SWAPA looking to capture more Capt seats

[scoreboardII]

I'm telling you, it is impossible to change our CBA simply by voting in SWAPA.

This from the same group that said "don't vote for the first offer, we can do better". How did that work for AT pilots?

 

[scoreboardII]

No, that would be SWA pilots who

A. Got our seniority.

Because you guys agreed to it at an over 80% rate voluntarily.


B. Now are getting our CA seats that we PAID for with our seniority (which is a violation of the SIA in and of itself).

Because you guys agreed to it at an over 80% rate voluntarily.

C. Don't want to give the AAI pilots pay parity now because it MIGHT take a few dollars out of their pockets later on, even though we are paying for your gains.

Because you guys agreed to it at an over 80% rate voluntarily.

So, in essence, it's the SWA pilots who have the cake, took ours, and want to enjoy both without even letting us have a few crumbs... if you want to speak in analogy.

Again, only Because you guys agreed to it at an over 80% rate voluntarily.

 

[Kharma Police]

Cute...

Tell that to our CA's who were promised 717 CA slots on the SWA side of the partition.

But I appreciate the tongue-in-cheek sarcasm.

Hey man, it's all good! Falcons are playing the Broncos tonight!!!! Rise up!!!

 

[Lear70]

We got your senoirity? Right Lear...

Well, maybe you can explain to me how I got from #7 in base to bottom 12% back on reserve combined list?

I'd call that losing my seniority,,, you can call it what you want.

 

[Lear70]

Again, only Because you guys agreed to it at an over 80% rate with your jobs threatened and at jeopardy if you voted no.

There. Fixed it for you.

 

[redflyer65]

I respect the feedback from this process however there are lots of moving parts, and the biggest moving part is SWA in this. The company has more control and input than either pilot association.

ASA got this right. Even if Steve Chase walked into Gary's office, pounded on the desk and demanded SWAPA rates for AAI right now....he would be completely laughed out of the office. Gary is going to do what he's going to do. Just look at the second agreement, that's all the proof you need.

Lear,

The deal was the deal. It could have been voted down again by the MEC, or the members. It wasn't. Threatened your job? Yep, Gary wanted a deal and put big numbers into the first one. He really felt like he got egg on his face after the MEC voted down his best offer. Now its offer number two which we all live under. I don't see SW just opening the checkbook prior to 2015. No way. To keep thinking so is beating your head against the wall.

 

[scoreboardII]

Lear, just remember, you voted for it. No gun to your head, options to go to arbitration, yet you voted yes. End of story. Move on, get on with life as it will be, ignore the transition issues as a cost of being in the airlines. I've set fourth a plain and simple option to force SWA's hand to give you 90%, yet because you still want to fight, you'll more than likely end up with exactly what the SLI says, and the loss of good faith with SWA management, as they do have a long memory for stuff like this.

 

[Lear70]

ASA got this right. Even if Steve Chase walked into Gary's office, pounded on the desk and demanded SWAPA rates for AAI right now....he would be completely laughed out of the office. Gary is going to do what he's going to do. Just look at the second agreement, that's all the proof you need.

True story.

Lear,

The deal was the deal. It could have been voted down again by the MEC, or the members. It wasn't. Threatened your job? Yep, Gary wanted a deal and put big numbers into the first one. He really felt like he got egg on his face after the MEC voted down his best offer. Now its offer number two which we all live under. I don't see SW just opening the checkbook prior to 2015. No way. To keep thinking so is beating your head against the wall.

Can't really argue the first part. For the rest, that's up to the MEC.

Sitting here in Cancun at the all-inclusive beach-front it's hard to be pi$$ed at much. I'm outta this thread, you guys have fun without me. Just going to enjoy all these Montego Bay and Cancun 24-hr overnights until I'm dragged kicking and screaming across the partition.

