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SWAPA looking to capture more Capt seats

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Lear, I'll put this forward one last time as a solution to all AT pilots problems: vote ALPA out, vote SWAPA in as your bargaining agent, and everyone gets full pay now, all captains get full SWA pay, 737 and 717.

Our line building comes to play, our min guarantee and reserve rules to come to play.

So if you want to solve the problem, and stick it to SWA, vote in SWAPA today.

If your not willing to do that, I take that as not being sincere in your request for help from SWAPA.
 
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scoreboardII said:
Lear, I'll put this forward one last time as a solution to all AT pilots problems: vote ALPA out, vote SWAPA in as your bargaining agent, and everyone gets full pay now, all captains get full SWA pay, 737 and 717.

If your not willing to do that, I take that as not being sincere in your request for help from SWAPA.
Click to expand...

This statement shows just how little you understand whats going on.
 
and how little you understand just how easy it is to solve the majority of the problems AT pilots face. Vote SWAPA in and get our contract now, not 3 years from now.

Anything else is BS and you get what you voted for, have a nice day.
 
scoreboardII said:
Lear, I'll put this forward one last time as a solution to all AT pilots problems: vote ALPA out, vote SWAPA in as your bargaining agent, and everyone gets full pay now, all captains get full SWA pay, 737 and 717.

Our line building comes to play, our min guarantee and reserve rules to come to play.

So if you want to solve the problem, and stick it to SWA, vote in SWAPA today.

If your not willing to do that, I take that as not being sincere in your request for help from SWAPA.
Click to expand...

You clearly don't understand the RLA.

SWAPA has to agree to take us. You can't force a union to take over representation.

And like another poster explained, that would not change our CBA unilaterally.

You are simply incorrect or misinformed. Call your SWAPA reps or the NMB for clarification.
 
scoreboardII said:
I understand RLA just fine, unless you take the step and force the hand, you'll get what you agreed to, have a nice day.
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Clearly you don't.

I've had this discussion with a RLA attorney along with the AAI ALPA MEC officers. Unless you're an RLA attorney, I will take his word for it over a pilot's.

Voting SWAPA in does NOTHING to bring us under SWAPA's CBA when we have a NMB recognized integration agreement in place which dictates when exactly we are covered under the SWAPA CBA.

That's why Joe Harris put a hard date in the Agreement; to preclude exactly what you're advocating.

Just the way it is. Have a nice day.
 
Lear
You are right voting SWAPA in won't put you under the SWAPA CBA. But if you want SWAPA to help you against SWA the only way that they can do that, without the threat of a DFR, is for SWAPA to represent AirTran. Since AirTran and Southwest are a single carrier you can ask the NMB to have ALPA removed and SWAPA put in its place. At my former airline we were ruled by the NMB to be a single carrier and instead of picking one of the unions they told us to elect one union to represent both groups. If the NMB doesn't select SWAPA to represent both groups, as the SWAPA BOD has stated that they have the power to do, then both groups will at least get to elect one union.
 
Go steelers
 
Actually, you are all wrong!

The only clear way to solve the issues at hand is to come to FI and whine and gripe about all your problems.

Oh, did any of you notice that the world is falling apart around us? Now back to pilot griping....
 
Elwood Blues said:
Welcome my new Airtran brothers ( and sisters)! For now let's agree that neither pilot group wanted the two companies to join ( at least true for one half of us). There has been some talk at how dishonest the SWA mgt team was in selling the 717 and how it would have been better had you have known about it sooner. I can not agree more! Had SWAPA known about the plan to divest 67% of AT's assets I think they may have pushed harder for an even worse deal for the AT pilots since A-M/B-M apparently only applies if purchasing over 50% of assets. Test the boundries of the law, so to speak. My point is things could have been potentially worse and I see how you feel about the deal you received with some gains and some losses. At this point arguing about it on the internet is like competing at the special olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded. Welcome aboard and let's try to put this behind us.
Click to expand...



When did a leased fleet become an asset?
 
