This is why the last payrates offered by NJA were "insulting."

[gunfyter]

One payscale:

I think the guys in the Falcon get hosed... and those in the 400XP do better relative to the outside world is the answer.

Right now everybody is hosed.

 

[TheTruthCMH]

One payscale:

I think the guys in the Falcon get hosed... and those in the 400XP do better relative to the outside world is the answer.

Right now everybody is hosed.

Which plane do you or the union propose they use for the 90th percentile?

 

[dime line]

Hey Gunfyter I fly contract for a guy that owns a BeechJet 400 (no A here) who makes 100,000 salary. He flys for a family that uses the BJ as the family stationwagon. Great family as well. They don't abuse him and he has plenty of time off. Also there was a Diamond CP position in Central FL paying 98,000, but I don't know anything about that gig, could be the worst job out there but at least they pay.

 

[x402]

Which plane do you or the union propose they use for the 90th percentile?

That's a moronic question, again, surface bargining. How low can we go? They haven't gotten close to a median of the composite of the fleets. So please take your idiotic views go back to the law firm that has hired you and tell them you have failed and need a quarter to call home for a ride.

 

[linder]

actually i did 900hrs last year.

Just curious Diesel but does that 900 hours include your part time King Air job?

 

[TheTruthCMH]

That's a moronic question, again, surface bargining. How low can we go? They haven't gotten close to a median of the composite of the fleets. So please take your idiotic views go back to the law firm that has hired you and tell them you have failed and need a quarter to call home for a ride.

Why the need for the hatred? Are you losing faith? I don't belittle anyone on these boards, why do you feel the need? You don't know who I am and I don't know who you are, I am here for some open dialogue.

I was merely asking a simple question, there are some that read these boards that would truly like to know and they are IN THE KNOW.

So, nothing positive, don't say anything at all.

 

[2EASYPilot]

"In other words, if the 90th percentile pay on the Falcon is $128K (like GEX mentioned, I don't know that it is), then do you pay the 400XP pilots the same if it's just one pay scale?"

Not sure how many 5 year captains are making 128K after five years and my guess would that to be in the 90 percentile of NBAA wages would take much longer than 5 years at most 91 operations with the possible exception of the East coast. Our compensation department has chosen to not use the NBAA survey but does use the Stanton survey information. A solid 91 operation considers much more than basic pay as part of the compensation package i.e., bonuses, insurance, 401K etc. No flames please, I just would hope you are realistic in your demands otherwise happiness will be elusive.

 

[Diesel]

No it doesn't. I don't even count the king air flying. Those are gravy run trips.

The 900hrs was when I was an instructor in the U boat.

Now with the X if the plane doesn't break I'll do less than that. Some weeks though you end up flying 40hrs a week. That adds up pretty quick.

 

[gunfyter]

Which plane do you or the union propose they use for the 90th percentile?

The G-V

Actually. I favored Pay by type... but I am in a very small miniority I was shocked to discover.

Ok I saw the percentile of seniority based payscale. I am holding the same Aircraft and seat I would hold if we had a Re-bid. So it makes no difference to me.

Either way I expect to be paid NBAA Citation X-pay. Right now I am collecting less than COTA bus driver pay

 

[FlyFlyFly]

1. Do you think paying a high-time Citation X Captain $55-60K per year is reasonable?

2. Do you think Sovereign or Falcon 2000 FOs requesting more than $35K per year in salary is unreasonable?

No it is not reasonable pay. I would expect most pilots to turn down a job that would offer that kind of pay.

Problem is, there are many pilots out there that view that as acceptable, or they wouldn't accept the job in the first place.

I am continually amazed at the low pay that pilots are willing to accept at regionals and fractionals.

Why do they do it? Why do they say yes to a job that pays worse than a frickin' night manager at Quik Trip?

Why do they say yes to a job with a salary that would embarass an over the road truck driver?

Why?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

No it is not reasonable pay. I would expect most pilots to turn down a job that would offer that kind of pay.

Problem is, there are many pilots out there that view that as acceptable, or they wouldn't accept the job in the first place.

I am continually amazed at the low pay that pilots are willing to accept at regionals and fractionals.