Cheers :beer:

 

[waveflyer]

Yet you were the driving force on this thread Lear-
I respect you Lear, but it's time to let go of a lot of things- namely the conspiracy theories-
You lost out on SLI 1 bc you pushed for more- now you're doing it again expecting a different result-
You're living a self fulfilled prophecy- its like watching an unhappy teenager unwilling to see how his own behavior keeps him in trouble
My bet- if you'd stop pushing so hard, you'd have a better chance of getting what you want-
Keep playing the hardball angle and you won't.
Read- you went from #7 in base bc of change and some of Clinton's arithmetic - its that simple- youre in process of getting absorbed by a much bigger, older pilot group- I get that pilots at air tran tended to opt for an air tran career for quick advancement and quick seniority, that seniority is what you value- but ultimately, they were a cheap takeover target, so going for that came with some risk of being acquired- did you not realize that when hired there???-
As my good friends at American will attest- things change and change quick- these changes you're dealing with- are not the worst this gig can throw at you- and in fact, could be considered quite good changes with the right mindset-

 

[Max Powers]

yet you were the driving force on this thread lear-
i respect you lear, but it's time to let go of a lot of things- namely the conspiracy theories-
you lost out on sli 1 bc you pushed for more- now you're doing it again expecting a different result-
you're living a self fulfilled prophecy- its like watching an unhappy teenager unwilling to see how his own behavior keeps him in trouble
my bet- if you'd stop pushing so hard, you'd have a better chance of getting what you want-
keep playing the hardball angle and you won't.
Read- you went from #7 in base bc of change and some of clinton's arithmetic - its that simple- youre in process of getting absorbed by a much bigger, older pilot group- i get that pilots at air tran tended to opt for an air tran career for quick advancement and quick seniority, that seniority is what you value- but ultimately, they were a cheap takeover target, so going for that came with some risk of being acquired- did you not realize that when hired there???-
as my good friends at american will attest- things change and change quick- these changes you're dealing with- are not the worst this gig can throw at you- and in fact, could be considered quite good changes with the right mindset-

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[humveedriver]

I think all of us would like to put this behind us. But the great white leader in Dallas has to keep mucking things up along the way. Getting rid of airplanes (to our number one competitor, no less), deviating from the transition bid (which was mostly a stab in the dark to begin with), placing most of their key transition target dates close to 1 Jan 2015, and not showing any real sense of urgency with the whole transition progress. Makes it hard to just ignore what is going on and just being along for the ride. Not that we have much choice one way or the other. There just hasn't been anything that has impressed the pilot group with this whole process, other than not being furloughed. And I suspect that will be the next card played by SWA management if things don't go their way or we finally take care of Iran.

 

[freightdogfred]

Lear, just remember, you voted for it. No gun to your head, options to go to arbitration.

Well, not really but if you say it enough times perhaps people will believe it.

 

[scoreboardII]

Well, yes really. No guns. Any photo's of guns? No. Company was ready to complete their side of the deal, go to arbitration, any proof, other than hearsay, to the contrary? No. Your right, if you repeat a Truth enough it is still the truth.

I have no doubt you had pressure applied, but thats called leverage and you guys fell for it, negotiations 101. We fall for it all the time! Welcome aboard!

 

[SWA717]

Well, not really but if you say it enough times perhaps people will believe it.

Fred, evidently this person wasn't at our road shows.

 

[scoreboardII]

No worries, we all got played, it's all good.

 

[freightdogfred]

Well, yes really. No guns. Any photo's of guns? No. Company was ready to complete their side of the deal, go to arbitration, any proof, other than hearsay, to the contrary? No. Your right, if you repeat a Truth enough it is still the truth.

I have no doubt you had pressure applied, but thats called leverage and you guys fell for it, negotiations 101. We fall for it all the time! Welcome aboard!

Well you've harped on it enuff, so like I said, if you say it enuff, people will believe you. 84% of the FL voters did not believe you. That's why it was voted in. I do now believe what you say about your mgmt. now however. It's sad, I had high hopes for the whole thing but it is what it is.

 

[K-Mart]

I'm a SWA guy and hope the company gives the Airtran guys pay parity. Doesn't hurt me anything. Will the company do it? Doubtful. But it would be nice.

Hard to believe some of the guys at Airtran who opposed their membership from having the ability to vote on TA1 are still involved with the jobs in the Airtran ALPA union. Really??? Then they are on this thread pissed at SWAPA for not doing more. WTFO?? Oh yeah they still are involved in their union with positions. What the heck is wrong with Airtran union? These dudes should be gone from any union position. Look what some of these clowns did to you over there. Unfrickinbelievable. Or maybe the pilots over there don't care?? So then why should SWAPA?

 

[humveedriver]

I'm a SWA guy and hope the company gives the Airtran guys pay parity. Doesn't hurt me anything. Will the company do it? Doubtful. But it would be nice.

