This is why the last payrates offered by NJA were "insulting."

[WGFP48]

WGFP48:



Why not just pay US the higher wage and get back to doing business?! What is so hard about that concept?

The wages you want are entirely out of line with what the market will bear...thats why...they will go up, but not to your levels...A reasonable wage for a days work...and the company has offered this nearly 3 years back...the 36% 3 year raise and $25,000 signing bonus that was turned down, was extremely foolish....you could have had a pay raise and now be working on another...there is not the first tone of reasonableness with the current negotating team...no hint of ever a compromise...and the scope issue will never fly!!!

 

[On Your Six]

The wages you want are entirely out of line with what the market will bear...thats why...they will go up, but not to your levels...A reasonable wage for a days work...and the company has offered this nearly 3 years back...the 36% 3 year raise and $25,000 signing bonus that was turned down, was extremely foolish....you could have had a pay raise and now be working on another...there is not the first tone of reasonableness with the current negotating team...no hint of ever a compromise...and the scope issue will never fly!!!

If by scope issue you are referring to integration of NJI into NJA, I think the NJE fleet (Bravos through GVs - all on the same seniority list) proves it can be done and that any redundancy in operations/infrastructure/overhead are unnecessary... If NJE can do it, why can't NJA? If NJA and NJI aircraft are swapping for each other on a daily basis (GIVSP covering for a F2000 or Citation X and vice versa), then clearly integrating the operations is possible. Sure, it's definitely not a popular idea on the NJI side for obvious reasons, but it is feasible and clearly working on the NJE side without many issues...

 

[gunfyter]

Gee,

Aren't we all lucky we are in abeyance....

 

[TheTruthCMH]

If the lack of negotiation progress continues, the more experienced NJA pilots who have options will leave (Jetblue, AirTran, Continental, Fedex, UPS and great Part 91 operations will benefit).

Why haven't these pilots left yet, what are they waiting for? I am not advocating them leaving (unless they are the STFD pilots), but am asking an honest question.

Second, like I asked before, what will these guys say when the first question (should they be fortunate enough to get the interview) asked is "so, are you one the STFD guys?" I am sure every company out there is looking for a few of these guys.

 

[SeaSpray]

Likely scenario: If the lack of negotiation progress continues, the more experienced NJA pilots who have options will leave (Jetblue, AirTran, Continental, Fedex, UPS and great Part 91 operations will benefit).

I went home on leave and did some little airplane flying at the local reliever airports. There's no shortage of furloughed Northwest pilots flying freight or charter for $17 bucks an hour in Navahos and Senecas. I guess they don't have the options NJA pilots have.

I think you'll find that great Part 91 operators are pretty cautious about hiring union members (or former union members).

 

[h25b]

The potential replacement pilots who would even consider current NJA wages as acceptable should be examined for mental issues.

You just proved the insanity of your own post... I reckon 2200+ NJA pilots need to be examined for mental issues by your own reasoning... What was their excuse then ???

 

[FlyFlyFly]

I would expect the replacements will be paid a reasonable wage. It will certainly be more than the current wage.

I believe you will find at the end of the day this has way more to do with getting rid of the Teamsters than it does money.

 

[Diesel]

I believe you will find at the end of the day this has way more to do with getting rid of the Teamsters than it does money.

I think you hit the nail on the head. This has gone long from being a financial decision to a personal/kick the union out.

The company has shown it doesn't want the union on property. They have told us they are willing to spend more to fight us than pay us.

Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy as an employee.

 

[On Your Six]

You just proved the insanity of your own post... I reckon 2200+ NJA pilots need to be examined for mental issues by your own reasoning... What was their excuse then ???

My post is not insane if you read it correctly. I am talking about upcoming replacement pilots if the attrition rate continues. Do you think a high-time military or regional pilot (RJ Captain with thousands of PIC hours) who have other options (low-cost carriers, great Part 91/135 opportunities, etc.) will actually consider NJA at this time given the low pay and antagonistic work environment? Do you really? Or do you think high-time and experienced pilots will flock to NJA in addition to the semi-desparate Beech 1900 or J31 FOs who are looking to improve their salaries beyond food-stamp level? I am not trying to be condescending - I am asking about who would currently consider NJA as a "step up" from their current situation.

