The RJDC is a cancer on the industry

[~~~^~~~]

Huck:

Good post. The conversation between Bob Arnold and Bill Buergey went "what would you think of a flow through" and Bob replied, "we don't think very much of it." Our MEC's were talking and these communications broke down over scope.

A flow through is not the answer. Reference Continental Express and Eagle. A flow through does not address the problem of having six different companies performing Delta domestic narrow body flying. The only solution is one list. However, the power players within the Delta MEC are more concerned about getting jobs for their old squadron buddies than they are fixing the alter ego airline problem. In other words, ALPA members flying Delta passengers at Delta Connection are below current military pilots on ALPA¡¦s list of concerns.

This union's first concern should be bringing pilots together.

Huck, an excellent example of what happens with complete cooperation from the feeder¡¦s MEC is US Air. As you can see, cooperating with the mainline MEC was a disaster. Their fleet replacement aircraft are going to other carriers and those pilots will lose their jobs as the Dash 8's are retired. Literally, ALPA is costing those pilots their careers, it is frightening.

ALPA got it wrong on the small jet issue. First, ALPA's biggest misperception is that small jets cost mainline jobs. A Canadair Regional Jet not any more of a threat to a 737, than a 737 is to a 777. The bigger airplane has twice the capacity, lower seat mile costs, and is used in a different market.

Second, ALPA does not want to acknowledge that Connection is just a smaller unit of capacity no different from any other narrow body domestic flying. We have many more similarities than the "trunk" and "feeder" airlines did. Some RJ's due replace older, less efficient mainline aircraft on routes that would be dropped completely as these airplanes disappear. ALPA's efforts to keep us on separate lists has PROMOTED a disparate cost structure which has aggravated mainline fleet replacement with small jets.

If you look at the growth patterns of airlines, the airlines with tight restrictions on the use of small jets (US Air, United) have done worse than the airlines with looser restrictions, Delta. Another example is Delta¡¦s fleet plan before and after Contract 2000. The airline went from a growth position to a diminishing fleet. We can argue RJDC positions all day, but in the end you have to admit that every economic prediction made by the RJDC leadership has subsequently been verified by Delta and ALPA. Maybe ALPA's economic war on the small jets at Connection is simply wrong.

The RJDC feels that scope (a necessary part of any contract) should not be used as a weapon against ALPA members at the same airline. Onelist is a win / win / win for Delta pilots, Connection pilots and our employer. The Connection MECs do not have the political power within ALPA to make onelist happen, it can only come from the mainline MEC.

