SWAPA looking to capture more Capt seats

[SWA717]

Fellow SWAPA Pilots,

At 1000 Herb today, the SWAPA Board of Directors held an electronic board meeting via conference call to discuss items including general business, the DEN domicile representative appointment, AirTran transition timeline, the Company's ability to meet the contractual deadline of January 1, 2015 and board direction relating to Section 6 negotiations.

After identifying the multitude of issues in our current CBA in need of attention, the board of directors during the August board meeting tasked the Negotiating Committee to investigate the viability of a seeking an agreement that would expedite addressing these concerns. This strategy would have addressed issues affecting our pilots on both sides of the cockpit due to deficiencies in our current CBA that have been revealed during this time of stagnation and transition. Some of those items included: reserve, domicile manning, retirement and monetary considerations. As with any negotiation, both parties have their own sets of "asks" and the Company was no exception. When your NC began bargaining and presenting these concerns, it was quickly realized the Company's desires were too broad and involved too many areas in the contract to expedite any agreement.

The Company also wanted to address a protracted pay scale. To be clear, this concept would begin with current first-year pay and end with our current maximum pay rate, but over an increased time period. Additional provisions in this proposal would give current pilots longevity adjustments to ensure their pay remains in parity with their current rate, and going forward they would only apply to new hire pilots. We view this proposal as a new B-scale.

Additionally, Southwest expressed the desire to address minimum productivity metrics for eligibility of Company-funded insurance. We felt this wasn't an issue we should consider while addressing the viability of a short-term bargaining path. While we understand this has been an issue for other work groups, the Company has not identified the pilots as a problem in regard to being productive.

Despite lack of resolution to date, valuable progress has been made, talks are productive and will continue. After lengthy discussions on these and other points, we found that a traditional bargaining timeline for Section 6 would be required to effectively address each issue appropriately. Time spent discussing these items was not lost. We have identified issues and concerns, and now better understand some of these elements as we move forward in bargaining. SWAPA remains committed to enhancing our contract equitably and as we progress. Look forward to more frequent updates.

Finally, I want to report on the Company's progress on the transition. They now appear more confident they will comply with our transition deadline of Jan. 1, 2015. It seems the Company has the ability to expedite the transition in a way that safely moves all operations under Southwest Airlines. This will result in the capturing of the upgrades afforded in Side Letter 10. I appreciate the pilot group's concern with this issue and allowing the Association to work alongside the Company in an effort to find a mutually beneficial solution. SWAPA's position all along has been that the only solution is to comply with our contractual agreement.

Fly Safe,

 

[redflyer65]

I wouldn't say 'MORE' captain seats. They just want the agreement followed by the company. Whether you agree with it or not.

Nice try though.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Maybe you should have titled the thread "SWAPA looking to actually enforce the freakin' contract," since that's exactly what this post from the President (and related, previous posts from the last few weeks) have been all about. The company had been making noises about not being able to meet the timeline (Jan '15) specified in the agreements, and SWAPA has been holding their feet to the fire to do so.

Jeez, you bitch about the slow pace of SWA integrating Airtran, and when SWAPA pushes them to step it up and integrate on the agreed-to schedule, you bitch about that too. Obviously there's nothing that will be done that you will be happy about. We got it.

Bubba

 

[SWA717]

How exactly is "capturing of upgrades" suppose to be interpreted?

 

[Lear70]

As with any negotiation, both parties have their own sets of "asks" and the Company was no exception. When your NC began bargaining and presenting these concerns, it was quickly realized the Company's desires were too broad and involved too many areas in the contract to expedite any agreement.

We told SWAPA this back at the conclusion of negotiations. Specifically, during the 2nd day of negotiations, Frank made the off-handed comment to Russ M asking how much management was going to expect back from SWAPA for carrying their water for them. Their response was, of course, "we're just trying to get a fair agreement", but towards the end of that exchange, they intimated that they would, indeed, be reminding SWAPA of that during Sec 6.

Later that week, at the post-negotiations cocktail hour at the bar before dinner, Frank asked them if they were prepared for the give-backs the company was going to expect as a result of carrying their water for them during negotiations. They seemed a little shocked. Yet here we are.

The Company also wanted to address a protracted pay scale... We view this proposal as a new B-scale.