Hard to believe some of the guys at Airtran who opposed their membership from having the ability to vote on TA1 are still involved with the jobs in the Airtran ALPA union. Really??? Then they are on this thread pissed at SWAPA for not doing more. WTFO?? Oh yeah they still are involved in their union with positions. What the heck is wrong with Airtran union? These dudes should be gone from any union position. Look what some of these clowns did to you over there. Unfrickinbelievable. Or maybe the pilots over there don't care?? So then why should SWAPA?

SWA management has all the leverage. They are the ones who have and will inflict the necessary pain until all AirTran pilots capitulate. The can write any agreement or side letter without having to worry about actually following through with content of these agreements. They just change the rules to fit their needs. SWAPA represents SWA pilots. Even though the SLI is over SWAPA will continue to take whatever they can from the AirTran pilots. That's sad to me, but it's what Steve Chase and the rest of you want apparently. All things considered this has to be one of the worst integrations of pilots in terms of time and changes to expectations post SLI.

 

[redflyer65]

SWA management has all the leverage. They are the ones who have and will inflict the necessary pain until all AirTran pilots capitulate. The can write any agreement or side letter without having to worry about actually following through with content of these agreements. They just change the rules to fit their needs. SWAPA represents SWA pilots. Even though the SLI is over SWAPA will continue to take whatever they can from the AirTran pilots. That's sad to me, but it's what Steve Chase and the rest of you want apparently. All things considered this has to be one of the worst integrations of pilots in terms of time and changes to expectations post SLI.

Humvee,

I agree with most things you post and I can't disagree that this should have gone smoother, but how is SWAPA continuing to take and take from the AAI pilots?

 

[jonjuan]

SWA management has all the leverage. They are the ones who have and will inflict the necessary pain until all AirTran pilots capitulate. The can write any agreement or side letter without having to worry about actually following through with content of these agreements. They just change the rules to fit their needs. SWAPA represents SWA pilots. Even though the SLI is over SWAPA will continue to take whatever they can from the AirTran pilots. That's sad to me, but it's what Steve Chase and the rest of you want apparently. All things considered this has to be one of the worst integrations of pilots in terms of time and changes to expectations post SLI.

Looks like it's time to start your version of the Crandall Crawl.

 

[humveedriver]

The capturing of upgrades business. Both the first AIP and the second AIP would have transferred Captain seats to SWA pilots as a result of system wide downgrades. We were born to lose with this deal. I naively thought SWA being the internal customer company that they told us they were, would fly the 717s to at least 2015 in the interest of global harmony with the pilot groups. And as if it's not bad enough that we the AT pilots got outmanauvered on this deal, Steve Chase releases his now monthly victory dance about it. Which is a crock anyway. He's just trying to save face during an election period, by trying to appear militant for the SWAPA cause. To me he obviously lacks the full spectrum of understanding and appreciation for the NEW job at hand which is to integrate AirTran pilots and negotiate a new contract that will effect future SWAPA pilots with no vote or input. I find him to be a one trick pony.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I understand why the AAI pilots are upset with the COMPANY's decision to dispose of the 717. I also understand that having a B scale labor group on property is not good for anyone in the long run. That being said neither of these decisions have involved SWAPA or any SWAPA pilot. At no point in this whole process has SWAPA had any leverage. The AAI pilots say they voted with a gun to their heads. Well speaking for myself as a SWA pilot so did I. My choices were vote for this or not. SWAPA didn't write this SLI agreement SWA did. Voting yes meant accepting a b scale labor group, accepting a probable displacement out of my domicile for several years, and accepting seniority regression during the transition. Voting yes meant a permanent displacement and never upgrading.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Thinking that the SWAPA pilots will gain extra captain seats as a result of the departure of the 717 assumes that the 717 airframes will be replaced by 737s. I would be willing to bet that few if any will. Gary thinks in terms of ASMs not airframes. Given that 2 717s could be replaced by one -800 with minimal ASM loss, I think in the face of a weak economy and high fuel prices that MGT will use the opportunity to shrink ASMs and airframes. Look at the AAI station closures and the combination of capacity on routes. All this before IT can even get their act together to codeshare. Gents we are missing the forest for the trees. In the short term their is pain on both sides. SWA F/Os being displaced and loss of AAI Captain seats. In the long run we are all in this together and it may be a really bumpy ride.