Why do they do it? Why do they say yes to a job that pays worse than a frickin' night manager at Quik Trip?

Why do they say yes to a job with a salary that would embarass an over the road truck driver?

Why?

those are the questions these guys CANNOT answer, hence they have no legs to stand on....and you can bet thier management knows this and is not too worried.

They can be replaced by the next guy willing to do it in a heartbeat. They aren't the only pilots out there willing to do the job for $hit. We all know this sad fact all too well.

 

[squonk]

Squonk...for once you are partially right!! It will take 6 to 8 weeks to spool up...but you are forgetting that NJA pilots will cross in droves too...there isn't a one of them that can make it on $120 a week strike benefits....when they realize how little the Teamsters are going to give them to stay out on strike, they will cross....then there will be sell offs and NJM and NJI will pick up some of the slack...so you see it can be done!!

I watched ALPA during the Eastern strike, and ALPA had commissioned Kit Darby's company FAPA to make an assement whether there were pilots who Eastern could use as replacements...FAPA only could identify less than 100 people they thought would go to work at Eastern...well in 6 months Eastern hired and trained 2800 pilots and had them on the line as 1011 Capt's, DC-9 Capt's, 727 Capt's, and every sort of F/O...It can be done!!!

As determined as the NJA pilots are to STFD, the resolve of the company and the remaining employees is even higher...WGFP48

Let me say I will never say never. You may be right. It could play out like Eastern, but let me poke a few holes in your scenario.

You think NJA pilots will cross in "droves". I don't doubt that we will have some SCABS cross over. The company already has Eastern SCABS on property. Unless they are trying to atone for past sins, it's a fair bet they may go again. You are assuming that NJA pilots have only NJA and nothing on the side or nothing to fall back on. While this may be the case for some, I can tell you half the folks I fly with have another job on the side or they are flying on the side. I bet you we don't cross in "Droves". NJA would probably be doing most of these folks a favor by spurring them into going full time into their "hobby". I will guarantee that no one is counting on $120 a month to stay afloat.

Your comparing a once great former airline to NJA doesn't pass the smell test either. It is one thing I guess for a SCAB to cross in the hopes he will fast track into heavy iron like the Eastern SCABS. It is quite another for anyone wanting to come fly the mighty BJ400 or CE560! We can't even attract no time bottom feeders here now. Why do you think anyone would come flying through the door only to be scorned the rest of their career?

I don't doubt it can be done. I just think it is unlikely in this case.

If you need further proof read this bullet taken from another thread:

But if the company is expecting the pilots to capitulate to
its demands, a recent Web-based survey of the unionized workforce by the Wilson Center shows otherwise. “The possibility of a [National Mediation Board]-imposed recess of indefinite duration will have little effect on the bargaining goals of the pilot group,” according to the survey. In fact, “73.4 percent of the pilot group is prepared to wait either until management modifies its position or for as long as it takes for the NMB to declare an impasse and then engage in a strike.”

The survey also notes, “More than 90 percent feel their union will be successful in gaining the pilot group’s bargaining goals. Nearly 80 percent feel they have great or considerable bargaining power.” Additionally, “More than 90 percent are committed to striking, and intensity of sentiment is especially strong–more than 80 percent are ‘completely and firmly committed.’”

 

[WGFP48]

Squonk...once again partially right...I posted the other day that the wages offered will be higher than they are now...there are literally hundreds of pilots furloughed that will come to NJA...the reason is simple...it will pay more than now, and its a flying job...and many of them have none....it happened at Eastern and it will happen here...if there are really that many NJA pilots who have other interests, then good deal for them...but there will be many pilots who cannot survive on the union's strike pay...they will cross the line...survival of their families, the need to pay their bills, and the maybe the need to have health insurance will be strong motivation.....I am glad we agree that Eastern was a fine airline...I worked there until the day it shut down...it was one of the finest flying jobs I have ever had...it was indeed a true family orientated airline....but I have some of the same feelings here at NetJets...a fair wage, a respectable work place environment....and best of all no union....I saw the IAM (Mechanic's Union) and ALPA ruin a fine airline....and here we are poised on the brink of another union with one purpose...destroy a really fine company....thats why they have to go!!!