Good for SWAPA.

Additionally, Southwest expressed the desire to address minimum productivity metrics for eligibility of Company-funded insurance. We felt this wasn't an issue we should consider while addressing the viability of a short-term bargaining path. While we understand this has been an issue for other work groups, the Company has not identified the pilots as a problem in regard to being productive.

Knew this was coming... They will use the excuse that they need to "streamline" the benefits metrics for all employee groups, and not have different policies for different labor groups.

After lengthy discussions on these and other points, we found that a traditional bargaining timeline for Section 6 would be required to effectively address each issue appropriately.

Also not a shocker. Welcome to a more traditional labor relationship with management. I believe they've been planning on moving this direction for a while. The days of industry-leading pay are likely over, with the lack of a clear cost advantage elsewhere, there will be considerable pressure to keep wages in-line with other SNB rates at other Majors (if not lower) as their bankruptcy contracts are re-negotiated.

Finally, I want to report on the Company's progress on the transition. They now appear more confident they will comply with our transition deadline of Jan. 1, 2015. It seems the Company has the ability to expedite the transition in a way that safely moves all operations under Southwest Airlines. This will result in the capturing of the upgrades afforded in Side Letter 10. I appreciate the pilot group's concern with this issue and allowing the Association to work alongside the Company in an effort to find a mutually beneficial solution. SWAPA's position all along has been that the only solution is to comply with our contractual agreement.

Had an interesting discussion along these lines with Chuck M and Mike V at the employee appreciation party in LAX last month. While they didn't come out and say this is what they planned to do, they alluded to it heavily, asking the AAI pilots in attendance what would they think of wearing the SWA uniform on the AAI side of the partition, etc.

Remember what I said 6 months ago about the language in the SLI basically making all AAI pilots SWA pilots by virtue of the 1/1/15 date, single carrier representation, and everyone being on the SWA CBA at that date?

That's exactly what they intend to do, and it sounds like they've gotten the FAA to bite off on the idea of "flipping the switch" for the remaining pilots on 12/31/14, similar to what Delta and NWA did.

For the remaining 717 pilots it'll be a non-issue, simply more FOM alignment bulletins, a PC over the SWA FOM for the CA's, and a SWA I.D. issued.

We'll see what they do for the remaining 737 pilots, but if there are still unconverted 737's at AAI on 1/1/15 (estimates with the conversion schedule look like no more than 10 aircraft remaining on that date if the res system comes up close to on-schedule), they could simply send those 150-200 pilots home with pay at guarantee for 2-3 months (75 per month through class is doable if they use the early a.m. sim sessions) while they put a Southwest sticker on the planes until they can get the last of them through conversion and SWAPA pilots fly them.

Welcome to the first airline merger/acquisition of two non-bankruptcy airlines that has ever resulted in NOT A SINGLE CAPTAIN SEAT being retained by an otherwise healthy and profitable airline.

Unfortunately for us, now that this playbook is out there for management to do an end-run around McCaskill-Bond, future acquisitions by SWA will probably go immediately to the NMB seeking protection and assistance with the integration timeline and commitment, rather than signing a Process Agreement, making the entire thing tamper-proof by management and, thus, getting to go to arbitration without the threat of non-integration.

I personally hope SWA never attempts to acquire another airline, as I fear our F/O's would never see the CA seat after a fair integration with another carrier.

 

[freightdogfred]

Jan 15 will come...Great White Father will takum SWAPA big cheese SC into tepee to smokem peace pipe. SC will come out of tepee with red cheeks an sore bottom. SWAPA havem many injuns, but very few warriors, and the Great White Father will holdum a heap big roundup for all his new Atlanta braves, free firewater for all. His new braves no likum SC, him speak with crooked an forked tongue.

 

[SWA Bubba]

How exactly is "capturing of upgrades" suppose to be interpreted?

Well, for starters, you could have actually read the entire note. He's talking about what was specified in SL-10, the agreement we all live under (for better or for worse), and about upgrades that were set in place by THAT agreement. Applying the word "more" in your diatribe is clearly just designed to inflame. Also keep in mind, that he's talking to Southwest partition pilots, not Airtran partition pilots, the junior-most of which are just as adamant that they got screwed by this agreement as you are. If SWA doesn't meet the timeline to get planes and crews transitioned by the agreed-upon date, it comes at the expense of not realizing all of the upgrades on the SWA sides that came with THAT deal. I realize that may be fine with YOU, but it's not what was agreed to in the first place.

