SWAPA looking to capture more Capt seats

[Lear70]

Selling the 717 just put another 700-800 Captains on top of the SWA FOs, fun time had by all!

That's something I have to explain to some of the SWA F/O's I run into when I'm jumpseating to and from work in MCO.

They're getting really aggravated that all our CA's are coming into MCO senior to them, pushing all of them down (or out). When I explain to them that the reason it happened is because SWA management engineered the deal that way (making all our CA's F/O's), they get a little confused until I explain it.

I looked at it again, and Jamie's seniority calculator hasn't been updated to reflect it, but with the 717's going away and all those CA's now becoming F/O's, a LARGE number of the SWA F/O's are going back on reserve in "senior" bases, many will be displaced, and most of the F/O's at AAI will be lucky to hold a line in PHX or LAS, probably ending up on reserve if we want something East of the Mississippi.

The senior top 15% of the F/O list at SWA are the only ones who benefit from this (those who will upgrade due to the retained 737 classics, deliveries of new 737's and deliveries of our 737's) and the junior SWA CA's who will get off reserve. The bottom 85% of the SWA F/O's aren't going to feel any LUV anytime soon with all our CA's coming in as F/O's.

Plenty of irritation to go around unless/until the growth kicks in at 15% ROIC as-promised. If that growth doesn't happen when we hit that metric...

 

[wood pecker]

What were the last AT to SW class base assignments / break down?

 

[SWA Bubba]

It depends how it would be implemented and on what metric?

For instance, let's say that my fiance' and I eventually have kids. Let's say she doesn't want to stay out on FMLA because she makes about twice what I do so she wants me to stay home for a few months. After I've exhausted my FMLA, maybe I want to drop everything except for a couple 2-days on weekends where she's off so we don't have to get child care until the baby's about 6 months old.

That means for about 3-4 months, I'm dropping down to 40 or 50 trips. I don't want to be at risk for losing my benefits because for one 90-120 day period in 2-3 years, once or twice during my career, I decide to not work and give away the majority of my trips.

Of course you have FMLA, but after you exhaust that...

There may be people who want to take a trip of a lifetime where they're going to be gone 4-6 weeks around the world. Should they lose their benefits because they're not working a full month for two months in a row?

Is there a problem with the people who only fly a trip or two all year long and draw benefits? Absolutely. Should we be VERY careful about how this desired policy change could affect us? You betcha.

The SWA bidding system, ability to play with your lines, fly a crap ton for two or three months then take the next month off if you want, it's one of the real bonuses for working for Southwest. Truth be told 5-6 legs a day up and down isn't my cup of tea. The fact that I can get rid of a lot of stuff I don't want to fly and make as much as I make now on half the block hours I currently fly or find trips I like better and make good money is the ONE thing that offsets the HUGE seniority hit we took.

The potential increase in Quality of Life is what helps me keep a positive attitude towards this whole thing. I don't think I'm alone in hoping it doesn't get whittled away, that's all.

Hope that makes sense, sorry so long. :beer:

Sure it makes sense, and that's what most people I've talked to want. They don't want to take away flexibility, but rather get rid of the dead wood who do absolutely nothing, but take money from us. Something like a "rolling average," either monthly or yearly, and it doesn't have to be that high. Something that allows you to take time off when you need or want, like in your situation, but keep people from doing what I've describe above. Looks like we're not too far apart after all.

Bubba

 

[zman]

I had a Swa FO on my flight who was livid with the whole agreement and basically talked about the 10% seniority bump. He said it is actually whittled away over time cause of the avg. age of Airtrans younger pilot group. An the end only the top part of the First officers benefit but later will suffer cause every time an AirTran guy upgrades he/she will push them down as a junior captain. As for the rest of the mid to junior FO's, as stated above they will see their schedules and bases become worse over time unless we see growth. He and a bunch of FO's wrote a scathing email to Steve Chase of why they will not vote for him again.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I can only imagine the platform of the guy they would be voting for if they think Chase is a pushover! Probably mirroring Israel's policy on Iranian nuclear engineers.

 

[Lear70]

He and a bunch of FO's wrote a scathing email to Steve Chase of why they will not vote for him again.

Wrote a letter to the wrong guy.

