The RJDC is a cancer on the industry

[RJFlyer]

Force Majeure continued

FDJ:

I tried to get more monthly traffic reports, but the links are all dead. Regarding DAL financials, check out this link: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020131/atth007_1.html

"Delta Air Lines reported a net loss of $486 million and a loss per share of $3.97 for the December 2001 quarter, excluding unusual items, as described below. This compares to net income of $79 million and diluted earnings per share of $0.60 for the December 2000 quarter."

What was different about 4th Q 2001 and 4th Q 2000? The Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. In 4th Q 2000, the economy was already weak, so that is not the answer.

"after adjusting for reduced flying by some Delta pilots in December 2000, mainline capacity was down 15.0 percent for the quarter. Load factor for the quarter was 63.6 percent compared to 68.9 percent for the same period a year ago."

So capacity was down, and on that reduced capacity, load factor was down. But Delta should continue to operate empty jets so you have a job.

"For the full year 2001, Delta reported a net loss of $1.0 billion" and "a net loss of $486 million and a loss per share of $3.97 for the December 2001 quarter." You can't tell me that 1/2 of the yearly loss in one quarter was not due primarily to the 9/11 attacks.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

I do not deny that 9/11 had a devastating effect on the industry. I do deny that it conforms to the requirements specified in our contract which would allow furloughs.

As far as the block hour grievance, I don't think that anyone would argue that it is "beyond the company's control" to put rjs on mainline to conform with the contract they signed.

I know that you are rooting for your fellow pilots to win the furlough grievance so we can get back to work, and we appreciate your support.

 

[73GDog]

RJFlyer,
I do not think a formal declaration of war has been stated. If so, why are the detainees in Guantanamo Bay not prisoners of war? Over the past ten years we have been involved in numerous conflicts like the one we are involved with today. Somalia and Bosnia ring a bell. As I have stated before, I could be wrong however; I do not recall a formal declaration of war being issued by the United States Government but rather the catch phrase, "War on Terrorism". We will see how the arbitrator interprets this soon enough. I think the arbitrator will find middle ground meaning, Delta will get a percentage of the furloughs it desires but not all due to the fact the economy was headed toward a recession prior to 9-11. Then again, what do I know? Stranger things have happened.

 

[RJFlyer]

FDJ:

I do deny that it conforms to the requirements specified in our contract which would allow furloughs.

That is what the arbitrator will decide. I believe you are wrong.

As far as the block hour grievance, I don't think that anyone would argue that it is "beyond the company's control" to put rjs on mainline to conform with the contract they signed.

If that is what DALPA believes, then why haven't they put a proposal to the company to start flying those RJs? I think its because mainline pilots don't really want to fly RJs - and certainly not at a payrate that is lower than their pre-9/11 level. Why must it be up to the company to propose this? I'm pretty sure DALPA has put proposals to the company before on other issues. Why not now?

I know that you are rooting for your fellow pilots to win the furlough grievance so we can get back to work, and we appreciate your support.

Oooh, ouch. Yes, I am rooting for you to win your grievance so you can get back to work and I can be furloughed.

73GDog: The Vietnam War was never officially declared a 'war' either ('police action,' I think it was?), but are you really going to tell me that it wasn't? The Korean War was likewise never declared a 'war.' I defy you to tell that to a Korean War vet. Bosnia and Somalia are nothing like what we have going on now. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Bosnians/Serbs/Somalis never blew up 2500 civilians on our soil by commandeering 4 airliners and using them as guided weapons of mass destruction. That takes 9/11 to another level entirely.

I think you are absolutely right about what the arbitrator will decide. But the end result will be that there will still be Delta pilots furloughed, and the company's actions will have been found to be in line with the 'force majeure' clause in the contract. Do I think that's a good thing? No I do not. But sometimes real life gets in the way of the utopia the unions would like to create.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FDJ:
That is what the arbitrator will decide. I believe you are wrong.
If that is what DALPA believes, then why haven't they put a proposal to the company to start flying those RJs? I think its because mainline pilots don't really want to fly RJs - and certainly not at a payrate that is lower than their pre-9/11 level. Why must it be up to the company to propose this? I'm pretty sure DALPA has put proposals to the company before on other issues. Why not now?

Oooh, ouch. Yes, I am rooting for you to win your grievance so you can get back to work and I can be furloughed.

First of all, we already have made such a proposal. It is called the PWA. If the company wants to fly rjs over the negotiated block hour limit, they must be flown by mainline. That will be the crux of our block hour grievance.

Secondly, our furlough grievance has nothing at all to do with a DCI furlough. Nor does our block hour grievance. A win in either case will not force the furlough of a single DCI pilot. A block hour win might slow your growth a bit, but will not prompt a single furlough. Don't believe the lies of the rjdc.

