This is why the last payrates offered by NJA were "insulting."

[WGFP48]

Union busters are repulsively slick aren't they?

JetProp...you forgot to take your meds today! Or drinking too much of the "koolaid"...

 

[JetProp]

...Union Busters prey on the fears and purses of the companies that hire them...

 

[Diesel]

WGFP48-

Dude learn how to use the quote button.

Hey kids get grampa away from the computer!

 

[JetProp]

.....

 

[TheTruthCMH]

Mr. S has kept his end of the bargain, NJI operates Gulfstream, and only Gulfstream Aircraft.

Ok, here is one for the other side. What about the Citation X that is crewed by NJI on the EJM certificate?

 

[h25b]

My post is not insane if you read it correctly. I am talking about upcoming replacement pilots if the attrition rate continues. o you think a high-time military or regional pilot (RJ Captain with thousandDs of PIC hours) who have other options (low-cost carriers, great Part 91/135 opportunities, etc.) will actually consider NJA at this time given the low pay and antagonistic work environment? Do you really? Or do you think high-time and experienced pilots will flock to NJA in addition to the semi-desparate Beech 1900 or J31 FOs who are looking to improve their salaries beyond food-stamp level? I am not trying to be condescending - I am asking about who would currently consider NJA as a "step up" from their current situation.

Again, you may think flying a Citation X for 10+ hours per day (when it is not broken) on a non 7/7 schedule (newhires probably can't bid it initially) for $32K per year and wait potentially 4-5 years for an upgrade is FANTASTIC, but I don't. And I bet a lot of people would agree with me. Would you personally be attracted by the potential to earn $60K to fly a Hawker 800XP after 5 full years of service? Would you leave your current job for that?

The NJA "package" is not appealing and you won't find the quality, high-time, experienced pilots the fractional owners demand opting for NJA when other opportunities present themselves. That's too bad because NJA had that attraction a few years back and many people left good positions and have been burned by false expectations and a lack of caring for once-loyal employees.

How you can't understand the point is beyond my imagination... The reason NJA can't recruit pilots is because the union has been successful in running people off and no one wants to be a new hire just to end up walking in circles.

But to get back to my original point. How can you in one breath tell us all that anyone willing to go to work there needs their head examined while there are 2200+ pilots on the seniority list at NJA that went to work for those same wages ??? They all knew what the pay was when they accepted employment. You're using a pretty obvious double standard.

And where are these "other options" ??? In case you didn't notice there are thousands of furloughed airline pilots walking the streets and I don't know of many great corporate jobs that get excited about hiring union pilots, especially from NetJets (you know, the company that tried to shut them down..) I guess you live a different world than me, would love to visit sometime.

 

[On Your Six]

This is just another source of mis-information...the NJE pilots are not organized in any shape of form...so its not a matter that needs discussion...NJI is non-union...and will remain so!! Maybe the NJA pilots would like to work at NJI??? they could be stapled to the current seniority list at NJI! On the bottom!!Staple...staple ...staple...WGFP48

From my perspective, there is no logical rationale for the NJI situaiton given the NJE precedent. The NJA fleet and NJI fleet are interchangeable with aircraft swapping for each other on a daily basis. I understand the history - Forstmann and Gulfstream wanted the JV to be non-union and NJI was born. Sure, NJA pilots could have protested back in 96, but I doubt they had the size or confidence to oppose it at the time (pure speculation on my part). The company was still relatively young at the time and the bulk of its growth happened after that time period if memory serves...

NJE complicates the entire situation. The precedent has already been set by NJE - it operates all aircraft including the Gulfstreams and I recently met a newhire FO at NJE at Luton who was hired directly into that aircraft (he considered himself lucky because he could have easily been hired into the Bravo). NJA adds new aircraft types to its program all the time (Sovereign, upcoming Horizon and G150) - so integrating the Gulfstreams into the NJA operation would not be a problem. If I were a corporate raider looking for costs to cut, I would look at the NJI operation and note that all of the infrastructure and overhead could be integrated into the NJA operation - it is redundant. NJA dispatchers could handle NJI flights. The branding is the same - a Falcon 2000 owner who uses a GIVSP (in the event that the Falcon has a mechanical) would not see a perceptible difference in service. Gulfstream owners who get to fly on the BBJ don't see a huge difference in service levels - it is all seen as an "integrated" operation in the minds of the owners.

