The RJDC is a cancer on the industry

[FlyDeltasJets]

Timebuilder,

You may or may not be correct regarding the future use of rjs. But you are missing the point. You claim that mainline jobs age going to become more and more scarce. On that point, we agree...IF the rjdc is successful. Our scope clause is designed to foster the growth of mainline jobs, and to prevent management from replacing us with lower paid pilots. We are fighting very hard to ensure that what you predict does not occur, so you will have a mainline job opportunity when you are ready.

If the wave of the future is rjs, then great. But according to our contract, they must be flown by Delta pilots once our negotiated block hour limits are exceeded. Translation: more mainline positions for guys like you.

If you do consider Delta a "Dream Job", then you should be "highly motivated" to hope that we defeat the rjdc.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Timebuilder,

If the wave of the future is rjs, then great. But according to our contract, they must be flown by Delta pilots once our negotiated block hour limits are exceeded. Translation: more mainline positions for guys like you.

If you do consider Delta a "Dream Job", then you should be "highly motivated" to hope that we defeat the rjdc.

Delta is a dream job. I for one would HAPPILY fly an RJ on a mainline contract. In all honesty, I would fly a C-172 on a mianline contract, if it paid well and gave me 18 days off per month. When it comes to size of equipment, it matters very little to me. It is all about QOL, and time with my family. When I am 60, no one will remember or care how big my airplane was, only how good of a father I was and how well I was able to provide (money and time) for my family.

Regardless, the only way that will EVER happen is if mgt is precluded from farming out more than their contractual limits to cheaper subcontractors. To me, that means supporting mainline in their scope greivance, not helping management open the door to abrogation of scope via the RJDC.

In all fairness, I don't think that it the intent of the RJDC, I just fear that will be the result if they are sucessfull.

 

[Braniff]

Plus, the RJDC is short sighted.

What is happening to mainline WILL happen to CMR or ASA once they reach a certain size.

Management will realize that CMR or ASA has reached the point where they're controlling too much of the pie and voila! New DCI carrier.

This new DCI carrier will again load up on pilots dying to build turbine time to get hired at UAL or AMR and more than happy to fly for 1/2 of the money you're making (hence an RJ-70 captain being thrilled to fly for $100K/year while a 737-700 Captain makes DOUBLE that)

Since RJDC pissed on scope, there would be nothing in the world to stop management from shifting flying to the brand new DCI carrier.

It's happening now. What do you think Skywest is doing at DFW? Or ACJet at CVG? It bet you that if ACjet came to Delta and said, "Hey, we'll fly that route for 40% less", Delta would shift that route to ACjet with the speed of a third-grader chasing the ice cream truck.

In another 15 years, the old adage of "...son, back when I was new hire, a captain could afford to purchase a 'cadillac a month'" will be replaced by "...son, back when I was a new hire, a captain could afford to live outside of section-8 rent controlled government housing"

Braniff

 

[MetroSheriff]

Plus, the RJDC is short sighted.

What is happening to mainline WILL happen to CMR or ASA once they reach a certain size.

Management will realize that CMR or ASA has reached the point where they're controlling too much of the pie and voila! New DCI carrier.

This new DCI carrier will again load up on pilots dying to build turbine time to get hired at UAL or AMR and more than happy to

Since RJDC pissed on scope, there would be nothing in the world to stop management from shifting flying to the brand new DCI carrier.

It's happening now. What do you think Skywest is doing at DFW? Or ACJet at CVG? It bet you that if ACjet came to Delta and said, "Hey, we'll fly that route for 40% less", Delta would shift that route to ACjet with the speed of a third-grader chasing the ice cream truck.

Braniff

Talk about short sighted. With all the leverage DALPA has, mgt is trying to get around their contract, imagine the carnage when mgt decides that ASA/Comair operating costs Are too high. Skywest will be everywhere. With no union on the property, they are the perfect tool with which mgt can steamroll the W/O. With the leverage we have, we will be toast.

 

[RJFlyer]

FDJ:

One poster even used the fact that ASA does not have many furloughed Delta guys applying as evidence of this.

Actually, I was saying that they're not applying because they don't want to fly it for what the RJ can pay.

