This is why the last payrates offered by NJA were "insulting."

[FlyFlyFly]

To get back on topic, $70,000 per year is required in most of California, and many other states, just to pay the most basic bills. Under the latest proposal, a pilot here would not hit that until their 4th year. Inadequate

Ok Grump, back to topic...

If it requires $70K per year, and you are not making that with your current job, then you best get off your ass and go find a job that will pay the bills.

Otherwise, you are just blaming someone else for your inability to make an intelligent decision.

 

[Heavy Set]

Ok Grump, back to topic...

If it requires $70K per year, and you are not making that with your current job, then you best get off your ass and go find a job that will pay the bills.

Otherwise, you are just blaming someone else for your inability to make an intelligent decision.

After 3+ years of negotiating, he and the rest of NJA folks have a right to expect more. Had NJA management negotiated in good faith and avoided transparent delay tactics and an agreement had been made years ago, perhaps this thread would not have been an issue. Grump is merely stating that living in California is very difficult on an NJA salary.

The problem for NJA is that many, many current NJA pilots either are moving on or are seriously considering it with resumes out - that is going to come back and bite NJA in the a$$ soon... And then they are going to wonder why the experienced pilots they desire aren't interested in flying for NJA - because it has a BAD REPUTATION and it doesn't reward loyalty... Even E190 rates at Jet Blue are starting to look good in comparison.

 

[WGFP48]

Ok Heavy Set....if the NJA pilots want to move on "Let Them"...in the mean time..they really don't have much in the way of options...there are thousands of un-employed airline pilots looking for jobs...and much to your chagrin they do have experience...the majors are not hiring, and the few regionals that are hiring are at a much lower rate of pay...so they (the NJA Pilots) have painted themselves in a corner....trust me if the pilots at NJA walk...there will be more than enough replacement pilots...the company will impose pay rates, and it will be a lot better than current...and there will be a flock of people wanting to work at NJA...afraid to cross the picket line?? NOT!!!!! They will cross in droves...they will come from Delta, NWA, United, and lots of other sources...do you think for a minute that ALPA or any pilots they have represented will honor a Teamster's picket line??? NOT!!!!! So I say "Let it happen" ...lets get this strike on with...and lets get rid of the cancerous Teamsters union once and for all..WGFP48

 

[FamilyGuy]

After 3+ years of negotiating, he and the rest of NJA folks have a right to expect more. Had NJA management negotiated in good faith and avoided transparent delay tactics and an agreement had been made years ago, perhaps this thread would not have been an issue. Grump is merely stating that living in California is very difficult on an NJA salary.

Heavy - you need to do your research before you come here with those blanket statements about managements delay tactics.

The fact is that the union spent 3 years renegotiating every clause in the agreement. The union didnt have any interest in doing an agreement after 9/11....they knew if they did an agreement at that time they wouldnt be able to press for the raises that they wanted to get.

Living in California is very difficult on most people's salaries. I think this is why so many people are leaving the state for areas with a more affordable cost of living.

However, NJA wages compare favorably to the average wages for most Californians. The average HOUSEHOLD income in California is approximately $49,320, according to the California state website: http://www.dof.ca.gov/HTML/FS_DATA/LatestEconData/FS_Income.htm

All of this is a moot point though, since less than 5% of NJA pilots live in California....

The problem for NJA is that many, many current NJA pilots either are moving on or are seriously considering it with resumes out - that is going to come back and bite NJA in the a$$ soon... And then they are going to wonder why the experienced pilots they desire aren't interested in flying for NJA - because it has a BAD REPUTATION and it doesn't reward loyalty... Even E190 rates at Jet Blue are starting to look good in comparison.

This is exactly what I was talking about in my earlier posts. Let the free market determine the appropriate wage levels.

If NJA cant get enough pilots to meet thier needs then they will have to raise wages or improve the conditions in order to entice a sufficient number of people to work here.

And you may want to reconsider that JetBlue E190 rates comment. I posted a comparison of those rates to CURRENT NetJets rates over a month ago...

Years.. Jetblue.. NetJets
1..............4970......3130
2..............5040......3320
3..............5180......3930
4..............5320......4830
5..............5390......5080
6..............5530......5350
7..............5600......5630
8..............5740......6210
9..............5880......6470
10............5950......6730
11............6090......7030
12............6230......7330
13............6230......7650
14............6230......7980
Totals...79380....80670

Source: airlinepilotpay.com

And before Grump comes on here complaining that these rates are not valid because Jetblue doesnt have any E190's yet....

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050913/sptu001.html?.v=12

 

[Diesel]

around and around and around we go.

god it's fun to watch.

 

[Diesel]

slowing down, writing up things that they normally would not, etc....

ah yes the family guy mantra. We're slowing down. We're writing things up on planes that aren't broken. (mx must be magically fixing the non broken planes).

You had 4 posts right in a row trying to beat down the pilots. I do enjoy reading it because it gives a view of the other side's strategy.

The fractional forum used to be a fun place............ Back to the corp forum i go.

1:43 seconds is a record by the way.

 

[Heavy Set]

Heavy - you need to do your research before you come here with those blanket statements about managements delay tactics.