Again, you may think flying a Citation X for 10+ hours per day (when it is not broken) on a non 7/7 schedule (newhires probably can't bid it initially) for $32K per year and wait potentially 4-5 years for an upgrade is FANTASTIC, but I don't. And I bet a lot of people would agree with me. Would you personally be attracted by the potential to earn $60K to fly a Hawker 800XP after 5 full years of service? Would you leave your current job for that?

The NJA "package" is not appealing and you won't find the quality, high-time, experienced pilots the fractional owners demand opting for NJA when other opportunities present themselves. That's too bad because NJA had that attraction a few years back and many people left good positions and have been burned by false expectations and a lack of caring for once-loyal employees.

 

[WGFP48]

My post is not insane if you read it correctly. I am talking about upcoming replacement pilots if the attrition rate continues. Do you think a high-time military or regional pilot (RJ Captain with thousands of PIC hours) who have other options (low-cost carriers, great Part 91/135 opportunities, etc.) will actually consider NJA at this time given the low pay and antagonistic work environment? Do you really? Or do you think high-time and experienced pilots will flock to NJA in addition to the semi-desparate Beech 1900 or J31 FOs who are looking to improve their salaries beyond food-stamp level? I am not trying to be condescending - I am asking about who would currently consider NJA as a "step up" from their current situation.

Again, you may think flying a Citation X for 10+ hours per day (when it is not broken) on a non 7/7 schedule (newhires probably can't bid it initially) for $32K per year and wait potentially 4-5 years for an upgrade is FANTASTIC, but I don't. And I bet a lot of people would agree with me. Would you personally be attracted by the potential to earn $60K to fly a Hawker 800XP after 5 full years of service? Would you leave your current job for that?

The NJA "package" is not appealing and you won't find the quality, high-time, experienced pilots the fractional owners demand opting for NJA when other opportunities present themselves. That's too bad because NJA had that attraction a few years back and many people left good positions and have been burned by false expectations and a lack of caring for once-loyal employees.

The NJA pilots have no one to blame but them selves...they had a really fantastic and realistic package offered 3 years ago...they "deep sixed" it....now they walk out of negotiating sessions...and in all honesty the union is just not wanted on the property...if it takes a strike to get rid of the teamsters...so be it...we will all be a lot better off with the union gone...it does make good business sense to spend a few extra $$ now and not have the burden dragging this company down in 3 more years again...the current economy is such that there are plenty of experienced pilots who will jump at the chance to be a part of his company....get locked out or cross the line...thats the only choices that remain now.....WGFP48

 

[wolfpackpilot]

If NJE can do it, why can't NJA?

While you make a valid point, the difference is history. When NJE began operations, they started up an autonomous operation and chose to have 1 pilot group operate all the aircraft within that operation. NetJets Management made the decision to operate the Gulfstream Aircraft separately from NJA for reasons that have been pounded into the sand on these boards, so I wont elaborate.

The situation as it stands now, will not change. Within the last 3 years, NJI has almost completely severed it infrastructure from CMH. Every month I’ve read a new “welcome aboard” email to our new CFO, Head this, Vice President that. The point being, NJI can and will operate independently from NJA, EJM, and NJE. No one develops and staffs a company to the extent NJI has with the intent to shut it all down after the teamsters strike a deal.

On a personal note I just don’t understand the total rage that a few NJA guys have over NJI. If you have anyone to blame its your union leadership back in 1996. They clearly allowed the exception into your contract. Had they fought it tooth and nail, went to the courts, filed a lawsuit, cranked up the band back in 1996, then the IBT would have a point, but they didn’t, and too much time has passed. Mr. S has kept his end of the bargain, NJI operates Gulfstream, and only Gulfstream Aircraft.

