The RJDC is a cancer on the industry

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

Actually, I did not make your point. I stated that I will not commute to reserve for first year pay at ASA. There are a couple of reasons for this.
1. I am not in my first year.
2. I do not work for ASA.

I think that you have bought into management's line that the rj is only profitable at slave wages. You even included in your post a line about what the rjs "can" pay. The fact is, we have not yet establised that figure, but I guarantee it is higher than what has been negotiated by those who are currently flying them.

For the record, I believe there is a big difference between what the rj "can" pay and what it is paying now.

 

[RJFlyer]

It's interesting how those of you who oppose the RJDC are so sure it will fail (meaning it has no merit), and are so sure the DALPA grievance will succeed (meaning it does), yet you all so vigorously argue against the RJDC. If it is so obviously wrong, why bother arguing? A judge will see that in a second (as paraphrased by FDJ) and throw the whole thing out, right?

I believe much of what the RJDC suit alleges does have merit (and so do you, though you won't admit it), and this is why it scares you all so much. Why would ALPA be in settlement talks, if the suit had no merit?

While the results of the suit could possibly have a negative impact on the industry, it could just as possibly have a positive impact. I didn't bring the suit, and I haven't contributed, so I will personally just sit back and see what happens. There is nothing you or I can do to change what will result - unless you happen to be one of the plaintiffs and decide out of the goodness of your heart to drop the suit altogether.

I am almost positive a settlement will be reached. It is in nobody's best interest to go before a judge. I can't imagine what form that settlement will take. But here's what I'd like to see:

ALPA recognizes that they've negotiated the Delta contract in bad faith, as it applies to ASA and Comair, and agree to renegotiate the scope clause to properly address the wholly-owned issue. Maybe include ASA/CMR block hours in the "Delta system" block hours and a new cap for non-Delta-owned carriers. This would also give DALPA a further incentive to push for onelist. I realize they have no power to merge the carriers, but they can certainly apply pressure. As for the money, I don't think the RJDC can currently prove they were monetarily harmed, as Delta is claiming force-majeure on the furlough and scope portions of the Delta pilots' contract, and DCI is expanding.

How will this scenario destroy scope? All it does is redefine it as it applies to wholly-owned (or alter-ego, if you prefer) airlines at Delta. It has nothing to do with the industry or the profession as a whole, and could certainly result in a lot of good for those involved.

Rather than allowing management to 'farm out' flying to the RJ operators (read ASA and Comair), there will be a limit to how many RJs they can deploy. As others have pointed out, there is only a finite amount of concrete available. And the numbers of travellers will continue to recover. Americans have VERY short memories, when it comes to their convenience (or lack thereof). This will in time (and sooner, rather than later, I think)lead to a need for more large, mainline aircraft. Don't think for a minute that just because ASA/CMR pilots are paid 1/5 of what Delta pilots are paid, that management would rather carry those 200 passengers on 4 RJs instead of 1 767.

Well, that's my take. I say, the glass is half full.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

I appreciate your optimism, but I have a couple of points.

#1. It would be stupid of us not to take seriously a lawsuit which has this much potential to harm us all. That does not imply for a second that I believe it has merit. However, you never know what a judge will do. I don't think someone should win a judgement for spilling coffee on her crotch, either, but it happened. Not all successful lawsuits have merit.

#2. I don't mean to be rude, but you are smoking crack if you really believe that DALPA will ever agree to lift scope restrictions for ASA or CMR or anyone! Including Comasa in our block hour totals as you suggest is a pipedream. It will never happen without a judge mandating it, and we will appeal it into eternity. As far as settlements are concerned, we will leave ALPA way before ever agreeing to something like that. For the record, I believe the settlement offers have all come from the RJDC. I have seen none from ALPA. It appears that the rjdc is not as confident as they would have you believe, or they would never suggest settling out of court.