The fact is that the union spent 3 years renegotiating every clause in the agreement. The union didnt have any interest in doing an agreement after 9/11....they knew if they did an agreement at that time they wouldnt be able to press for the raises that they wanted to get.

Living in California is very difficult on most people's salaries. I think this is why so many people are leaving the state for areas with a more affordable cost of living.

However, NJA wages compare favorably to the average wages for most Californians. The average HOUSEHOLD income in California is approximately $49,320, according to the California state website: http://www.dof.ca.gov/HTML/FS_DATA/LatestEconData/FS_Income.htm

All of this is a moot point though, since less than 5% of NJA pilots live in California....




This is exactly what I was talking about in my earlier posts. Let the free market determine the appropriate wage levels.

If NJA cant get enough pilots to meet thier needs then they will have to raise wages or improve the conditions in order to entice a sufficient number of people to work here.

And you may want to reconsider that JetBlue E190 rates comment. I posted a comparison of those rates to CURRENT NetJets rates over a month ago...


And before Grump comes on here complaining that these rates are not valid because Jetblue doesnt have any E190's yet....

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050913/sptu001.html?.v=12

First of all, it's no secret that NJA management has been unwilling to sit down and constructively negotiate a wage that would retain and attract "loyal" pilots. In its own PR videos for owners, NJA claims that its pilots are among the most experienced and best-trained pilots in the aviation industry. Well, I doubt this is the case now as many of the better and more experienced pilots have either left or are seriously considering it. I know four pilots at NJA (one on the Excel, one on the X and two flying the Hawker 800XP). Two are former high-time airline pilots (furloughed) and two have military backgrounds with high times. Three of the four are currently interviewing with either top-notch Part 91 gig (GIV position on the West Coast - not California) or airline positions (interviews with Continental, Jet Blue and UPS already set up). Sure, go ahead and say, "let them go if they want to go..." Great attitude - clearly you don't care about your once loyal employees who had high expectations for NJA. That's a great message for any potential newhire out there!!!!! If you don't like it here, just get out and shut the door behind you....... Hey Family Guy, would you consider NJA a "happy family" like the one you would find at SWA? Doubt it.

As for the Jet Blue E190 wages, I am aware that there are no E190s officially operating yet. However, I saw one in the pattern at MCO last week and I know that Jet Blue is already training a bunch of newhires and Captain upgrades for the aircraft. Funny how you just show the E190 rates in this comparison. I hear the upgrade time on the E190 is about one year. Do you think Jet Blue pilots who get on the E190 will sit on that aircraft? Or, do you think they will go to the higher-paying A320 after their seat-lock expires? A320 Captain pay starts at $110/hr. and you could conceivably get that in 3-4 years depending upon growth. How does that compare to 3-4 years at NJA?

In any case, I was using the E190 rates as an example - at least Jet Blue offers the potential for increasing your income over the years (you can switch fleets and fly extra hours I am told). Plus, the environment there is very positive and supportive in comparison. UPS pays even better over the long run according to the latest figures. A good Part 91 job could easily pay $80-120K annually depending upon aircraft type from the get-go. How does NJA expect to attract "high time and experienced" pilots their owners believe they have if the pay rates are not even competitive? Do you think the acrimonious relationship between management and the pilots will help recruiting?

It is very clear from these posts that NJA management does not appreciate or respect their pilot group. The sad thing is that the NJA pilots are well aware of this and, in many cases, are discouraged and looking at alternatives. NJA was once considered one of the best opportunities in professional aviation - I remember discussions with my friends who were so thrilled to get an interview with NJA a few years back. Now, they are pessimistic about the situation and looking for contacts throughout the industry as they plan their exit strategies.

Family Guy does his very best to spin the situation but the message is very transparent. By the way, how much are you being paid by Netjets management to spin?

 

[Hogprint]

Famguy posted:

The union didnt have any interest in doing an agreement after 9/11....they knew if they did an agreement at that time they wouldnt be able to press for the raises that they wanted to get.

Wrong.

You've tried this before and we didn't let you get away with it. I guess you think if you let a few months go by you can push this revisionist history again.

The company was the one that shut down negotiations after 9/11. They pushed it back to December. Then they pushed it back another six months.

Nice try.

 

[Heavy Set]

Famguy posted:



Wrong.

You've tried this before and we didn't let you get away with it. I guess you think if you let a few months go by you can push this revisionist history again.

The company was the one that shut down negotiations after 9/11. They pushed it back to December. Then they pushed it back another six months.

Nice try.

These Spinmeisters (like FamilyGuy and Troll) are experienced and I am sure well paid... All they do is deny that problems exist and hope that their once loyal employees who are discouraged just leave... I wonder if Santulli and Boisture consulted Lorenzo before the negotiations?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I can argue that.

Its a tradeoff....give up some of the other perks that you've negotiated and you get more pay....its that simple.

NBAA wages are not applicable...not when you have much better work schedules, rules, benefits, stability, etc....

what a joke.

very very few real corp jobs have worse QOL than Netjets.

most shiver when they see your a/c and say, "damn those guys work their a$$es off for nothing".

rules? whats that mean? the 10 hrs you get in the local hilton? great rules...

With how hard they run you guys you practically need NBAAx2 to even justify it. I cant think of any corp guys I know who would keep thier NBAA numbers and go to Netjets to work that great "7 and 7". forget about it.