For the record, I will not apply to ASA because I will not commute to reserve for first year f/o pay at ASA. Been there, done that.

You have made my point exactly.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

Actually, I did not make your point. I stated that I will not commute to reserve for first year pay at ASA. There are a couple of reasons for this.
1. I am not in my first year.
2. I do not work for ASA.

I think that you have bought into management's line that the rj is only profitable at slave wages. You even included in your post a line about what the rjs "can" pay. The fact is, we have not yet establised that figure, but I guarantee it is higher than what has been negotiated by those who are currently flying them.

For the record, I believe there is a big difference between what the rj "can" pay and what it is paying now.

 

[RJFlyer]

It's interesting how those of you who oppose the RJDC are so sure it will fail (meaning it has no merit), and are so sure the DALPA grievance will succeed (meaning it does), yet you all so vigorously argue against the RJDC. If it is so obviously wrong, why bother arguing? A judge will see that in a second (as paraphrased by FDJ) and throw the whole thing out, right?

I believe much of what the RJDC suit alleges does have merit (and so do you, though you won't admit it), and this is why it scares you all so much. Why would ALPA be in settlement talks, if the suit had no merit?

While the results of the suit could possibly have a negative impact on the industry, it could just as possibly have a positive impact. I didn't bring the suit, and I haven't contributed, so I will personally just sit back and see what happens. There is nothing you or I can do to change what will result - unless you happen to be one of the plaintiffs and decide out of the goodness of your heart to drop the suit altogether.

I am almost positive a settlement will be reached. It is in nobody's best interest to go before a judge. I can't imagine what form that settlement will take. But here's what I'd like to see:

ALPA recognizes that they've negotiated the Delta contract in bad faith, as it applies to ASA and Comair, and agree to renegotiate the scope clause to properly address the wholly-owned issue. Maybe include ASA/CMR block hours in the "Delta system" block hours and a new cap for non-Delta-owned carriers. This would also give DALPA a further incentive to push for onelist. I realize they have no power to merge the carriers, but they can certainly apply pressure. As for the money, I don't think the RJDC can currently prove they were monetarily harmed, as Delta is claiming force-majeure on the furlough and scope portions of the Delta pilots' contract, and DCI is expanding.

How will this scenario destroy scope? All it does is redefine it as it applies to wholly-owned (or alter-ego, if you prefer) airlines at Delta. It has nothing to do with the industry or the profession as a whole, and could certainly result in a lot of good for those involved.

Rather than allowing management to 'farm out' flying to the RJ operators (read ASA and Comair), there will be a limit to how many RJs they can deploy. As others have pointed out, there is only a finite amount of concrete available. And the numbers of travellers will continue to recover. Americans have VERY short memories, when it comes to their convenience (or lack thereof). This will in time (and sooner, rather than later, I think)lead to a need for more large, mainline aircraft. Don't think for a minute that just because ASA/CMR pilots are paid 1/5 of what Delta pilots are paid, that management would rather carry those 200 passengers on 4 RJs instead of 1 767.

Well, that's my take. I say, the glass is half full.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

I appreciate your optimism, but I have a couple of points.

#1. It would be stupid of us not to take seriously a lawsuit which has this much potential to harm us all. That does not imply for a second that I believe it has merit. However, you never know what a judge will do. I don't think someone should win a judgement for spilling coffee on her crotch, either, but it happened. Not all successful lawsuits have merit.

#2. I don't mean to be rude, but you are smoking crack if you really believe that DALPA will ever agree to lift scope restrictions for ASA or CMR or anyone! Including Comasa in our block hour totals as you suggest is a pipedream. It will never happen without a judge mandating it, and we will appeal it into eternity. As far as settlements are concerned, we will leave ALPA way before ever agreeing to something like that. For the record, I believe the settlement offers have all come from the RJDC. I have seen none from ALPA. It appears that the rjdc is not as confident as they would have you believe, or they would never suggest settling out of court.

#3. You made a point that management would rather operate one full 767 than four rjs. I believe that you are incorrect, and I use Atlanta to Toronto as an example. Seven round trips a day on an rj. Could that support one 767? Of course. But management believes that travelers want choice in schedules. I don't disagree. I only have a problem with who is operating any of them over 35% of our block hours. Our contract, which the company signed, says it should be us.