#3. You made a point that management would rather operate one full 767 than four rjs. I believe that you are incorrect, and I use Atlanta to Toronto as an example. Seven round trips a day on an rj. Could that support one 767? Of course. But management believes that travelers want choice in schedules. I don't disagree. I only have a problem with who is operating any of them over 35% of our block hours. Our contract, which the company signed, says it should be us.

 

[MetroSheriff]

It's interesting how those of you who oppose the RJDC are so sure it will fail (meaning it has no merit), and are so sure the DALPA grievance will succeed (meaning it does), yet you all so vigorously argue against the RJDC

While I oppose the RJDC, I have never ventured a guess as to the outcome. Given the proclivity of our justice system, the outcome is mere speculation. Success or failure rarely have meuch to do with merit.

As for the DALPA grievance, I think that is black and white. DAL signed a contract with their pilots. Period. To claim force majeur due to 9/11 is grave dancing, and ignores the slippery slope that ALL airlines financial situations were on prior to 9/11.

ALPA recognizes that they've negotiated the Delta contract in bad faith, as it applies to ASA and Comair, and agree to renegotiate the scope clause to properly address the wholly-owned issue. Maybe include ASA/CMR block hours in the "Delta system" block hours and a new cap for non-Delta-owned carriers. This would also give DALPA a further incentive to push for onelist. I realize they have no power to merge the carriers, but they can certainly apply pressure. As for the money, I don't think the RJDC can currently prove they were monetarily harmed, as Delta is claiming force-majeure on the furlough and scope portions of the Delta pilots' contract, and DCI is expanding.

I think that maybe you are not seeing the big picture for either DAL or the DCI W/O. Including ASA/Comair in the DAL system block hours would hurt DALPA tremendously, as it would allow mgt to use RJs and cheap labor (read ASA/Comair) as replacement flying at their leisure, with no incentive whatsoever to restore any higher paying mainline jobs or flying. That would then open the 34% of the allowed feed for outside "contract" partners (Skywest, Eagle, ACA, etc.)

Personally, I would like to see it (greivance) resolved in such away that the % that DALPA negotiated is enforced hard and fast, and take some wind out of the RJDC complaint by stipulating that the % which IS allowed is to performed ONLY by W/O carriers. This would maintain the integrity of the DALPA PWA, as it was negotiated, with reference to the %s, and with the contract carriers out of the picture, provide security and HUGE growth potential to the W/O carriers while staying under the %s established by the DALPA PWA. At that point, I think the RJDC would be essentially neutered. It would be hard for the RJDC to maintain their claims of foul play when DALPA had done something like that to provide job security and career enhancement to the DCI W/O in the terms of the PWA.

It's a nice thought anyway....

 

[prodigal]

???

Hey Braniff,
I'm not coming down on either side of the rjdc issue here but . . .
A couple of times you've made remarks to the effect that anyone who stays at a regional is either lazy or not educated enough to rise to the exalted level of a major airline. That's pretty arrogant. I'm sure there are plenty of regional guys who are satisfied with regional life, or, as in my case as an older pilot, have no realistic chance to make it to a major. Why should lowly regional pilots have to take it in the shorts just because they want (or have) to stay at a regional? You see, the regionals are not just a dues paying stepping stone for everyone.
And if you think this job is really hard, as you stated, I'd submit that you have led a pretty lucky and sheltered work life. Try going out and doing door to door sales or law enforcement if you think you have it so hard.
I have been self employed most of my adult life and know what it is like to live in the "real" economic world. Someone else also accurately pointed out that the airlines (yes, even the majors) exist for one reason, and one reason only: to MAKE A PROFIT at the business of moving people from point A to point B. It might even help to think that's it's almost only coincidental that they use airplanes to do so. They do not exist to supply jobs to even the most exalted amoung us. I have mixed feelings about unions, good and bad, but, as someone else also said, what good is the best contract in the industry if you're out of a job?
The airlines operate within this enviornment we call an economy and it's the economy, or the market, if you will, which will ultimately determine everything in the long run, not the unions and not a particular contract.
As for the rdjc issue, I can honestly see both sides as I don't have a dog in that fight (objectivity perhaps). Think maybe I'll hold out for Skywest, or maybe just be happy in my lowly (read non-major) part-time corp. gig.
Is anyone here really looking past their own self interests, at the REAL big picture?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Re: ???