Regards,
~~~^~~~ <--- Fins to the Left, if you don't like Buffet you would not understand.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Surplus and Fly Delta Jets:

Air France and Delta are not the same employer. According to the US goverment Delta and Delta Connection are.

We have the same union and the same employer. Our union should not be negotiating with our employer to harm pilots at either airline. The only way for ALPA to avoid the conflict of interest is to fight to merge the groups together under one MEC, with one negotiating agenda, one list.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[surplus1]

Surplus-

You seem to forget that Delta runs the reservation lines, makes the ticket stock, TELLS you what routes to fly and then DICTATES how much of the profit that your division keeps.

No Braniff, I don't forget that. How could I? My airline is a part of Delta Air Lines, therefore, I would hardly expect these items to be hadled by anyone else. I know you don't like to hear it but the truth is we are operationally intergrated with Delta. Totally and completely.

I expect Delta, Inc. to do ALL of the things you mention and I am quite happy with that. What I don't expect and will not accept is the idea that Delta pilots, the DMEC or the ALPA can dictate anything.

DCI is NOT independant. In fact, if it WAS an independent carrier completely with your own code, reservations system and marketing, you'd be no better off than Midway is/was.

I am well aware that we are not independent. I say again, we are fully operationally integrated with Delta.

Now, if we were not, your statement comparing us with Midway is absurd. Either you have no knowledge of the industry or you are trying to pull my chain. My airline (Comair) could have easily acquired a company like Midway with the chump change of one year's net profits. Your airline paid 1.8 billion dollars to buy the 80% of my airline that it did not already own and that after deliberately depressing the value of CMR stock prior to the purchase.

When the hiring restarts, apply for a global airline, if you qualify. If you don't, don't try to crap in my cereal.
Braniff

Don't get upset about my qualifications, Braniff. I'm convinced they exceed your own by a very wide margin. I have no desire to "crap in your cereal" or anyone elses'. I hope that the Company will soon recover from the problems our industry faces. I hope too that you and all airline pilots will benefit from that recovery. However, if you believe that this should equate to my feeling or being subserviant to you, you are missing the boat by miles. If that ruffles your pin feathers, well that's just too bad.

 

[Braniff]

DCI and Delta are not operationally connected. For example, have you compared a Delta flight plan and an ASA or CMR flight plan? Paying RJDC $30 should have imparted more information than that.

Do you use the same OCC we do? Where are your simulators? Do we attend the same "fleet common" training? Do we use the same bidding system? Nope x 4.

DCI doesn't even use DAL flights to deadhead on, in fact, if you have to dead head from FLL to MCO, they'll send you via ATL even though a CMR flight goes nonstop.

There is no operational integration between DCI and Delta mainline. I beg you to show me one shred of non-RJDC spittle as evidence.

I thought so.

Besides, if your qualifications were so godlike, why aren't you flying a UAL 747-400? THAT's the top of the world, airline-wise. But let me guess, you're going to save the world from the seat on a CL-65.

I've always been in favor of a flow through - not because of furlough protection, but to give those that are qualified a shot before we hire some bozo off the street.

However a 100% flow through wouldn't be that cool. I'll make this statement and even though I'll probably get a lot of hate mail for this, but the top-10% of ANY seniority list at any airline are where the real weirdoes are.

I don't think we have to take any person on the seniority list by default, but give the next guy in line that fully meets the minimum requirements a shot. If the minimum qualificaitons change, then put that pilot on the list then.

With all that being said, without a firewall stopping management from transferring narrowbody flying to the cheapest bidder and from divvying up widebody flying to codeshare, this career will continue eroding.

I hear lots of talk about making $100,000 flying an RJ. But that's after 18 years and what's so hot about that when a 2nd year 737-800 FO can almost make that sitting reserve with a "Low Yellow Slip" in.

Since we're "operationally integrated", I'm sure you know what a "low yellow slip" is, right?

Braniff

 

[MetroSheriff]

DCI doesn't even use DAL flights to deadhead on, in fact, if you have to dead head from FLL to MCO, they'll send you via ATL even though a CMR flight goes nonstop.


Braniff

Braniff,

You are correct on the rest of your post, I have to step in on the DH. I have DH, not commuted, but DH for company business and have ALWAYS ridden Delta. All of our positive space travel to/from DFW to ATL in on the mainline. We were wx cnx out of HSV a few weeks ago and rode back to DFW thru MOB on mainline. Not to nitpick, but just wanted to clear that up. On your other points you are 100% correct. Unless you want to talk about the napkins and bottled water that the RJDC is so quick to point out. LOL.

 

[RJFlyer]

Braniff,

It frightens me that when I am deadheading from DFW to ATL on Delta, that someone as immature as you might be in the cockpit.

 

[Draginass]

If operationally integrated, you should apply for single carrier status with the NMB.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Surplus,

Good post. I'm glad to see that you have given the matter some thought. I suck at the quote function, as has been proven in a previous post, so I will just address your points without quoting them. Please let me know if I miss any.

#1. I would like it to be said first that you and I agree on many points. I support onelist (only with a staple). I believe that ALPA, with the help of the Delta MEC, made a huge mistake in the early 90's when they allowed ANY jet to be flown by a connection carrier. If they had refused to allow jets to feed mainline, instead mandating that all jets be flown BY mainline, you and I might not be having this conversation. They (I wasn't at DAL yet!) made a huge mistake, and now we are trying to correct it. You are correct regarding Pogo's (actually, Walt Kelly's...I like trivia too!) quote. We screwed up.

