SWAPA looking to capture more Capt seats

[Elwood Blues]

Welcome my new Airtran brothers ( and sisters)! For now let's agree that neither pilot group wanted the two companies to join ( at least true for one half of us). There has been some talk at how dishonest the SWA mgt team was in selling the 717 and how it would have been better had you have known about it sooner. I can not agree more! Had SWAPA known about the plan to divest 67% of AT's assets I think they may have pushed harder for an even worse deal for the AT pilots since A-M/B-M apparently only applies if purchasing over 50% of assets. Test the boundries of the law, so to speak. My point is things could have been potentially worse and I see how you feel about the deal you received with some gains and some losses. At this point arguing about it on the internet is like competing at the special olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded. Welcome aboard and let's try to put this behind us.

 

[FlyinGuy]

At this point arguing about it on the internet is like competing at the special olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded. Welcome aboard and let's try to put this behind us.

You need to have more respect for SWAPA than that!!!

 

[27 driver]

Welcome my new Airtran brothers ( and sisters)! For now let's agree that neither pilot group wanted the two companies to join ( at least true for one half of us). There has been some talk at how dishonest the SWA mgt team was in selling the 717 and how it would have been better had you have known about it sooner. I can not agree more! Had SWAPA known about the plan to divest 67% of AT's assets I think they may have pushed harder for an even worse deal for the AT pilots since A-M/B-M apparently only applies if purchasing over 50% of assets. Test the boundries of the law, so to speak. My point is things could have been potentially worse and I see how you feel about the deal you received with some gains and some losses. At this point arguing about it on the internet is like competing at the special olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded. Welcome aboard and let's try to put this behind us.

Amen Bro.

 

[Whataburger]

If the only way you can get a left seat, is by stealing it.. It's kinda like rape isn't it ?

I think all of us (AT and SWA) were content with staying home and jerking off. Suddenly the decision-makers shut off Spanktrovision!

Decisions are being made and our hands are getting tied behind or back so that we cannot jerkoff anymore. We're being forced to the streets of Oakland naked with lube in one sock, a PFT type in the other, and little orange earplugs jammed in our ears. At least they have the little blue chord that ties them together if one comes out.

imp::nuts:

 

[texman]

i think all of us (at and swa) were content with staying home and jerking off. Suddenly the decision-makers shut off spanktrovision!

Decisions are being made and our hands are getting tied behind or back so that we cannot jerkoff anymore. We're being forced to the streets of oakland naked with lube in one sock, a pft type in the other, and little orange earplugs jammed in our ears. At least they have the little blue chord that ties them together if one comes out.

imp::nuts:

lol!lol!

 

[fam62c]

I don't think any new hire at SWA should be on a B Scale. We are no different, we just got here first.

Unfortunately there already is a B-scale with the AT pilots who do the same job flying similar aircraft for the same corporation. I agree with your viewpoint but unfortunately it's been proven time and time again in this industry at multiple companies that pilots already on the property will protect their own interests before those of newer pilots, SWAPA is no different and the AT situation is the proof. In the end when it's a case of; "you can have this but only if you are willing to allow flexibility with pilots not already on the property" the senior pilots sacrifice the interests of the new pilots for gains; management knows this. Once the genie is out of the bottle it's tough to get it back in there.

 

[fam62c]

The B-scale was floated to make it LOOK like they would take something. SWAPA won't agree to anything like that. All they have to do is point to the Dispatch agreement and the rise of the Executive VP level with 'new' compensation package that it entails. These are just opening positions that equate to sabre rattling. It's also easy to point out that Gary decided to buy a company and only wanted 30-40% of it. His choice, not ours.

You can "point out" whatever you want but that doesn't get you anywhere. What the dispatchers got or what the CEO gets paid or what business decisions the CEO made have no bearing on the situation. The company is going to look at what other pilots in the industry get paid to fly airplanes. I hope I am wrong but I don't think that this negotiation is going to be like past SWAPA/company negotiations where the pilots get most of what they want quickly without things getting ugly. I think the company is going to "point out" that SW pilots (and other employees) already have more than almost everybody else.