The fact that SWA still owns the leases and only SUB-leased the aircraft to another air carrier is still acquisition of the asset.

And, for the record, I'm completely against SWAPA representation at this time. If SWAPA were to take over representation, they could pretty much refuse to file any of our grievances at will. Of course, they'd get sued to eternity and beyond for a DFR violation, which is why they clearly don't WANT representation at this point, but that would cost us a lot of money to fight.

As such, I don't want SWAPA anywhere near this process yet until all the issues relating to the SIA are done and behind us and, for now, they aren't.
 
Beechdriver32 said:
Hey Lear-
What 'issues'? I thought the SLI was pretty much set?
Thanks in advance.
BD32
Click to expand...
We've talked about it before, not only are there several transitional items that are NOT waivable with the departure of the 717's which SWA needs relief on, but other issues that go beyond that which are still actively being discussed and negotiated with SWA management.

Until those are done, I don't want someone else representing us who could decide to just drop the grievances and not pursue them should it come to the grievance route.
 
Lear70 said:
The fact that SWA still owns the leases and only SUB-leased the aircraft to another air carrier is still acquisition of the asset.

And, for the record, I'm completely against SWAPA representation at this time. If SWAPA were to take over representation, they could pretty much refuse to file any of our grievances at will. Of course, they'd get sued to eternity and beyond for a DFR violation, which is why they clearly don't WANT representation at this point, but that would cost us a lot of money to fight.

As such, I don't want SWAPA anywhere near this process yet until all the issues relating to the SIA are done and behind us and, for now, they aren't.
Click to expand...
We are now confused, you want SWAPA to help your side and say to SWA "yeah, whatever AT wants", yet you claim you don't want them anywhere near the process.
 
scoreboardII said:
We are now confused, you want SWAPA to help your side and say to SWA "yeah, whatever AT wants", yet you claim you don't want them anywhere near the process.
Click to expand...
No, you're deliberately confusing two different statements in order to discredit and distract.

1. I want SWAPA to stop passively acting against us by discontinuing their opposition to any increases in pay rates or other compensatory actions for the loss of the 717. In essence, quit saying "If they get something (AAI), WE get something (SWA) because it wasn't in the Agreement", even though the 717 loss wasn't in the agreement. It's disingenuous and divisive.

2. I don't want SWAPA to take over AAI representation until issues like this and others are completely finished working their way through the negotiation process.

YOU guys are the ones suggesting (erroneously) that SWAPA representation fixes our problems. It doesn't, but someone might WANT that so we have no more access to continue our fight for improvements on our side of the partition the next 2-3 years.
 
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Lear you must also remember that we are in a section 6. SWAPA is not going to let SWA give you money (short term) that will disappear. Why, because it is "pilot" money that will be used against us (all of us because it will be your future contract) to stop our gains. This is not to spite you guys, but to improve all SWA pilots for years to come.
 
Copy Lear, you want the cake, you want to eat it, and you want to eat ours, got it.

All we have given you is one way to skin the cat, pay seems to be the issue you argue most about, want it fixed? Become SWAPA. Compensation because the 717's depart? Not a chance, remember, this airline is run by lawyers, anything else other than the SLI is probably not going to happen.

However I am rooting for you, because I hope you make GK realize what a ********************ing idiotic idea it was to buy another airline, so that he never does it again. Thats not a slam against the pilots or people, just a slam against GK for pitting each side against each other.
 
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FlyinGuy said:
Lear you must also remember that we are in a section 6. SWAPA is not going to let SWA give you money (short term) that will disappear. Why, because it is "pilot" money that will be used against us (all of us because it will be your future contract) to stop our gains. This is not to spite you guys, but to improve all SWA pilots for years to come.
Click to expand...


How does having a "b" scale alter ego help during your section 6? As long as Airtran is still there operating at 30% less and making profits, it destroys any leverage you have at the table.

Plus, why does SWAPA care if we get the pay now? We are getting it Jan 1 2015 anyway. What does it matter if we get it early? How does it affect them? Hell, half the SWA pilots I've met thought AT was already getting the pay anyway.
 