 

[RJFlyer]

Do the math. The numbers don't lie.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of all of the "don't believe the RJDC lies" rhetoric. Show me some numbers that prove they are lying, and I just might believe you.

And where in the PWA does it cover mainline flying RJ's?

 

[73GDog]

RJFlyer,
How many troops were involved in the Korean War? What about Vietnam? The number involved with the current war on terrorism more closely resembles the numbers involved in the Bosnian conflict. Who have we declared war against? What country? Your support for fellow aviators and there fight to protect there PWA is truly appreciated. Although I do not support the ASA/Comair pilots on many key issues, I never hesitated in writing a check, actually several checks, to the Comair strike fund. The difference beteween you and most of the professional pilots is that they support and promote the profession. You must be the type guy management dreams about at night. Cheers!

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Do the math. The numbers don't lie.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of all of the "don't believe the RJDC lies" rhetoric. Show me some numbers that prove they are lying, and I just might believe you.

And where in the PWA does it cover mainline flying RJ's?

Our PWA states that the company can only farm out a certain percentage of our flying. It does not say that rjs cannot be flown by mainline. Management seems intent on flying hundereds of rjs. They are fully able to do so. However, according to our contract, they must be flown by mainline pilots once exceeding the contractual limits.

As far as you being tired of the rjdc lies, I would suggest that your issue is with the liars, not those who point out the lies. I have illustrated their lies in many posts. I frankly am not concerned whether you believe me or not.

However, I will say this. DCI flying has only recently exceeded the block hour limit. As such, no furloughs should be necessary. If they are, it is not our fault. It is the fault of a management who would ignore our contract. I suggest that your fight is with them. They knew the rules. They chose to ignore them.

By the way, I could understand you not supporting our block hour grievance. But I find it pretty objectionable that you would not support our no furlough grievance. The furlough grievance does not affect you at all. The only thing it would mean is that illegally furloughed pilots would have their jobs back. Seems like something we should all fight for.

 

[Tim47SIP]

FDJ ,73G, and others. I personally hope your furlough greivance works and all of those guys come back. But I do have to wonder how the arbitrator will look at things. I agree with you that Delta was having trouble pre 911, but it can be argured that Delta could have continued without layoffs providing 911 never happened. It can be further argued that 911 exascerbated (sp?) Deltas financial problems and caused almost double the losses.
Additionally, even with the black and white writing of the contract, how will the arbitrator substantiate bringing back all of the pilots and none of the other 10000 or so unemployed workers that did not have a contract. I think it would be very dificult for him to justify this. If he did side with DALPA, he would be in a way, punishing the non union employees for not having the same contract (even though it is there fault for not getting a contract). Personally, I think that he is in a very precarious position and will more than likeley have to go with the political side, what ever the public opinion is at the time. Sorry for the terrible spelling.

 

[av8instyle]

Here is an opinion for you. Grow up and get a life.

Geez thanks, I guess I didn't realize how much I needed to do that. I guess you're still hurt by our last conversation where you were wrong, wrong, wrong, but didn't have the b@lls to admit it. Oh yeah, I forgot, Fighter pilots didn't do that in YOUR day.

 

[skydiverdriver]

FDJ,
I think you are a good debater, and I appreciate the intellegent and gentlemanly way you handle yourself. However, I would have one suggestion for you. I find it difficult to read your posts when you keep calling someone elses opinions a lie. I know you are upset at the rjdc, and think they are suing you personally, however, if they believe that your grievance on the rj's may cause furloughs at DCI, how do you know that's not true? Now, if you say you just know it, and you are smarter than me, than that's just arrogance. And, I don't think that's like you. Just a suggestion, soften the language a bit, call someone elses opinion wrong, but not a lie. Just a suggestion. Good luck to you.

 

[Boeingman]

Geez thanks, I guess I didn't realize how much I needed to do that. I guess you're still hurt by our last conversation where you were wrong, wrong, wrong, but didn't have the b@lls to admit it. Oh yeah, I forgot, Fighter pilots didn't do that in YOUR day.

Hurt? You really are full of yourself aren't you?

Do you spend a great deal of time out on sick leave? You must be always pulling muscles in your arms patting yourself on the back so often. Perhaps you can see some surgeon with as much training like us fighter pilots to fix it? Sarcasim heavily applied here.

I spent 25 months honoring an ALPA picket line. I do not need some hothead like you (who sounds like he was in grade school at the time) to tell me what opinions I should form about anyone.
The world does not revolve around you or your ideals.

I'm off to Europe. I'll be waiting with baited breath for your sophmoric diatribe filled reply when I return.