So you can interpret it that way--SWAPA fighting to enforce the contract agreed to. OR... you can continue to take random sentences out of random memos, and continue to spin them to feed your particular bitch--that you got screwed.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

....

Knew this was coming... They will use the excuse that they need to "streamline" the benefits metrics for all employee groups, and not have different policies for different labor groups.

....

(Lear's quote above was in reference to the company broaching the subject of working minimums to receive full company insurance)


Now to go off on a tangent unrelated to the subject line...

Actually, Lear, a LOT of pilots (and flight attendants) I talk to want exactly this, and I suspect it's primarily driven by the flight attendants' contract. They have literally hundreds of flight attendants who do absolutely NO work whatsoever. They give everything away every month. However, they collect up to five weeks of vacation pay per year, and enjoy all the benefits of working here, including very generous medical insurance for them and all their families. Since Southwest is self-insured (UHC just administers the program), all of this money comes out of the pockets of all of the rest of us. These are employees who provide nothing to the bottom line (and in the majority of these cases, never intend to), but collect money from Southwest. They, or their partners have other "real" jobs and just stay on the list for the benefits or so they won't have to buy expensive health insurance. So a lot of us support a intelligent and reasonable negotiated way to mitigate this.

I agree with you that the company wants to broach this with our union now group to ensure it's fairly applied to all. We just happen to be the union in contract talks right now. You can be sure it will be pushed heavily onto the flight attendants as well when their contract becomes amenable.

I couldn't tell from your tone whether your are for or against this, but it seems like you're against it. Can you expound?

Bubba

 

[scarlet]

Yeah Airtran still flying basically most 737s. All those cpt seats aren't coming to quick? 737 pilots will not transition until middle of 2014.

Selling the 717 just put another 700-800 Captains on top of the SWA FOs, fun time had by all !

ALPA national Thanks SWAPA and SWA for the extra millions of dollars in dues, for not transitioning the pilots to SWAPA.

 

[Lear70]

I couldn't tell from your tone whether your are for or against this, but it seems like you're against it. Can you expound?

Bubba

It depends how it would be implemented and on what metric?

For instance, let's say that my fiance' and I eventually have kids. Let's say she doesn't want to stay out on FMLA because she makes about twice what I do so she wants me to stay home for a few months. After I've exhausted my FMLA, maybe I want to drop everything except for a couple 2-days on weekends where she's off so we don't have to get child care until the baby's about 6 months old.

That means for about 3-4 months, I'm dropping down to 40 or 50 trips. I don't want to be at risk for losing my benefits because for one 90-120 day period in 2-3 years, once or twice during my career, I decide to not work and give away the majority of my trips.

Of course you have FMLA, but after you exhaust that...

There may be people who want to take a trip of a lifetime where they're going to be gone 4-6 weeks around the world. Should they lose their benefits because they're not working a full month for two months in a row?

Is there a problem with the people who only fly a trip or two all year long and draw benefits? Absolutely. Should we be VERY careful about how this desired policy change could affect us? You betcha.

The SWA bidding system, ability to play with your lines, fly a crap ton for two or three months then take the next month off if you want, it's one of the real bonuses for working for Southwest. Truth be told 5-6 legs a day up and down isn't my cup of tea. The fact that I can get rid of a lot of stuff I don't want to fly and make as much as I make now on half the block hours I currently fly or find trips I like better and make good money is the ONE thing that offsets the HUGE seniority hit we took.

The potential increase in Quality of Life is what helps me keep a positive attitude towards this whole thing. I don't think I'm alone in hoping it doesn't get whittled away, that's all.

Hope that makes sense, sorry so long. :beer:

 

[Lear70]

Selling the 717 just put another 700-800 Captains on top of the SWA FOs, fun time had by all!

That's something I have to explain to some of the SWA F/O's I run into when I'm jumpseating to and from work in MCO.

