Them"...in the mean time..they really don't have much in the way of options...there are thousands of un-employed airline pilots looking for jobs...and much to your chagrin they do have experience...the majors are not hiring, and the few regionals that are hiring are at a much lower rate of pay...so they (the NJA Pilots) have painted themselves in a corner....trust me if the pilots at NJA walk...there will be more than enough replacement pilots...the company will impose pay rates, and it will be a lot better than current...and there will be a flock of people wanting to work at NJA...afraid to cross the picket line?? NOT!!!!! They will cross in droves...they will come from Delta, NWA, United, and lots of other sources...do you think for a minute that ALPA or any pilots they have represented will honor a Teamster's picket line??? NOT!!!!! So I say "Let it happen" ...lets get this strike on with...and lets get rid of the cancerous Teamsters union once and for all..WGFP48

 

[WGFP48]

Capn V...after the union boys walk, there will be some changes...and one of them will be pay...it will go up...just not the 100% they want...so yes it will be very attractive to furloughed airline types...they will line up to work at NJA.....throw in 7 and 7 and the benefits...any USair, NWA, Delta,United guy/gal will be in there.....and those with the STFD mentality...they will have a hard time finding jobs because of their attitude...what chief pilot wants to hire a bozo who is going to hold a gun to his head 6 months or year later down the road??? NOT!!! I for one can't wait for the supposed "scab list"...they going to pass it out to the truckers...that way if I am hitchiking on I-95, the trucker who stops to pick me up is going to consult the scab list??? NOT!!! I wonder how the guys walking the line can make it on $120 a week strike benefits??? NOT!!! They will cross the line in droves...."Let it Happen" WGFP48

 

[squonk]

It took six weeks of Indoc, Sim, and then another eight weeks for check rides when I was hired. When all these picket crossers come over, that would create quite the backlog don't you think?

I don't know how many of these USAirways, Delta and United pilots are typed and current on a C-X, but I just don't see how this will work. We can't attract bottom feeders now. How will we ever attract the best and brightest?

 

[Heavy Set]

It took six weeks of Indoc, Sim, and then another eight weeks for check rides when I was hired. When all these picket crossers come over, that would create quite the backlog don't you think?

I don't know how many of these USAirways, Delta and United pilots are typed and current on a C-X, but I just don't see how this will work. We can't attract bottom feeders now. How will we ever attract the best and brightest?

And even if NJA does attract some high-timed pilots (the pilots they advertise about in their ads and PR videos for potential owners), they will probably view NJA as a "transition" job while searching for better positions out there. No experienced pilot would view NJA's payscale or acrimonious labor environment as acceptable for a career.... I suppose some people would now view NJA as just a great place to collect valuable type ratings to use elsewhere. Loyalty goes out the window.

Let's face it, NJA has a bad reputation now in terms of work environment and labor relations - I guess you get what you PAY FOR... NJA's management likely views pilots solely as cost centers or "taxi drivers" vs. team members. Is that smart to do in a service-oriented business when the pilots actually interface with the customers? Do you think SWA pilots are treated solely as cost centers? I never hear any SWA pilots griping - and I bet their resulting productivity and customer service are stellar. When will management ever learn?????

 

[cgmason1]

Family Guy
Are you sure you know what your talking about when you compared the JB 190 rates?

First of all the current rates are low and hopefully they will go up once the aircraft proves profitable(same thing happened for the A320).

But even at the current rate-a first year CPT on the 190 will make just under 80K a year.
You can't look at the straight hourly rate-you have to consider JB pays time and a half for any hours above 70.
Average line holder flies in the mid 80's.

With that being said I totally agree with you that NJA first year CPT's should make at least 80K plus and it should go up from there.
The average work load of an NJA pilot is allot harder and they should be compensated for it.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[FamilyGuy]

First of all, it's no secret that NJA management has been unwilling to sit down and constructively negotiate a wage that would retain and attract "loyal" pilots. In its own PR videos for owners, NJA claims that its pilots are among the most experienced and best-trained pilots in the aviation industry. Well, I doubt this is the case now as many of the better and more experienced pilots have either left or are seriously considering it. I know four pilots at NJA (one on the Excel, one on the X and two flying the Hawker 800XP). Two are former high-time airline pilots (furloughed) and two have military backgrounds with high times. Three of the four are currently interviewing with either top-notch Part 91 gig (GIV position on the West Coast - not California) or airline positions (interviews with Continental, Jet Blue and UPS already set up). Sure, go ahead and say, "let them go if they want to go..." Great attitude - clearly you don't care about your once loyal employees who had high expectations for NJA. That's a great message for any potential newhire out there!!!!! If you don't like it here, just get out and shut the door behind you....... Hey Family Guy, would you consider NJA a "happy family" like the one you would find at SWA? Doubt it.