Unfortunately, we have limited means to correct this mistake. The best is onelist. Unfortunately, I don't think that we will ever achieve it. Management is committed to exploiting the cost difference between our lists. I think that the fact that they accepted an 89 day strike proves their resolve. We have no legal authority to force a merger, even if the PID had been approved. It is my opinion that even if all three groups were committed enough to strike for the cause, management would sell ASA and CMR before they would merge the lists. However, I am not opposed to trying, on one condition...A staple must be agreed on in advance. Right or wrong, that is a political reality. By necessity, the Delta pilots would have to make the most sacrifice to merge the lists. That is not objectionable to me. I am not selfish, and I believe that this is a good cause. However, I will not sacrifice a single number of my seniority. Nor will anyone I have ever asked. I do not know if that caveat is acceptable to the ASA and CMR pilots. If it is not, they can still attempt to merge our lists. I just wouldn't expect any help from the Delta pilots. It will be interesting to see what the ASA and CMR MECs do. I find it very interesting that they have already proposed what the merged seniority list of ASA and CMR would look like, but have not included Delta in their fictional merger. To me, that gives the appearance that they are hoping for more than a staple.

The only other means of protection left is scope. I think that the ASA pilots are learning now the pitfalls of not having a strong scope clause. It is exactly for this reason that we are committed to protecting ours.

#2. I posted language from the lawsuit. I believe that the language is clear and unambiguous. I posted what I feel that the results of a rjdc win would be. You correctly stated that my points were only my opinion. Your opinion differs.

However, I feel that I backed up my opinion with the suit's actual language. Your opinion is backed up only with conjecture. Without meaning any disrespect to you, your guesses about what a judge might or might not do does not alleviate my fears. For the record, I hope that you are right. I fear that you are not.

#3. Much of your post deals with your perception of fair treatment for all members of ALPA. The constitution and bylaws were written to ensure that fair treatment. If they were not followed during the PID, then I fully support your right to sue. I find nothing wrong with a lawsuit designed to force a neutral to examine our c and bl's and ensure that they are followed. However, the rjdc's lawsuit goes far beyond that. They lost my support when they included punitive damages of $100,000,000 and "no less than $2,000,000" per comair pilot. They angered me greatly when they attacked a negotiated and hard-won section of our contract. By including these things, they have gone from altrustic seekers of fairness to selfish malcontents out only for their own gain.

That being said, I don't think that any union of our size has the ability to represent everyone in the same way. Everyone should have equal access to union benefits, and I feel that they do, despite the fact that certain groups pay more (not only as a result of sheer numbers, as you assert, but on a per pilot basis as well). However, due to the amout of members and the variety of views, not everyone's agenda can possibly be advanced. It is the job of the union to protect the interests of the majority of its members when there is a conflict. It is also the job of the union to advance the profession. I believe that what they are attempting to do with strong scope clauses. I will give you an example. I flew for Mesa airlines. We were represented by ALPA. Yet we codeshared for U. Their scope clause (negotiated by ALPA) prevented us from flying anything over 50 seats. Therefore, it can be argued that ALPA negotiated a contract that harmed my career. I chose to, and still do, look at it differently. By preventing us from flying larger airplanes, if forced mainline to operate them instead. That helped, not hindered my career as I and the vast majority of commuter pilots wanted to fly for a mainline carrier. Therefore, I believe that ALPA helped my career in the long run. It may have hurt a few senior guys like the leadership of the rjdc. However, it helped the majority of the members. As far as I am concerned, that is all that you can ask of any union.

 

[Braniff]

I may sound immature, but I'm simply sick and tired of RJDC's distortions. Whenever ANYONE puts a little heat on the debate, they either disappear, talk about how DAL pilots are a bunch of arrogant ex-fighter jocks, talk about how we thumbed our nose at them when management purchased them, etc.

They're like the Taliban. Instead of putting up a forum on rjdefense.com, you guys are spreading into cells around the internet and we've got to constantly hunt you guys down and counter your arguments.

If rjdefense.com had any balls, they'd put a forum at THEIR website and stop jumping around cyberspace playing peek-a-boo.

 

[RJFlyer]

FDJ - good post. I have a few questions, though.

It will be interesting to see what the ASA and CMR MECs do. I find it very interesting that they have already proposed what the merged seniority list of ASA and CMR would look like, but have not included Delta in their fictional merger. To me, that gives the appearance that they are hoping for more than a staple.

How does the proposed merged seniority list of ASA/CMR give the appearance of anything in regard to a DL/ASA/CMR onelist? It would seem to me to be the easiest route to merge the two smaller lists, then deal with the larger later (since it seems the DALPA MEC is reluctant to even consider it).

Re: point #3 - I agree that the monetary figures the RJDC is including are rather preposterous, but ask your MEC negotiators whether they walk into negotiations asking only for the minimum they are willing to accept. I think not. I believe this is the RJDC's 'starting point,' from which some meaningful settlement can arise.

certain groups pay more (not only as a result of sheer numbers, as you assert, but on a per pilot basis as well)

This is true, but we all pay the same percentage of our income. If you deserve 'more' representation than I do simply because you are paid more, then does the 777 DL captain deserve 'more' representation than the 737 DL FO? I don't think so.

Their scope clause (negotiated by ALPA) prevented us from flying anything over 50 seats. Therefore, it can be argued that ALPA negotiated a contract that harmed my career. I chose to, and still do, look at it differently. By preventing us from flying larger airplanes, if forced mainline to operate them instead. That helped, not hindered my career as I and the vast majority of commuter pilots wanted to fly for a mainline carrier.

True again, but the economic realities (both as a result of the recession and the public's altered view of flying) have dramatically changed. Where there used to be enough people on the DFW-MLU (as an example) flights to justify a larger aircraft, there no longer are. So rather than give up flights to/from MLU altogether, they have been 'downgraded' to the RJ, which can still operate the route profitably. This applies to the 70-seater as well. The smallest aircraft DL operates is a 107-seat configuration 737-200. The CR7 can still carry 45-50 passengers profitably, where the 737 can't. But instead of allowing the company to operate profitably, your DALPA would rather have nobody flying to MLU, or have the company continue to operate at a loss so no DL pilots are furloughed.

Don't get me wrong, I think the fact that DL pilots are on the street sucks. But the fact remains that the sooner the load factors improve on the DCI routes, the sooner DL mainline can come in and take over those routes once again, and my RJ can be re-deployed elsewhere.