They're getting really aggravated that all our CA's are coming into MCO senior to them, pushing all of them down (or out). When I explain to them that the reason it happened is because SWA management engineered the deal that way (making all our CA's F/O's), they get a little confused until I explain it.

I looked at it again, and Jamie's seniority calculator hasn't been updated to reflect it, but with the 717's going away and all those CA's now becoming F/O's, a LARGE number of the SWA F/O's are going back on reserve in "senior" bases, many will be displaced, and most of the F/O's at AAI will be lucky to hold a line in PHX or LAS, probably ending up on reserve if we want something East of the Mississippi.

The senior top 15% of the F/O list at SWA are the only ones who benefit from this (those who will upgrade due to the retained 737 classics, deliveries of new 737's and deliveries of our 737's) and the junior SWA CA's who will get off reserve. The bottom 85% of the SWA F/O's aren't going to feel any LUV anytime soon with all our CA's coming in as F/O's.

Plenty of irritation to go around unless/until the growth kicks in at 15% ROIC as-promised. If that growth doesn't happen when we hit that metric...

 

[wood pecker]

What were the last AT to SW class base assignments / break down?

 

[SWA Bubba]

It depends how it would be implemented and on what metric?

For instance, let's say that my fiance' and I eventually have kids. Let's say she doesn't want to stay out on FMLA because she makes about twice what I do so she wants me to stay home for a few months. After I've exhausted my FMLA, maybe I want to drop everything except for a couple 2-days on weekends where she's off so we don't have to get child care until the baby's about 6 months old.

That means for about 3-4 months, I'm dropping down to 40 or 50 trips. I don't want to be at risk for losing my benefits because for one 90-120 day period in 2-3 years, once or twice during my career, I decide to not work and give away the majority of my trips.

Of course you have FMLA, but after you exhaust that...

There may be people who want to take a trip of a lifetime where they're going to be gone 4-6 weeks around the world. Should they lose their benefits because they're not working a full month for two months in a row?

Is there a problem with the people who only fly a trip or two all year long and draw benefits? Absolutely. Should we be VERY careful about how this desired policy change could affect us? You betcha.

The SWA bidding system, ability to play with your lines, fly a crap ton for two or three months then take the next month off if you want, it's one of the real bonuses for working for Southwest. Truth be told 5-6 legs a day up and down isn't my cup of tea. The fact that I can get rid of a lot of stuff I don't want to fly and make as much as I make now on half the block hours I currently fly or find trips I like better and make good money is the ONE thing that offsets the HUGE seniority hit we took.

The potential increase in Quality of Life is what helps me keep a positive attitude towards this whole thing. I don't think I'm alone in hoping it doesn't get whittled away, that's all.

Hope that makes sense, sorry so long. :beer:

Sure it makes sense, and that's what most people I've talked to want. They don't want to take away flexibility, but rather get rid of the dead wood who do absolutely nothing, but take money from us. Something like a "rolling average," either monthly or yearly, and it doesn't have to be that high. Something that allows you to take time off when you need or want, like in your situation, but keep people from doing what I've describe above. Looks like we're not too far apart after all.

Bubba

 

[zman]

I had a Swa FO on my flight who was livid with the whole agreement and basically talked about the 10% seniority bump. He said it is actually whittled away over time cause of the avg. age of Airtrans younger pilot group. An the end only the top part of the First officers benefit but later will suffer cause every time an AirTran guy upgrades he/she will push them down as a junior captain. As for the rest of the mid to junior FO's, as stated above they will see their schedules and bases become worse over time unless we see growth. He and a bunch of FO's wrote a scathing email to Steve Chase of why they will not vote for him again.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I can only imagine the platform of the guy they would be voting for if they think Chase is a pushover! Probably mirroring Israel's policy on Iranian nuclear engineers.

 

[Lear70]

He and a bunch of FO's wrote a scathing email to Steve Chase of why they will not vote for him again.

Wrote a letter to the wrong guy.

Did Steve Chase take full advantage of the position SWAPA was in with this deal? Absolutely. Does his behavior in that and since then with some of the letters that have been sent out make me want to see him remain in office? No, not really (would rather have seen Kuwitzky remain in office). Did he have any power to make this deal any better for the SWAPA piots? Absolutely not, unless he wanted to gamble in arbitration (which the SWAPA BoD clearly did not want to do).