Clearly this is a very emotional issue. However, there is no logical reason to keep the operations separate (from either an economic or a service-level perspective) given the NJE precedent - regardless of the lack of union in Europe. Having spoken with a number of NJE pilots at Luton and Lisbon recently, unionization may become a reality in Europe too because they are not happy over there either.

 

[On Your Six]

How you can't understand the point is beyond my imagination... The reason NJA can't recruit pilots is because the union has been successful in running people off and no one wants to be a new hire just to end up walking in circles.

But to get back to my original point. How can you in one breath tell us all that anyone willing to go to work there needs their head examined while there are 2200+ pilots on the seniority list at NJA that went to work for those same wages ??? They all knew what the pay was when they accepted employment. You're using a pretty obvious double standard.

And where are these "other options" ??? In case you didn't notice there are thousands of furloughed airline pilots walking the streets and I don't know of many great corporate jobs that get excited about hiring union pilots, especially from NetJets (you know, the company that tried to shut them down..) I guess you live a different world than me, would love to visit sometime.

First off, your point about the "union being successful running people off" makes no sense to me. The extremely low wages and the lack of negotiating progress certainly would impact peoples' decision to stay or completely avoid NJA. Sure, blame the union. Perhaps you didn't see this from the recent AIN story (makes the NJA management look very benevolent):

According to the pilots’ union, International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT) Local 1108, NetJets put forth a proposal that “offered less than a $300 per month increase for a five-year captain.” Figures released by the union show the divide that exists between labor and management; the union seeks an annual salary of $114,156 for a fifth-year captain and $74,202 for a fifth-year first officer, equating to the 90th percentile of the NBAA Compensation and Benchmark Survey. The company’s latest proposal is $71,752 and $44,200, respectively, putting the pay in the 10th percentile of the NBAA salary survey.


Gee, with the extra $300 per month you and your family can afford a few extra trips to Taco Bell every month. "Sure Junior, go ahead and Super Size it - I can afford it with my extra $300 buck per month."

As far as your second point about the 2,200 pilots who went to work for those wages, many of them were aware of the contract talks and were convinced that NJA management would respect them and agree to wages commensurate with their experience and commitment to customer service. Many certainly hoped for a lot better and counted on a better contract soon after joining. I know people who joined because they had misguided expectations that the situation would improve considerably.

Additionally, a lot of the pilots were hired after they were furloughed from various airlines or after they retired - I know a few UAL guys who went over to NJA because there weren't a lot of options at the time for high-time pilots. However, now that hiring has increased at Jet Blue, AirTran, SWA, Continental, etc., you will see these experienced pilots leaving. The furloughed pilots will jump ship because NJA is not a compelling place to be any longer. Why would someone want to stay at NJA if the level of disrespect for the pilot group was this transparent?

 

[WGFP48]

...Union Busters prey on the fears and purses of the companies that hire them...

I am not a Union Buster! I work for Net Jets, and I have seen personally what a union can do for a company...I am a concerned pilot...I saw the IAM (who are a bunch of thugs too) destroy a really great airline....and from all apprearances the SU/IBT is trying to do the same here! To suggest that the tactic STFD is a choice is terrible....on the other hand, ridding the company of this cancer called SU/IBT is just about everyone's goal now..if this makes me a "Union Buster" then so be it!!!

 

[gunfyter]

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE


YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED





​

 

[h25b]

Additionally, a lot of the pilots were hired after they were furloughed from various airlines or after they retired - I know a few UAL guys who went over to NJA because there weren't a lot of options at the time for high-time pilots. However, now that hiring has increased at Jet Blue, AirTran, SWA, Continental, etc., you will see these experienced pilots leaving. The furloughed pilots will jump ship because NJA is not a compelling place to be any longer. Why would someone want to stay at NJA if the level of disrespect for the pilot group was this transparent?