SW management is looking at the AT pilots and it just dawned on them that pilots (and other employees) will do a good job flying airplanes (and help generate excellent operational performance numbers) for less than what SW is paying. Bottom line here; as a union you NEVER allow employees working for the same corporation to do get paid less for doing the same work.

SWAPA should have come out the day this acquisition (I'll call it that, every merger in our industry has an acquiring party) was announced and separated pay from seniority. They should have told the company that they would not accept pilots flying similar equipment at any division of the corporation to work for lower compensation. Instead they linked compensation and seniority from day-one; that was a big mistake that played right into management's hands. I knew that this was going to come back to haunt SWAPA one way or another.

 

[scoreboardII]

Unfortunately there already is a B-scale with the AT pilots who do the same job flying similar aircraft for the same corporation. I agree with your viewpoint but unfortunately it's been proven time and time again in this industry at multiple companies that pilots already on the property will protect their own interests before those of newer pilots, SWAPA is no different and the AT situation is the proof. In the end when it's a case of; "you can have this but only if you are willing to allow flexibility with pilots not already on the property" the senior pilots sacrifice the interests of the new pilots for gains; management knows this. Once the genie is out of the bottle it's tough to get it back in there.

Lets put this little fallacy to bed, the scale of wages AT is making until they transition on Jan 1 2015 was agreed to by AT pilots, NOT SWAPA.

 

[Tripower455]

SW management is looking at the AT pilots and it just dawned on them that pilots (and other employees) will do a good job flying airplanes (and help generate excellent operational performance numbers) for less than what SW is paying. Bottom line here; as a union you NEVER allow employees working for the same corporation to do get paid less for doing the same work.

Thank your MEC for that..... If they had allowed a membership vote on the first offer, you'd be making the same pay as us right now.

SWAPA should have come out the day this acquisition (I'll call it that, every merger in our industry has an acquiring party) was announced and separated pay from seniority. They should have told the company that they would not accept pilots flying similar equipment at any division of the corporation to work for lower compensation. Instead they linked compensation and seniority from day-one; that was a big mistake that played right into management's hands. I knew that this was going to come back to haunt SWAPA one way or another.

The first offer that your MEC turned down DID separate pay and seniority (all AT folks would've been on SW pay rates by now). Based on the FI rhetoric, you guys weren't concerned about the pay at all, just seniority. Gary helped you out, and gave you exactly what you asked for. SWApA just touted the company line, as usual.

The 717s leaving hoses ALL of us. Period.

 

[27 driver]

Lets put this little fallacy to bed, the scale of wages AT is making until they transition on Jan 1 2015 was agreed to by AT pilots, NOT SWAPA.

Bovine Defecate.

SWAPA had to agree to it as well.... and did so happily. The AAI guys faced non-integration. SWAPA did not. The B-scale will probably haunt you in this round of negotiations. I hope I am wrong but history is pretty clear.

 

[scoreboardII]

.....................

 

[scoreboardII]

Bovine Defecate.

SWAPA had to agree to it as well.... and did so happily. The AAI guys faced non-integration. SWAPA did not. The B-scale will probably haunt you in this round of negotiations. I hope I am wrong but history is pretty clear.

Utter BS, SWAPA had zero say on what AT and SWA ageed to pay AT pilots, ziltch.

Section six will be driven by industry pay, which sucks, not the temporary pay of a JV team.

 

[fletch717]

Utter BS, SWAPA had zero say on what AT and SWA ageed to pay AT pilots, ziltch.

Section six will be driven by industry pay, which sucks, not the temporary pay of a JV team.

The "JV Team"..... Nice. Gee when will you let me on the varsity team coach? You guys are so much better than the rest of us, I hope to be as good as you one day.

 

[fam62c]

Lets put this little fallacy to bed, the scale of wages AT is making until they transition on Jan 1 2015 was agreed to by AT pilots, NOT SWAPA.

It was SWAPA from day one in the negotiations that not only were agreeable to lower pay at the AT division but introduced the concept that seniority had to be traded to get SW pay rates when they should have insisted on keeping seniority and pay separate and not allowed any pilots flying similar equipment for the same parent to be paid less. I don't think any other union in any other other merger attempted to link seniority and pay, in fact, in other cases they tend to make a joint CBA a requirement before seniority gets tackled.