Did Steve Chase take full advantage of the position SWAPA was in with this deal? Absolutely. Does his behavior in that and since then with some of the letters that have been sent out make me want to see him remain in office? No, not really (would rather have seen Kuwitzky remain in office). Did he have any power to make this deal any better for the SWAPA piots? Absolutely not, unless he wanted to gamble in arbitration (which the SWAPA BoD clearly did not want to do).

This deal, this ENTIRE DEAL, with the exception of a few small caveats here and there, was crafted by SWA management. They inserted themselves into the middle of an Allegheny-Mohawk seniority integration and mandated the outcome with thinly-veiled threats for both groups if they failed to play along.

Call it what you want, but that's what they did. So if there's any angst among SWA pilots, they need to point it in the direction of who crafted the bulk of the Agreement, and it's not Steve Chase and it's not SWAPA or ALPA.

Management did what they thought was best for their company, worried about a UAir/AWA repeat. Can't say as I blame them for that approach, but the problem is that it has real fallout for pilots on both sides that we will live with for the majority of the rest of our careers. That's going to take a while to get past. Everyone has their own approach to it; mine is disengaging from aviation, realizing it's just a job albeit a well-paying one, and focusing my energy on enjoying other facets of life: family, hobbies, etc.

I come on here a few times a week to get my irritation out (usually when I'm on the road), but it's been a month since I've even bothered trying to keep in touch with what the Association is doing. I get a Contract Compliance call every week or so, help some people out, and just do my thing and go home. On the up-side, been doing 24 hr CUN/LAX/SJU layovers every other week, got back into Crossfit, starting training for a Triathlon, got my boat running again, new deck is built, got a new Kamado and enjoying cooler grilling weather.

Life is pretty good when I can forget I'm going to be an F/O until I'm in my mid-50's and I can tune out this stuff for a while.

 

[SWA/FO]

The days of industry-leading pay

I don't think we ever had that title.

 

[texman]

That's something I have to explain to some of the SWA F/O's I run into when I'm jumpseating to and from work in MCO.

They're getting really aggravated that all our CA's are coming into MCO senior to them, pushing all of them down (or out). When I explain to them that the reason it happened is because SWA management engineered the deal that way (making all our CA's F/O's), they get a little confused until I explain it.

I looked at it again, and Jamie's seniority calculator hasn't been updated to reflect it, but with the 717's going away and all those CA's now becoming F/O's, a LARGE number of the SWA F/O's are going back on reserve in "senior" bases, many will be displaced, and most of the F/O's at AAI will be lucky to hold a line in PHX or LAS, probably ending up on reserve if we want something East of the Mississippi.

The senior top 15% of the F/O list at SWA are the only ones who benefit from this (those who will upgrade due to the retained 737 classics, deliveries of new 737's and deliveries of our 737's) and the junior SWA CA's who will get off reserve. The bottom 85% of the SWA F/O's aren't going to feel any LUV anytime soon with all our CA's coming in as F/O's.

Plenty of irritation to go around unless/until the growth kicks in at 15% ROIC as-promised. If that growth doesn't happen when we hit that metric...

YUP! This sums it up in a nut shell. Our top FO's get their upgrade. I have ran into some that are biatching about sitting reserve, a lot of them are now wanting the reserve rules changed for the better. I laugh and say how does it feel to be on reserve? I say to them it sucks doesn't it! Welcome to our world BUDDY! I laugh and laugh! I do feel sorry for our bottom folk's on both ends capt and fo. I just try to roll with the UFC punches we keep getting.

 

[Flyer1015]

What is the course of action that will happen with SLI#2 for Airtan pilots from 2013-15, and how does that compare with what would have been the course of action with SLI#1 from 2013-15?

I don't get why there are pilots saying they were deceived by management about the 717s staying? This is southwest we are talking about, and for them to take on an continue to operate a non-737 fleet is not going to work. Personally, I always thought once Airtran was bought, the 717 days were numbered at the new SWA.

 

[redflyer65]

I don't get why there are pilots saying they were deceived by management about the 717s staying? This is southwest we are talking about, and for them to take on an continue to operate a non-737 fleet is not going to work. Personally, I always thought once Airtran was bought, the 717 days were numbered at the new SWA.

Completely agree. I always thought it was crazy to think SW would operate a 717 when it goes against everything Southwest has ever stood for..

Lear great post and I agree that it was completely crafted by management. It's all said and done. To say DOH was fair between Airtran QOL/Benefits and Southwest QOL/Benefits is more than a bit of a stretch. I understand you wanting that, but those are two very different metrics. YMMV.