 

[WGFP48]

Squonk, and one final thought too...calling me or any other pilot who crosses your line, a scab, really "scares" me!!! What are you going to do? Publish a scab list so I can't jumpseat on a 18 wheeler??

 

[On Your Six]

Squonk, and one final thought too...calling me or any other pilot who crosses your line, a scab, really "scares" me!!! What are you going to do? Publish a scab list so I can't jumpseat on a 18 wheeler??

Not very impressive attitude if you ask me. You sound like a fun guy to fly with...

Likely scenario: If the lack of negotiation progress continues, the more experienced NJA pilots who have options will leave (Jetblue, AirTran, Continental, Fedex, UPS and great Part 91 operations will benefit). Morale will continue to tank. NJA will have problems attracting quality, high-time pilots to replace the once-loyal departing pilots. Owners will become concerned and start to question NJA's hiring policies and commitment to safety after too many craap landings and customer service gaffs. Owner renewal rates will decline. NJA will be forced to provide discounts or special deals to retain or attract new owners - profit margins will be squeezed more and more.

In the end, NJA will lose far more money by stalling than it would by working to bridge the gap and rewarding loyal pilots who want to make a career at NJA. It is very clear that NJA is not a place to spend a career - certainly not at these pathetic wage levels...

 

[squonk]

Squonk, and one final thought too...calling me or any other pilot who crosses your line, a scab, really "scares" me!!! What are you going to do? Publish a scab list so I can't jumpseat on a 18 wheeler??

Seeing as you're a johnny come lately on this board, do a search and you can read all the SCAB arguments.

Are you NJA or NJI? If you are NJA and cross, then yes the shoe would fit. I will withhold judgement for NJI.

 

[squonk]

WGFP48:

Squonk...once again partially right...I posted the other day that the wages offered will be higher than they are now

Why not just pay US the higher wage and get back to doing business?! What is so hard about that concept?

 

[h25b]

Not very impressive attitude if you ask me. You sound like a fun guy to fly with...

Likely scenario: If the lack of negotiation progress continues, the more experienced NJA pilots who have options will leave (Jetblue, AirTran, Continental, Fedex, UPS and great Part 91 operations will benefit). Morale will continue to tank. NJA will have problems attracting quality, high-time pilots to replace the once-loyal departing pilots. Owners will become concerned and start to question NJA's hiring policies and commitment to safety after too many craap landings and customer service gaffs. Owner renewal rates will decline. NJA will be forced to provide discounts or special deals to retain or attract new owners - profit margins will be squeezed more and more.

In the end, NJA will lose far more money by stalling than it would by working to bridge the gap and rewarding loyal pilots who want to make a career at NJA. It is very clear that NJA is not a place to spend a career - certainly not at these pathetic wage levels...

Well, I guess that's how one could see it with rose colored glasses. I once held the "we're not replaceable" attitude.. All it does is keep you from seeing the writing on the wall.

 

[On Your Six]

Well, I guess that's how one could see it with rose colored glasses. I once held the "we're not replaceable" attitude.. All it does is keep you from seeing the writing on the wall.

The potential replacement pilots who would even consider current NJA wages as acceptable should be examined for mental issues. Sure, NJA might pay better than Mesa on the B1900D, but no sane pilot worth his salt would consider current NJA wages as acceptable over the long term. NJA, in its current pay situation, should not be considered a place to hang your hat...

NJA evidently looks for people who can both aviate as well provide above-average customer service to discriminating owners. At some point, well qualified pilots (on both points) will bypass NJA altogether and not even consider it because of its now sullied reputation and way-below average wage levels.

If NJA is satisfied with incoming pilots possessing bare-minimum flight qualifications and experience working at McDonalds in high school (customer service experience), then perhaps NJA will get what it pays for...

 

[FAcFriend]

FYI

On your six- If the company was released for self help- when they hire replacement pilots those pilots are not hired under the current CBA

Also, if and when the union pilots decided to come back to work- the replacement pilots can become permanent pilots, and if there are not enough jobs left over- the union guys would be furloughed not the replacement pilots.

If the co. is released for self help- you do understand they can hire those replacement pilots at any price they want- Released means the company no longer has to honor the contract.