Is anyone here really looking past their own self interests, at the REAL big picture?

Yes, Prodigal, I truly believe some of us are. On the other hand, there's the rjdc....

 

[Spectre]

Why are the majors (NWA and Continental) spinning off their wholely-owned regionals (ie. NWA and the all-new Pinnacle Airlines)?

 

[RJFlyer]

FDJ:

Re: point #1 - 'Not all successful lawsuits have merit.' - True. And if all settlement offers have come from RJDC, I'd like to see some evidence of that claim. Good luck getting any info about it out of ALPA. This is from RJDC's bulletin: "In response to ALPA’s request, we have formally submitted a proposal designed to foster a process that could resolve the numerous and complex issues in a credible and expeditious manner." I know the fact that it came from the RJDC website doesn't carry much weight with you, but I'm interested to see evidence from you to the contrary.

Re: point #2 - No, I'm not smoking crack, and you're not looking at my post as a whole, but rather on a sentence-by-sentence basis, apparently. I know DALPA would never do this on their own - they would be forced to act in a fair manner, either by settlement or by a judge. 'We will leave ALPA way before ever agreeing to something like that' - for the record, I believe that to be untrue.

Re: your point #3 - if Delta only offered 1 or 2 daily flights on a 767, you'd have a hard time filling them, as the passengers who want more travel choices would go elsewhere. But eventually some if not all of those RJs will be upgraded to larger equipment. And while writing this I just downloaded the latest flight schedules, and what do you know - there are 5 daily round-trips between ATL and YYZ, and 2 of them are MD-80's. Interesting...

 

[RJFlyer]

MetroSheriff:

Including ASA/Comair in the DAL system block hours would hurt DALPA tremendously, as it would allow mgt to use RJs and cheap labor (read ASA/Comair) as replacement flying at their leisure, with no incentive whatsoever to restore any higher paying mainline jobs or flying.

How do you figure? If there are 100 people wanting to fly at 8am, an RJ won't do. Period. Leo isn't stupid, and contrary to popular belief I'm sure he doesn't spend all his time and energy figuring out ways to screw the Delta pilots.

That would then open the 34% of the allowed feed for outside "contract" partners (Skywest, Eagle, ACA, etc.)

No, you just didn't understand what I was saying. Having DCI included in the block hours would be incentive for DALPA to more seriously pursue onelist. And I did say that the percentage for the non-W/O carriers would be renegotiated (i.e., downward).

Personally, I would like to see it (greivance) resolved in such away that the % that DALPA negotiated is enforced hard and fast, and take some wind out of the RJDC complaint by stipulating that the % which IS allowed is to performed ONLY by W/O carriers. This would maintain the integrity of the DALPA PWA, as it was negotiated, with reference to the %s, and with the contract carriers out of the picture, provide security and HUGE growth potential to the W/O carriers while staying under the %s established by the DALPA PWA. At that point, I think the RJDC would be essentially neutered. It would be hard for the RJDC to maintain their claims of foul play when DALPA had done something like that to provide job security and career enhancement to the DCI W/O in the terms of the PWA.

That is very true, and would be a pretty good solution to the problem. But would DALPA go for it? And if so, why haven't they already?

 

[av8instyle]

I just have to vent a little to the pro RJDC KKK:

Even though it takes several years to get to that 100K at a regional, do you really think you're not getting represented when you remember the fact that you made less than half that pay not five years ago?

Do you really think that the little RJDC Klan is more intelligent than the collective past and present ALPA? Because that's what it sounds like.