 

[scoreboardII]

SWA management has all the leverage. They are the ones who have and will inflict the necessary pain until all AirTran pilots capitulate. The can write any agreement or side letter without having to worry about actually following through with content of these agreements. They just change the rules to fit their needs. SWAPA represents SWA pilots. Even though the SLI is over SWAPA will continue to take whatever they can from the AirTran pilots. That's sad to me, but it's what Steve Chase and the rest of you want apparently. All things considered this has to be one of the worst integrations of pilots in terms of time and changes to expectations post SLI.

except for that no furlough part in the worst economy since the telegraph, pay parity for everyone 2015, etc, but don't let the facts get in the way that this will go down as the best merger ever. Until it's proven otherwise.

Not to worry about Steve C, he has no chance to be re-elected.

 

[RLAblows]

I understand why the AAI pilots are upset with the COMPANY's decision to dispose of the 717. I also understand that having a B scale labor group on property is not good for anyone in the long run. That being said neither of these decisions have involved SWAPA or any SWAPA pilot. At no point in this whole process has SWAPA had any leverage. The AAI pilots say they voted with a gun to their heads. Well speaking for myself as a SWA pilot so did I. My choices were vote for this or not. SWAPA didn't write this SLI agreement SWA did. Voting yes meant accepting a b scale labor group, accepting a probable displacement out of my domicile for several years, and accepting seniority regression during the transition. Voting yes meant a permanent displacement and never upgrading.

What would voting "no" have done? Where was the "proverbial" gun to the SWA pilots head?

 

[scoreboardII]

Arbitration with the "fear the unknown" sale job from the union that we would take heavy losses in seniority.

I think arby would have given us better years of service across the board with some seat locks on your side.

 

[Ty Webb]

. . . . . Steve Chase . . . . . obviously lacks the full spectrum of understanding and appreciation for the NEW job at hand which is to integrate AirTran pilots and negotiate a new contract that will effect future SWAPA pilots with no vote or input. I find him to be a one trick pony.

Bingo.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

What would voting "no" have done? Where was the "proverbial" gun to the SWA pilots head?

Our other choice was arbitration. If that arbitrated result would have fallen anywhere within the range of precident I would have been so far down the list I would have never upgraded and would have been commuting to the West Coast forever. Given the demographic differances between the groups most SWA pilots would have faced greatly delayed upgrades or severly degraded seniority for the rest of their careers. Granted that is not as big a threat as unemployment but it is a HUGE negative consequence. At the end of the day as a result of this deal a some SWA pilots got accelerated upgrades but will be sitting on the bottom of the captain list for a very long time, some, myself included, are moving backwards in the transition, and most are unaffected.

 

[SWA717]

Thinking that the SWAPA pilots will gain extra captain seats as a result of the departure of the 717 assumes that the 717 airframes will be replaced by 737s. I would be willing to bet that few if any will. Gary thinks in terms of ASMs not airframes. Given that 2 717s could be replaced by one -800 with minimal ASM loss, I think in the face of a weak economy and high fuel prices that MGT will use the opportunity to shrink ASMs and airframes. Look at the AAI station closures and the combination of capacity on routes. All this before IT can even get their act together to codeshare. Gents we are missing the forest for the trees. In the short term their is pain on both sides. SWA F/Os being displaced and loss of AAI Captain seats. In the long run we are all in this together and it may be a really bumpy ride.

+1 and well said!

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I am unclear about what the AAI pilots expect from Steve C. He has a duty to enforce the contract he and the SLI agreement he has today which is what he is doing. The most important thing he can do for ALL SWA pilots on both sides of the partition is pressure the company to comply with the Jan 1 2015 date which he is doing. Even if the worst is true and as Lear states he is passively working against the AAI pilots it really would have no effect. The company does what it wants regardless of how SWAPA or Steve C. feel. They don't respect/fear SWAPA that much and never have. If in theory the company wanted to give the AAI pilots something extra he of coure would attempt to use that as leverage to gain something in the SWAPA contract. Who wouldn't? Whatever in theory that gain might be will be shared by all pilots as they cross the partition. In the end win or lose Steve C. will be out of office in Jan 2015. Any gains by the AAI group now are limited to a subset of pilots and cost leverage in the long term goal of getting us all a better contract beyond 2015.