 

[WGFP48]

[/b]

If by scope issue you are referring to integration of NJI into NJA, I think the NJE fleet (Bravos through GVs - all on the same seniority list) proves it can be done and that any redundancy in operations/infrastructure/overhead are unnecessary... If NJE can do it, why can't NJA? If NJA and NJI aircraft are swapping for each other on a daily basis (GIVSP covering for a F2000 or Citation X and vice versa), then clearly integrating the operations is possible. Sure, it's definitely not a popular idea on the NJI side for obvious reasons, but it is feasible and clearly working on the NJE side without many issues...

This is just another source of mis-information...the NJE pilots are not organized in any shape of form...so its not a matter that needs discussion...NJI is non-union...and will remain so!! Maybe the NJA pilots would like to work at NJI??? they could be stapled to the current seniority list at NJI! On the bottom!!Staple...staple ...staple...WGFP48

 

[JetProp]

one word...



















































































{{{::BELCH::}}}

 

[JetProp]

This is just another great source of information...the NJE pilots want to organize...so its a matter that needs discussion...NJI is non-union...and will not remain so!! Maybe the NJA pilots would like to fly NJI's Gulfstreams??? they (NJI) could be stapled to the current seniority list at NJA! On the bottom!!Staple...staple ...staple...WGFP48

Thought I'd fix that for ya'

 

[Diesel]

WGFP48 vbmenu_register("postmenu_766850", true); -

The NJA pilots have no one to blame but them selves...they had a really fantastic and realistic package offered 3 years ago...they "deep sixed" it....

What package was offered 3 years ago? They were still negotiating. 2 years after that we had a TA that kicked to the curb.

....now they walk out of negotiating sessions...

Yup they weren't going anywhere.

and in all honesty the union is just not wanted on the property

That's true

if it takes a strike to get rid of the teamsters...so be it...

Not without the RLA releasing us.

the current economy is such that there are plenty of experienced pilots who will jump at the chance to be a part of his company

ummmm they can't hire people now. We'll see what we see.

get locked out or cross the line...thats the only choices that remain now

Ummm answered above.

It's obvious you don't know a thing about what is going on right now. There is allways a third option. Let's see what the company does shall we?

Enjoy the Ride!!!

 

[Diesel]

Have you actually talked to an NJE Pilot. I got pretty crapfaced with a couple of them over the last 2 years. A bunch of us stay in touch.

Trust me they are doing everything they can to get a union.

They really enjoy the fact that airlining is not considered duty. Makes for a long first day.

The only reason a union is brought on property is because managment is taking advantage of a group.

 

[WGFP48]

Thought I'd fix that for ya'

Very funny!!!! But the truth is the truth....NJE does not want a union...and NJI will NEVER be at the bottom of NJA..."WolfPack" has nicely described the situation...NJI has a complete facility...sans NJA....it will continue! "JetProp" Highway I-95 runs both ways...if you can't stand the heat in the kitchen...get out!! WGFP48

 

[WGFP48]

What package was offered 3 years ago? They were still negotiating. 2 years after that we had a TA that kicked to the curb.



Yup they weren't going anywhere.



That's true



Not without the RLA releasing us.



ummmm they can't hire people now. We'll see what we see.



Ummm answered above.

It's obvious you don't know a thing about what is going on right now. There is allways a third option. Let's see what the company does shall we?

Enjoy the Ride!!![/quote]

 

[WGFP48]

Diesel....there are only two choices, when they are released...and trust me the company really prefers the one...you make it...not them....WGFP48

 

[JetProp]

Very funny!!!! But the truth is the truth....NJE does not want a union...and NJI will NEVER be at the bottom of NJA..."WolfPack" has nicely described the situation...NJI has a complete facility...sans NJA....it will continue! "JetProp" Highway I-95 runs both ways...if you can't stand the heat in the kitchen...get out!! WGFP48

Union busters are repulsively slick aren't they?