Where do you get this notion that "NJA management has been unwilling to sit down and constructively negotiate..."? NetJets management has been at the table the entire time. They have offered sizable wage increases, work rule improvements, schedule improvements, etc... What has the union done? Have they moved off their demands for 100% pay increase and $200,000 back pay? Who's not constructively negotiating in this picture?

NetJets used to be a very happy family. I couldnt believe how great it was when I was first hired. If you talk to the people that have been here more than 5 years, they will tell you how nice it was.

Unfortunately, because we were so successful, we had a huge surge in hiring from 2000-2003, to the extent that a majority of the pilots have 4 years or less with the company. This is the group that is now in charge of the union, and this is the group that has created most of the rancor you are now seeing.

This group is actively belittling the efforts of the pilots that were here before them, and have even told them that they dont want them here if they dont support the new union 100%. Makes you wonder who's fault it is if senior pilots choose to leave...

As for the ardent union supporters we got sick and tired of being abused and under paid for our services. We refused to play the arse kissing "A" team game NJA is famous or infamous for. The 3 to 5 year guys/gals have done more for this company than any of the 7, 8 or 9 year people.

What's ironic about this is that these people weren't here when the contract was originally negotiated, most were not here when it became amendable, but they are the ones crying the loudest about how long this is taking while they make extreme demands that are not financially viable.

I've seen this company's generosity and compassion for its employees numerous times over the years. I truly believe that the company is willing to pay the pilots a fair wage that recognizes their hard work and contributions.

Unfortunately the actions of these relative newcomers (4 years or less) has done a lot of damage to the company and the relationships that we all used to enjoy with the pilot group. It appears this new group is trying to control the company, which I dont think Santulli or Buffett would ever stand for.

As for the Jet Blue E190 wages, I am aware that there are no E190s officially operating yet. However, I saw one in the pattern at MCO last week and I know that Jet Blue is already training a bunch of newhires and Captain upgrades for the aircraft. Funny how you just show the E190 rates in this comparison. I hear the upgrade time on the E190 is about one year. Do you think Jet Blue pilots who get on the E190 will sit on that aircraft? Or, do you think they will go to the higher-paying A320 after their seat-lock expires? A320 Captain pay starts at $110/hr. and you could conceivably get that in 3-4 years depending upon growth. How does that compare to 3-4 years at NJA?

In any case, I was using the E190 rates as an example - at least Jet Blue offers the potential for increasing your income over the years (you can switch fleets and fly extra hours I am told). Plus, the environment there is very positive and supportive in comparison. UPS pays even better over the long run according to the latest figures. A good Part 91 job could easily pay $80-120K annually depending upon aircraft type from the get-go. How does NJA expect to attract "high time and experienced" pilots their owners believe they have if the pay rates are not even competitive? Do you think the acrimonious relationship between management and the pilots will help recruiting?

You mentioned the E190 rates, I showed the comparison. If you want to compare to something else, then go ahead....

I would fully expect that an airline captain would make more money...The aircraft produce more revenue because they fly more legs per day and have a much higher utilization rate. This yields a bigger pool of funds for wages.

Airlines have always paid more than NetJets, and I expect they will continue to do so. If people want that liefstyle and pay, then they should pursue it.

However, as the union's own research states on their website, many pilots dont see that as a viable career path anymore, which is one of the reasons why they are pushing so hard to recreate that environment here. Unfortunately the business model doesn't support their demands.

Family Guy does his very best to spin the situation but the message is very transparent. By the way, how much are you being paid by Netjets management to spin?

A little research would have given you the answer to your question, but I'll help you out this time....

As I've stated several times before, I am a long term NetJets employee here in CMH - more than 5 years, and less than 10. How about you? I guess it makes you feel better to tell yourselves that anyone who disagrees with you works for some union busting firm....whatever you need to do to sleep at night.

As for pay, I dont get paid by anyone to post here. I do it to provide a counter balance to the incessant union bashing of what is, in truth, a very good company. As I've stated several times in the past, if anyone should pay me it should be the union, since I'm giving you a free critique of your arguments and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning.

 

[gunfyter]

Management wants to pay the pilots a fair wage.

I guess that why they offered such a lame wage in the TA last year. Claiming thats all there is... the company doesn't make money. We'll hire maybe 300 pilots over the course of the entire contract period.

Now they want you to calculate what your pay will be based on the presumption of hiring 480 pilots per year.

Unfortunately it is greed of management that brought this new union leadership into office. Should have been kinder to the old regime and offered more money... Would have been cheaper.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Famguy posted:

Wrong.

You've tried this before and we didn't let you get away with it. I guess you think if you let a few months go by you can push this revisionist history again.

The company was the one that shut down negotiations after 9/11. They pushed it back to December. Then they pushed it back another six months.

Nice try.

Try again Hoggie....

I went back and looked for your rebuttal to my original post in this thread:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=666521#post666521

and didnt see anything. Care to take another shot at it?

You want to talk about six months after 9/11 when this has been going on for 4 years? How much time did you guys waste going over every single article in the contract?