 

[MetroSheriff]

It's interesting how those of you who oppose the RJDC are so sure it will fail (meaning it has no merit), and are so sure the DALPA grievance will succeed (meaning it does), yet you all so vigorously argue against the RJDC

While I oppose the RJDC, I have never ventured a guess as to the outcome. Given the proclivity of our justice system, the outcome is mere speculation. Success or failure rarely have meuch to do with merit.

As for the DALPA grievance, I think that is black and white. DAL signed a contract with their pilots. Period. To claim force majeur due to 9/11 is grave dancing, and ignores the slippery slope that ALL airlines financial situations were on prior to 9/11.

ALPA recognizes that they've negotiated the Delta contract in bad faith, as it applies to ASA and Comair, and agree to renegotiate the scope clause to properly address the wholly-owned issue. Maybe include ASA/CMR block hours in the "Delta system" block hours and a new cap for non-Delta-owned carriers. This would also give DALPA a further incentive to push for onelist. I realize they have no power to merge the carriers, but they can certainly apply pressure. As for the money, I don't think the RJDC can currently prove they were monetarily harmed, as Delta is claiming force-majeure on the furlough and scope portions of the Delta pilots' contract, and DCI is expanding.

I think that maybe you are not seeing the big picture for either DAL or the DCI W/O. Including ASA/Comair in the DAL system block hours would hurt DALPA tremendously, as it would allow mgt to use RJs and cheap labor (read ASA/Comair) as replacement flying at their leisure, with no incentive whatsoever to restore any higher paying mainline jobs or flying. That would then open the 34% of the allowed feed for outside "contract" partners (Skywest, Eagle, ACA, etc.)

Personally, I would like to see it (greivance) resolved in such away that the % that DALPA negotiated is enforced hard and fast, and take some wind out of the RJDC complaint by stipulating that the % which IS allowed is to performed ONLY by W/O carriers. This would maintain the integrity of the DALPA PWA, as it was negotiated, with reference to the %s, and with the contract carriers out of the picture, provide security and HUGE growth potential to the W/O carriers while staying under the %s established by the DALPA PWA. At that point, I think the RJDC would be essentially neutered. It would be hard for the RJDC to maintain their claims of foul play when DALPA had done something like that to provide job security and career enhancement to the DCI W/O in the terms of the PWA.

It's a nice thought anyway....

 

[prodigal]

???

Hey Braniff,
I'm not coming down on either side of the rjdc issue here but . . .
A couple of times you've made remarks to the effect that anyone who stays at a regional is either lazy or not educated enough to rise to the exalted level of a major airline. That's pretty arrogant. I'm sure there are plenty of regional guys who are satisfied with regional life, or, as in my case as an older pilot, have no realistic chance to make it to a major. Why should lowly regional pilots have to take it in the shorts just because they want (or have) to stay at a regional? You see, the regionals are not just a dues paying stepping stone for everyone.
And if you think this job is really hard, as you stated, I'd submit that you have led a pretty lucky and sheltered work life. Try going out and doing door to door sales or law enforcement if you think you have it so hard.
I have been self employed most of my adult life and know what it is like to live in the "real" economic world. Someone else also accurately pointed out that the airlines (yes, even the majors) exist for one reason, and one reason only: to MAKE A PROFIT at the business of moving people from point A to point B. It might even help to think that's it's almost only coincidental that they use airplanes to do so. They do not exist to supply jobs to even the most exalted amoung us. I have mixed feelings about unions, good and bad, but, as someone else also said, what good is the best contract in the industry if you're out of a job?
The airlines operate within this enviornment we call an economy and it's the economy, or the market, if you will, which will ultimately determine everything in the long run, not the unions and not a particular contract.
As for the rdjc issue, I can honestly see both sides as I don't have a dog in that fight (objectivity perhaps). Think maybe I'll hold out for Skywest, or maybe just be happy in my lowly (read non-major) part-time corp. gig.
Is anyone here really looking past their own self interests, at the REAL big picture?