If these guys/gals fell for the old carrot-on-a-stick routine by RTS, SHAME ON THEM. Idiot move by anyone's standards...

You act like there's not already droves lined up for spots at those airlines. And for your education: (1) SWA requires a type and last I heard has slowed/stopped interviewing, (2) JetBlue will be hiring mostly in to the EMB-190 for crap pay, (3) Airtran I think has a FAR 121 PIC minimum, (4) take a look at first year Continental pay... No "highly experienced" NJA pilot with a family to support could take that pay cut... I'd like to know what planet you're in orbit around thinking these guys can just go jump ship somewhere else... IF THEY COULD COMMON SENSE DICTATES THEY WOULD HAVE ALREADY !!!!!!!!! Gee whiz, haven't you heard it's easier to find a job when you've got one.

You're acting like they can just set fire to the place and walk across the street to find a job. Your poking them along down this self-destructive path and telling them everything's going to be just fine is doing no great service to anyone. Reminds me when I was in fifth grade and all of my friends kept telling my I could kick Brian's a$$, then I promptly got my a$$ handed to me. It took a bloody nose/black eye, but hey at least I learned not to listen to other people when it's my a$$ that could get kicked... I guess some people just need a good a$$ whip'n for a lesson learned...

But hey, if the majority of NJA pilots want their whip'n they can roll the dice and see what happens. Rest assured Warren Buffett will be their "Brian."

 

[Just Peachy]

No Future.....

Its good that you are in the minority wgfp48.... clearly the rest of the union doesnt think like you. When the company hired me 4 years ago, the mantra from the company AND the union was, "Look, we know the pay is low, and we are working on getting it changed to industry standards." and I believed it.......

So now the compay is crying, " we cant afford to pay industry standards." Well no sh*t brother. After taking all the profits and spending them on all the other divisions, its no wonder.

When a company sends out memos stating " no recording of conversations with anyone at CMH, and claims to open its books to the union but will NOT allow a forensic search to see where all the money went." Just how much trust will you give those managers? I wont even get into flight operations in which it would of been illegal to take the dispatched flt..... we have to make and keep copys of logs, write ups and memos cuz the company denies they ever said, requested, or did that....

Can you spell Enron???

 

[wolfpackpilot]

From my perspective, there is no logical rationale for the NJI situation given the NJE precedent.

Heres One... The IBT

Sure, NJA pilots could have protested back in 96, but I doubt they had the size or confidence to oppose it at the time

As my mom would tell me when I was little... "Coulda, shoulda, didn't". (I hated when she said that).

NJE complicates the entire situation. The precedent has already been set by NJE - it operates all aircraft including the Gulfstreams

Invalid argument, NJI was created well before NJE came along. (ie Boeing should have built the 747 before the 707 as the 747 was a far superior aircraft)

The branding is the same

I disagree. The Falcon, Gulfstreams, and BBJ do give the same level of service. But two 28 year old ultra pilots wearing Sketchers or Doc Martins, shirts hanging out of their pants, wearing lanyards with Teamster pins all over them, complaining to the owners about how crappy NetJets is treating them is not the same experience my owners receive.

However, there is no logical reason to keep the operations separate

Do you know everything that Management plans? What if NJI is being sold as we speak. Or perhaps NetJets wants the ability to sell NJI off in a moments notice.

Having spoken with a number of NJE pilots at Luton and Lisbon recently, unionization may become a reality in Europe too because they are not happy over there either.

Yet another delusional approach which unions so desperately feed upon. If you ain't happy, get unionized, we'll make those b*stards pay.

Look, I honestly appreciate your rational view of the situation, and furthermore I applaud you for keeping your opinions civil, that speaks volume for your character. But NJI will never be merged with NJA, it just isn't going to happen. NJA pilots need to focus on improvements that are attainable and stop worrying about 230 "old farts" with reading glasses.