That ant- leverage evaporates 2015, it's not like negotiations will be anywhere near complete by then.

If you want pay now, vote SWAPA in, otherwise, you get what you agreed too. It matters because your pay comes out of our pocket in lost profit sharing, etc. And, it breaks the deal. Want to break the deal? Vote SWAPA in. Get pay now.
 
All I'm saying is, the longer AirTran is on display to SWA management in its current form and making money, (see mid year update) the more likely it will be used against you in Section 6.
 
I am telling you what is commonly mentioned during negotiations. SWA has a pot of money that they are willing to give to each labor group. If SWAPA senses that the company is using the "pot" for AT remedies, they will have an issue with that.
 
All I'm saying is that display of B scale goes away Jan 1 2015, which is well before any talk of section 6 money comes to play.
 
Any talk of us getting the pay merely by voting ALPA out and SWAPA in is complete and utter horsesh*t.

Either:

A, the poster doesn't understand the RLA enough to understand that simply changing your bargaining agent doesn't bring you magically into a new CBA, or

B, the poster wants to foster that false idea among AirTran pilots in order to streamline the process when it happens, which more than likely will be filed by SWAPA ASAP if we file any grievance paperwork that threatens any part of the SIA so that they can undermine said grievance and dismiss it without our consent.

If ANY AirTran pilot has a question about this falsehood, PLEASE contact your reps or even call me directly, my number is in the ALPA directory on the web page.

I'm telling you, it is impossible to change our CBA simply by voting in SWAPA. The only thing this does is makes SWAPA your representative to the company under our EXISTING CBA until the date THAT WAS AGREED BY BOTH PARTIES FOR THE AIRTRAN PILOTS TO COME UNDER THE SWA CBA, which is 1/1/2015.

There is NO mechanism on God's green earth, short of SWA management agreeing to it EARLY with SWAPA and AAI pilots' agreement, that we can go to their CBA before 1/1/15 or when you cross the partition, whichever happens first. That's in the Seniority Integration Agreement and it's not waivable without ALL parties' consent.

Period. End. Of. Discussion.

Read the above and call me with any questions.
 
scoreboardII said:
Copy Lear, you want the cake, you want to eat it, and you want to eat ours, got it.
Click to expand...
No, that would be SWA pilots who

A. Got our seniority.
B. Now are getting our CA seats that we PAID for with our seniority (which is a violation of the SIA in and of itself).
C. Don't want to give the AAI pilots pay parity now because it MIGHT take a few dollars out of their pockets later on, even though we are paying for your gains.

So, in essence, it's the SWA pilots who have the cake, took ours, and want to enjoy both without even letting us have a few crumbs... if you want to speak in analogy.
 
I do not agree that the complexities of the acquisition can be sorted through fairly through debate. It is difficult to represent the interests of all pilots within a group. It is even more difficult to represent two different pilot groups. Perhaps AAI pilots do not see that only a small percentage of SWA pilots have gained anything from this transaction. None of the SWA pilots are based in ATL, all first officers who have not achieved an upgrade are being pushed backwards from transition pilots. After Jan 1, 2015 all AAI pilots are eligible for seniority based upgrade, and will stand first in line for a long time. I wonder what the tone will be then? I want the months back that I lost in the SLI too? I respect the feedback from this process however there are lots of moving parts, and the biggest moving part is SWA in this. The company has more control and input than either pilot association.
 
Lear70 said:
No, that would be SWA pilots who

A. Got our seniority.
B. Now are getting our CA seats that we PAID for with our seniority (which is a violation of the SIA in and of itself).
C. Don't want to give the AAI pilots pay parity now because it MIGHT take a few dollars out of their pockets later on, even though we are paying for your gains.

So, in essence, it's the SWA pilots who have the cake, took ours, and want to enjoy both without even letting us have a few crumbs... if you want to speak in analogy.
Click to expand...

I'm confused, didn't we already turn down Southwest pay and guaranteed captain seats?
 

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