It seems to me that what you really want is the onelist. Which means that you would like a collective group of pilots that work for an airline that is not that hard to get on with to get a free ride into an airline that is EXTREMELY difficult to get on with. You should be so lucky.

My only hope is that after this whole RJDC fad is crushed, that a list of RJDC KKK members, similar to a SCAB list, is published and distributed. You can bet I'll use it!

Flame all you want, but the whole RJDC KKKthing is a disgrace to the industry and will only harm if it succeeds.

 

[MetroSheriff]

MetroSheriff:

No, you just didn't understand what I was saying. Having DCI included in the block hours would be incentive for DALPA to more seriously pursue onelist. And I did say that the percentage for the non-W/O carriers would be renegotiated (i.e., downward).

That is very true, and would be a pretty good solution to the problem. But would DALPA go for it? And if so, why haven't they already?

I think I missed the intent of your earlier statement. I read the earlier post and see what you were saying, and that makes sense. Sorry I misunderstood you.

 

[MetroSheriff]

I just have to vent a little to the pro RJDC KKK:

Even though it takes several years to get to that 100K at a regional, do you really think you're not getting represented when you remember the fact that you made less than half that pay not five years ago?

Do you really think that the little RJDC Klan is more intelligent than the collective past and present ALPA? Because that's what it sounds like.

It seems to me that what you really want is the onelist. Which means that you would like a collective group of pilots that work for an airline that is not that hard to get on with to get a free ride into an airline that is EXTREMELY difficult to get on with. You should be so lucky.

My only hope is that after this whole RJDC fad is crushed, that a list of RJDC KKK members, similar to a SCAB list, is published and distributed. You can bet I'll use it!

Flame all you want, but the whole RJDC KKKthing is a disgrace to the industry and will only harm if it succeeds.

Sir,

While I disagree with some of the RJDC methods comparing it to the KKK is offensive at best. As is your reference to scabs. In fact your entire post is fairly objectionable. If you have something usefull to add, whether you agree or disagree, post away, otherwise keep the flamebait to yourself.

 

[av8instyle]

While I disagree with some of the RJDC methods comparing it to the KKK is offensive at best. As is your reference to scabs. In fact your entire post is fairly objectionable. If you have something usefull to add, whether you agree or disagree, post away, otherwise keep the flamebait to yourself.

The RJDC is offensive at best! As are SCABS. In fact the RJDC motives are what is questionable. If you didn't want opinions, you're in the wrong country.

 

[73GDog]

ALPA recognizes that they've negotiated the Delta contract in bad faith, as it applies to ASA and Comair, and agree to renegotiate the scope clause to properly address the wholly-owned issue.



RJFlyer,
I am curious, did ALPA negotiate the Delta contract or did DALPA? It is my understanding that DALPA negotiated the contract for the Delta pilots however; I have been wrong before.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

#1. I found the settlement offer on the rjdc's website. I have not found one on ALPA's. You are correct that this does not mean that ALPA has not made one, but I believe that I am correct when I speculate that a plaintiff who had an airtight case and stood to win everything he wanted would not offer to settle.

#2. I believe that I have a much better handle on the mood of the Delta pilot than you do. Scope has become a HUGE issue, and you can be certain that we would leave ALPA before being forced to weaken our scope. I cannot force you to believe me, but I can tell you the current attitude of the Delta pilot group.

#3. I did not have the schedule in front of me when I posted. I was under the impression that we had switched to all crjs. I stand corrected, but my point still stands. Two MD-80's out of seven flights does not change my point. But I will say again, I have no problem with any of Leo's economic decisions. He is way smarter than I am, and if he believes that we need to switch to an all rj fleet, than I can't argue. I won't be happy about it, but he is the expert.

All I want is for him to comply with our contract. DCI can make up a certain percentage (depending on the year) of our total flying. If Leo wants to use rjs to make up more than that percentage, he is welcome to do so. But WE must fly them. All we are asking him to do is comply with the contract that he signed. I am not sure why that is so unpopular.