I think you need to review the history of the negotiations, SWAPA linked pay with seniority and that's where a lot of the problems started. It should be water under the bridge at this point but if you look at what SW is proposing for the new FO pay scale concept the idea of lower pay for some pilots has returned. Where do you think they got the idea that this could ever be acceptable to SWAPA?

We can agree to disagree about what happened. I guess these discussions don't really serve any purpose anyway. We will just have to see where the negotiations go because we will all be living with whatever gets negotiated in the next contract.

 

[DonVerita]

Lets put this little fallacy to bed, the scale of wages AT is making until they transition on Jan 1 2015 was agreed to by AT pilots, NOT SWAPA.

That is 100% BS and if you don't know that by now then you are massively ill-informed. NO AirTran pilot, not one, wanted the B-Scale wages we are currently on. It was part of the SLI #2 package that we didn't want either because it stole a bunch of our seniority and all 737 CA seats. But when SWA management, in cahoots with SWAPA, holds a gun to your head and says Vote Yes or risk not being integrated, it kind of leaves very little in the way of options.

ATN came off their relative seniority position and were willing to settle for straight date of hire and let the CA positions fall where they may based on DOH. But you guys had too much of a hard on for that and couldn't bring yourselves to the fairness table. You had to "get something". Why did that "something" have to come out of the flesh of ATN pilots? Couldn't you just have gotten GK to refund your PFT type ratings instead?

 

[scoreboardII]

Fact: AT pilots agreed to be paid lower wages. End of discussion.

 

[fletch717]

Fact: AT pilots agreed to be paid lower wages. End of discussion.

You're an idiot

 

[dicko]

It was SWAPA from day one in the negotiations that not only were agreeable to lower pay at the AT division but introduced the concept that seniority had to be traded to get SW pay rates when they should have insisted on keeping seniority and pay separate and not allowed any pilots flying similar equipment for the same parent to be paid less. I don't think any other union in any other other merger attempted to link seniority and pay, in fact, in other cases they tend to make a joint CBA a requirement before seniority gets tackled.

I think you need to review the history of the negotiations, SWAPA linked pay with seniority and that's where a lot of the problems started. It should be water under the bridge at this point but if you look at what SW is proposing for the new FO pay scale concept the idea of lower pay for some pilots has returned. Where do you think they got the idea that this could ever be acceptable to SWAPA?

We can agree to disagree about what happened. I guess these discussions don't really serve any purpose anyway. We will just have to see where the negotiations go because we will all be living with whatever gets negotiated in the next contract.

Scoreboard. If you think your version is more accurate than the real version above ....... "You weren't their man"

 

[DonVerita]

Thank your MEC for that..... If they had allowed a membership vote on the first offer, you'd be making the same pay as us right now.

Based on the FI rhetoric, you guys weren't concerned about the pay at all, just seniority. Gary helped you out, and gave you exactly what you asked for.

Oh really? So Gary gave us exactly what we wanted - seniority, right? If what you say is correct, then you are just as ill/mis-informed as Scoreboard. If we got seniority, then why am I still taking a 3 year seniority hit? Answer that.

As for the MEC, they did exactly what they were supposed to do...they voted down an SLI that was blatently unfair to the ATN pilots in terms of seniority loss. And let us not forget that seniority is everything, no matter what airline you work for. Sure, the pay was there in SLI 1, as it should be, but that never should have been an issue. Same pay for same work. Got a problem with that? SWAPA committed a cardinal sin by allowing a B-scale on property.

Where the MEC did screw up was in allowing SLI 2 to go to a membership vote. If SLI 1 was so disgusting that the MEC voted it down, why wouldn't they vote down SLI 2 which was even more abhorrent? They should have said, "F-this, we're going straight to arbitration" and let a neutral 3rd party decide this.

 

[funnyman12]

Well SWAPA if you get forced into concessions, it is still a pay raise for us b-scale trannies. We are 1740 pilots that have been trashed like second class pilots. If SWAPA ends up in a protracted fight with management in negotiations, say bye bye to us FAG pilots supporting SWAPA. We may only be 25% your size now, but every year many more SW pilots retire than Airtran. Hence every year you will have a larger % of Airtran pilots. I cant believe that 10 months after the SLI is done SWAPA continued every divisive tactic to fan the flames. I look forward to retirements knowing that our influence grows.