 

[Diesel]

I disagree. The Falcon, Gulfstreams, and BBJ do give the same level of service. But two 28 year old ultra pilots wearing Sketchers or Doc Martins, shirts hanging out of their pants, wearing lanyards with Teamster pins all over them, complaining to the owners about how crappy NetJets is treating them is not the same experience my owners receive.

Yeah this isn't a regional and i've never seen that. I have seen gulfstream guys that haven't missed a meal in their lives, coke bottles for glasses and walking across the ramp makes them look like they are going to have a heart attack.

Look i can play the game too.

 

[h25b]

Yeah this isn't a regional and i've never seen that. I have seen gulfstream guys that haven't missed a meal in their lives, coke bottles for glasses and walking across the ramp makes them look like they are going to have a heart attack.

Look i can play the game too.

Agreed...

I have to side with Wolfpack though on the sitting around complaining issue though. I see that frequently. Maybe somewhat understandable, but they are going to make it difficult for those hoping to jump ship to corporate. It's making an impression on the Chief Pilots who sit in the corner quietly taking it all in, making mental notes not to ever let one of those whiners in the door. Wish I had a nickel for every time I've sat in a pilot's lounge talking to a nice fellow to find out at the end of the conversation he's C.P./Director for XYZ Corp.

The last thing in the world one of these guys wants to do is bring in some union hard head rockin the boat. Keep your fight out of the F.B.O. pilot's lounges.

 

[Diesel]

That's fine you can side on the complaining issue. There are 2200 of us that have been trapped in this limbo. We are at every fbo, every hotel, every crew van. We are everywhere and when you go from one fbo to another it's the same thing. I notice it when I'm flying the king air.

But what do you do? There are so many of us that it's bound to come up. It's how information gets out there. It's a shame that a CP for one company or another can take the pilot group as a whole and judge them instead of looking at the individual. But that's life and you can't change perceptions.

This isn't a charter or corp dept that has only a couple of guys. 2200 of us walking around the first thing you're going to ask is, "what is the latest".

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[h25b]

I can agree that it's probably unavoidable. But it's not the "what's the latest" that's the problem. I could tell you about the group I overheard the other day and there's no C.P. I can imagine that would want that mentality in their department...

 

[Diesel]

I completely agree but what CP operates a flight department like this one? A cp in a small flight department is usually upfront and deals with questions and rumors head on. They don't send out propoganda and try to turn the other people in the flight department against the pilots. That's what we are dealing with. That's why you hear what you hear in the FBO's.

Trust me when i put my other hat on in my other job it's a completely different feeling. I'm part of the team. I'm working hard at making sure that the department is a success. (look at my agonizing posts regard wxxm, I'm trying to do what's right for the airplane).

 

[TheTruthCMH]

I completely agree but what CP operates a flight department like this one? A cp in a small flight department is usually upfront and deals with questions and rumors head on. They don't send out propoganda and try to turn the other people in the flight department against the pilots. That's what we are dealing with. That's why you hear what you hear in the FBO's.

I've seen most of the emails put out and I don't believe (could be wrong) that any of the CP's at NJA put out any propaganda. I think most of the emails you are referring to Diesel came out from above the DO...

 

[Diesel]

yeah the cp's don't put anything out. I was trying to make an apples to apples comparison. The letters come from the DO and CEO.

 

[gunfyter]

Letters are composed by the Union Busting firm...

 

[TheTruthCMH]

yeah the cp's don't put anything out. I was trying to make an apples to apples comparison. The letters come from the DO and CEO.

I disagree once again, I don't believe the DO puts out anything other than operational emails (once again, from what I've heard and seen myself)... You sure you work for the same company?

 

[Diesel]

jesus christ man the DO puts out his own wacky emails that are insulting enough on their own.

 

[TheTruthCMH]

jesus christ man the DO puts out his own wacky emails that are insulting enough on their own.

Yes, you rang?