This deal, this ENTIRE DEAL, with the exception of a few small caveats here and there, was crafted by SWA management. They inserted themselves into the middle of an Allegheny-Mohawk seniority integration and mandated the outcome with thinly-veiled threats for both groups if they failed to play along.

Call it what you want, but that's what they did. So if there's any angst among SWA pilots, they need to point it in the direction of who crafted the bulk of the Agreement, and it's not Steve Chase and it's not SWAPA or ALPA.

Management did what they thought was best for their company, worried about a UAir/AWA repeat. Can't say as I blame them for that approach, but the problem is that it has real fallout for pilots on both sides that we will live with for the majority of the rest of our careers. That's going to take a while to get past. Everyone has their own approach to it; mine is disengaging from aviation, realizing it's just a job albeit a well-paying one, and focusing my energy on enjoying other facets of life: family, hobbies, etc.

I come on here a few times a week to get my irritation out (usually when I'm on the road), but it's been a month since I've even bothered trying to keep in touch with what the Association is doing. I get a Contract Compliance call every week or so, help some people out, and just do my thing and go home. On the up-side, been doing 24 hr CUN/LAX/SJU layovers every other week, got back into Crossfit, starting training for a Triathlon, got my boat running again, new deck is built, got a new Kamado and enjoying cooler grilling weather.

Life is pretty good when I can forget I'm going to be an F/O until I'm in my mid-50's and I can tune out this stuff for a while.

 

[SWA/FO]

The days of industry-leading pay

I don't think we ever had that title.

 

[texman]

That's something I have to explain to some of the SWA F/O's I run into when I'm jumpseating to and from work in MCO.

They're getting really aggravated that all our CA's are coming into MCO senior to them, pushing all of them down (or out). When I explain to them that the reason it happened is because SWA management engineered the deal that way (making all our CA's F/O's), they get a little confused until I explain it.

I looked at it again, and Jamie's seniority calculator hasn't been updated to reflect it, but with the 717's going away and all those CA's now becoming F/O's, a LARGE number of the SWA F/O's are going back on reserve in "senior" bases, many will be displaced, and most of the F/O's at AAI will be lucky to hold a line in PHX or LAS, probably ending up on reserve if we want something East of the Mississippi.

The senior top 15% of the F/O list at SWA are the only ones who benefit from this (those who will upgrade due to the retained 737 classics, deliveries of new 737's and deliveries of our 737's) and the junior SWA CA's who will get off reserve. The bottom 85% of the SWA F/O's aren't going to feel any LUV anytime soon with all our CA's coming in as F/O's.

Plenty of irritation to go around unless/until the growth kicks in at 15% ROIC as-promised. If that growth doesn't happen when we hit that metric...

YUP! This sums it up in a nut shell. Our top FO's get their upgrade. I have ran into some that are biatching about sitting reserve, a lot of them are now wanting the reserve rules changed for the better. I laugh and say how does it feel to be on reserve? I say to them it sucks doesn't it! Welcome to our world BUDDY! I laugh and laugh! I do feel sorry for our bottom folk's on both ends capt and fo. I just try to roll with the UFC punches we keep getting.

 

[Flyer1015]

What is the course of action that will happen with SLI#2 for Airtan pilots from 2013-15, and how does that compare with what would have been the course of action with SLI#1 from 2013-15?

I don't get why there are pilots saying they were deceived by management about the 717s staying? This is southwest we are talking about, and for them to take on an continue to operate a non-737 fleet is not going to work. Personally, I always thought once Airtran was bought, the 717 days were numbered at the new SWA.

 

[redflyer65]

I don't get why there are pilots saying they were deceived by management about the 717s staying? This is southwest we are talking about, and for them to take on an continue to operate a non-737 fleet is not going to work. Personally, I always thought once Airtran was bought, the 717 days were numbered at the new SWA.

Completely agree. I always thought it was crazy to think SW would operate a 717 when it goes against everything Southwest has ever stood for..

Lear great post and I agree that it was completely crafted by management. It's all said and done. To say DOH was fair between Airtran QOL/Benefits and Southwest QOL/Benefits is more than a bit of a stretch. I understand you wanting that, but those are two very different metrics. YMMV.