 

[ifly4food]

FDJ,
I think you are a good debater, and I appreciate the intellegent and gentlemanly way you handle yourself. However, I would have one suggestion for you. I find it difficult to read your posts when you keep calling someone elses opinions a lie. I know you are upset at the rjdc, and think they are suing you personally, however, if they believe that your grievance on the rj's may cause furloughs at DCI, how do you know that's not true? Now, if you say you just know it, and you are smarter than me, than that's just arrogance. And, I don't think that's like you. Just a suggestion, soften the language a bit, call someone elses opinion wrong, but not a lie. Just a suggestion. Good luck to you.

Note to FDJ: Pleas do come up with some proof that a furlough won't be necessary at DCI. I'd like to see you end the argument above. If the RJDC can do some "creative accounting" why can't we?

Note to SDD: There you go again. Even if he did prove you were wrong, by past performance, I conjecture you would just ignore it than say 3 days later that nobody's proven you wrong. Trying to convince you strong RJDC supporters that the RJDC is wrong is like trying to convince a terrorist that Allah doesn't really like killing people.
You're really not the one we're trying to change the mind of here. We know how you feel and believe it or not, we accept that. I'm fighting for the "undecided" faction that should see the truth; not just the spin put out by the RJDC.

There, I didn't use the word "lies".

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

SDD,

Thank you for your post, and the compliments. I have enjoyed our debate as well.

I believe that the rjdc does lie. For proof, I invite you to visit their websight. On the very first page they write that ALPA's "objective is to limit the number, routes, and seating capacity of the enormously popular rj." That is a blatant lie, designed only to increase support of communities served by the rjs. The truth is that management can use as many rjs as they want, on whatever routes they want, whenever they want, and the rjdc knows it. They know the truth, and they choose to print the opposite. I don't know what you would have me call it, but it certainly isn't just an opinion. I believe it is a lie. I apologize if that offends you, but I know of no other word for it.

IFFF has asked me to prove that the rjdc is lying about the furloughs at DCI. I will attempt to do so, but I am not privy to the numbers at this point. The only information I have is the fact that our block hour percentages were only exceeded within the past couple of weeks, hence the recent filing of the grievance. I don't think than many were hired by DCI in the last two weeks, so I do not believe that they will be forced to furlough any. As a matter of fact, much DCI flying has been announced, but not launched in the last month. It is for that reason that ASA and CMR have announced future hiring plans. Notice I said "future". Also, please keep in mind that Delta has publically stated that they plan to increase flying (though not as much as I would like) for the summer. That increase of flying will have the effect of bringing DCI closer to the allowed percentage. I don't have numbers handy, but I do have common sense. If DCI did not exceed the block hour limits until a few weeks ago, and they have not hired many in the last few weeks, and we plan to increase service shortly, it stands to reason that DCI will not be overstaffed. However, if management continues to ignore our PWA, than I have no future predictions. I suggest that the ball is now in their hands, and if their future actions cause furloughs, than you have a legitamate beef, not with us but with them.

I have not been able to prove that the rjdc is lying in this case, as I do not have access to the exact numbers at this time. I will attempt to get them. In the meantime, I will accept SDD's advice and change my language to the following...

The rjdc has shown a propensity to lie in the past. It is my belief that they are doing so again, but I cannot prove it yet. However, all of the public information, as well as common sense, indicate another rjdc lie. Until it is proven, however, I will call it a difference of opinion.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FDJ ,73G, and others. I personally hope your furlough greivance works and all of those guys come back. But I do have to wonder how the arbitrator will look at things. I agree with you that Delta was having trouble pre 911, but it can be argured that Delta could have continued without layoffs providing 911 never happened. It can be further argued that 911 exascerbated (sp?) Deltas financial problems and caused almost double the losses.
Additionally, even with the black and white writing of the contract, how will the arbitrator substantiate bringing back all of the pilots and none of the other 10000 or so unemployed workers that did not have a contract. I think it would be very dificult for him to justify this. If he did side with DALPA, he would be in a way, punishing the non union employees for not having the same contract (even though it is there fault for not getting a contract). Personally, I think that he is in a very precarious position and will more than likeley have to go with the political side, what ever the public opinion is at the time. Sorry for the terrible spelling.

Thank you for your good wishes regarding our grievance. I do appreciate it.

As I have said before, there is no doubt that 9/11 caused financial harm to Delta. However, the contract specifically prevents them from furloughing for financial reasons.

Regarding your point that an arbitrator's decision might be construed as unfair to non-union employees, I have a couple of points. First of all, the only group to suffer involuntary layoffs are the pilots. Second of all, it is not the arbitrator's responsability to consider anything but the language in our contract. That is his job, and having been to the grievance hearing, I can tell you that other employee groups never came up, at least while I was present. After watching the proceedings and listening to his questions, I came away believing that he is only interested in the language of our contract. That is his job, and I hope and believe that he will do it well.