Ok, I'll give you that but I don't think he puts out anything but operational emails, no propaganda. Everyone in the flight center gets a copy of most of his emails because they affect many different departments.

 

[gunfyter]

If you get sick in the Flight center do you need to bring in a note from Epstein's mother to go back to work?

 

[Diesel]

Dude it's the same thing. Union busting or not they are the same type of emails that wouldn't fly in a corp department.

Read my above, above, above post about a corp department has a different feeling to nj

 

[TheTruthCMH]

If you get sick in the Flight center do you need to bring in a note from Epstein's mother to go back to work?

Nah, we just wait until we arrive at work to DNIF, then some other poor sap has to pick up our slack and work twice as hard. Hmm, that sounds familiar...

 

[TheTruthCMH]

I completely agree but what CP operates a flight department like this one? A cp in a small flight department is usually upfront and deals with questions and rumors head on. They don't send out propoganda and try to turn the other people in the flight department against the pilots. That's what we are dealing with. That's why you hear what you hear in the FBO's.

Trust me when i put my other hat on in my other job it's a completely different feeling. I'm part of the team. I'm working hard at making sure that the department is a success. (look at my agonizing posts regard wxxm, I'm trying to do what's right for the airplane).

Ok, I will quote your entire post. I still disagree and say that your CP/DO do not send out PROPAGANDA TO TRY AND TURN THE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE FLIGHT DEPARTMENT AGAINST THE PILOTS. I believe the emails you are referring to come from HIGHER THAN THE DO.

Is that loud enough for you?

 

[Diesel]

You don't need to shout. Nobody listens anyway.

I've allways wondered why people keep saying someone else has to pick up the slack. It just doesn't make sense. When I go on the road i get scheduled for a 14hr day. It happens every day maybe 13 maybe 14 but it still happens every day.

So a plane breaks what are they going to do schedule me for 15hrs? Where is this extra work they are going to pile on me? It's not like they can schedule me to stay after hours. 14 is it. So when upstairs is saying other people have to pick up the slack... I ask where? My day is allready full. You can't add anything more. Sure you can change my day but you can't add to it.

I do agree though it is not the CP's that send out crap. That does come from much higher.

 

[TheTruthCMH]

You don't need to shout. Nobody listens anyway.

I've allways wondered why people keep saying someone else has to pick up the slack. It just doesn't make sense. When I go on the road i get scheduled for a 14hr day. It happens every day maybe 13 maybe 14 but it still happens every day.

So a plane breaks what are they going to do schedule me for 15hrs? Where is this extra work they are going to pile on me? It's not like they can schedule me to stay after hours. 14 is it. So when upstairs is saying other people have to pick up the slack... I ask where? My day is allready full. You can't add anything more. Sure you can change my day but you can't add to it.

I do agree though it is not the CP's that send out crap. That does come from much higher.

Seems you are listening (actually reading) or you wouldn't have responded.

Let's say we have three crews scheduled to work eight hour days and two crews scheduled to work 14. One of those crews DNIF's/Fatigue's/plane breaks, now one of the remaining four crews (possibly more) has to pick up the flight(s) (obviously coming from one of the eight hour crews). They were scheduled to only have four legs and an eight hour work day, now they have six legs and their day will bump up against 14 (not over, they won't do it). Now the remaining two crews will likely be held on duty a little longer because we have less planes and crews available to cover anything else that may break/fatigue/DNIF down the road. This last scenario is truly what plays out on a daily basis as of late. It is also not uncommon for someone on their first day that has to drive several hours to their gateway, to call in fatigued before ever doing any work...

When push comes to shove, these planes come from all over the NJA fleet to cover flights. While most of the Excel's are scheduled to long duty days, some of the other fleets aren't because they just don't have as much work to do. Now they will be kept on to cover the above flights I mentioned. There will also be some crews only scheduled for standby to give the company some flexibility if a plane breaks/crew DNIF's/fatigues. Now those crews will swing into action and likely end up with a full day when they were only scheduled for standby previously.

I am not saying it is good or bad, just telling it like I see it.