SWAPA looking to capture more Capt seats

[Lear70]

Then you wouldn't mind if we asked Steve Chase to come with us to our next negotiating session and saying SWAPA pilots won't mind if we get compensation equal to the cost of what we are losing monthly in pay since the draw-down plus what the Captains will lose unt they upgrade again?

Pretty sure this has been done and we were told no thanks by SWAPA.

 

[Lear70]

Double post.

 

[Lear70]

Then you wouldn't mind if we asked Steve Chase to come with us to our next negotiating session and saying SWAPA pilots won't mind if we get compensation equal to the cost of what we are losing monthly in pay since the draw-down plus what the Captains will lose unt they upgrade again? Without SWAPA getting anything more since they are already getting more CA seats from the 717 deal?

Pretty sure this has been done and we were told no thanks by SWAPA.

 

[scoreboardII]

Because maybe we asked for the AT side to go to SWA and state Right of return was no big deal, because AT already has RoR. Nope, didn't happen. Karma is a bitch.

 

[redflyer65]

Then you wouldn't mind if we asked Steve Chase to come with us to our next negotiating session and saying SWAPA pilots won't mind if we get compensation equal to the cost of what we are losing monthly in pay since the draw-down plus what the Captains will lose unt they upgrade again?

Pretty sure this has been done and we were told no thanks by SWAPA.

So hypothetically, if Steve did go, and did 'approve it' from the SWAPA veiwpoint....you honestly think they would? Really?

I have to disagree.

 

[Lear70]

Maybe, maybe not.

But it would go a long way towards easing some feelings around here if we felt we had ANY support from SWAPA.

 

[FlyinGuy]

I am not sure why you need to feel any support from SWAPA. The deal is what it is. If SWA has moved your cheese, then you (ALPA) go to SWA and negotiate. Of course GK, VdV, and Chuck will all blame it on SWAPA. They are not going to fork over one red cent to your group because it is about cash out the door not about negotiating with SWAPA.

I know things are not going well for some of you. Blaming SWAPA or the pilots is like (insert really good analogy). Anyway, they are not going to negotiate a new contract with us anytime soon and I would be surprised if they give you any cash. Best of luck and hopefully things will start to move in a positive direction for everyone.

 

[Lear70]

I am not sure why you need to feel any support from SWAPA. The deal is what it is. If SWA has moved your cheese, then you (ALPA) go to SWA and negotiate. Of course GK, VdV, and Chuck will all blame it on SWAPA. They are not going to fork over one red cent to your group because it is about cash out the door not about negotiating with SWAPA.

I know things are not going well for some of you. Blaming SWAPA or the pilots is like (insert really good analogy). Anyway, they are not going to negotiate a new contract with us anytime soon and I would be surprised if they give you any cash. Best of luck and hopefully things will start to move in a positive direction for everyone.

Oh I'm not angry with the pilots. I recognize you wanted the best you could get, we all did, and I recognize that most of you could care less if they threw us a bone one way or another and might say "Well, we DID get a lot more CA seats than we were counting on, so good for you for getting SOMETHING for that curveball".

My beef is with SWAPA not stepping up to help. When SWA says "SWAPA would want something", it would be nice to walk in with SWAPA reps and for them to say "No, if you can give them something that doesn't hurt us (money) in compensation for the CA seats they're losing that we're gaining, we won't object."

Otherwise there's no way to counter SWA management's claim. If SWAPA would do that, I'd stop saying that they don't want us to have pay parity right now. But they won't, which leads me to one, inevitable conclusion.

Wouldn't take much to clear this one up IF, and I mean if SWAPA doesn't care if they throw us a bone...

 

[scoreboardII]

Sorry Lear, SWAPA has a duty to NOT step up and help the AT side, anything they do to help sets them up for failure to defend the SWAPA pilots. Put another way, one more penny to your side, in the end, takes a penny away from our side, sorry if you don't see the business aspect of this deal.

 

[jonjuan]

Turning into usair v. america west.

 

[scoreboardII]

Absolutely not, when it's all over, one team, that team is still two mutually opposed entities and split, and not our fault.

 

[Lear70]

Sorry Lear, SWAPA has a duty to NOT step up and help the AT side, anything they do to help sets them up for failure to defend the SWAPA pilots. Put another way, one more penny to your side, in the end, takes a penny away from our side, sorry if you don't see the business aspect of this deal.

Oh I *DO* see it that way, but that brings us back to my original point, which Bubba was debating:

SWAPA *IS* working against us to achieve pay parity, albeit passively, for the exact reason you stated above, and is also why SWAPA is in NO hurry to take over representation.

No use gnashing teeth about it, just didn't want there to be any mistake about what exactly is going on with the situation. We're dead in the water because:

1. If we sue to negate the SIA due to the basis of it being rendered null and void (717 protections in exchange for seniority) and win (50/50), we no longer have a no-furlough policy and we're so grossly overstaffed we'd likely have WARN notices out the door for 1/3 of the remaining pilots faster than you can say "reciprocity". (this is why people convinced Schroll to abandon his lawsuit - 99% certain that this is where he was going with it, we discussed it before he left). They'd stop all transitions until the issue was worked out, which could be years if it becomes UAir/AWA.

2. The grievance sucks because you have no way to PROVE the EXACT extent of monetary damages for the loss of the 717's because you can't predict future upgrade / growth to know how long it will take our CA's to get back in the seat and no arbitrator is going to play "I have a crystal ball".

3. There's no other mechanism to force them to come to the table. We've already withdrawn our relief from West Coast overnights (35k a month cost to the company to make all the West Coast stuff 20+ hr overnights - lines are so bad it wouldn't help us if they had the relief anyway) and we are refusing to give them relief from the training concerns stemming from having the flush bid holding up the way they want to transition pilots, but a $35 Million dollar price tag (training and other relief they need) is cheaper than a $120 Million dollar price tag (pay parity).

4. We've got nothing else to bargain with.

So, without the support of SWAPA to stop fighting us to gain pay parity now (or even snap-up to TFP calculated pay or snap-up to 2014 pay rates in our CBA which has been proposed and rejected), and the unavailability of any other avenue to fight, we're pretty much screwed.

That's the message the Association can't put out there. We go 'round and 'round but, at the end of the day, neither SWA nor SWAPA WANTS us to have anything more than we already do, so what we have now is what we have.

Can't do anything about it, but don't want people under any illusion that there's something positive "just around the corner".

 

[humveedriver]

Oh I *DO* see it that way, but that brings us back to my original point, which Bubba was debating:

SWAPA *IS* working against us to achieve pay parity, albeit passively, for the exact reason you stated above, and is also why SWAPA is in NO hurry to take over representation.

No use gnashing teeth about it, just didn't want there to be any mistake about what exactly is going on with the situation. We're dead in the water because:

1. If we sue to negate the SIA due to the basis of it being rendered null and void (717 protections in exchange for seniority) and win (50/50), we no longer have a no-furlough policy and we're so grossly overstaffed we'd likely have WARN notices out the door for 1/3 of the remaining pilots faster than you can say "reciprocity". (this is why people convinced Schroll to abandon his lawsuit - 99% certain that this is where he was going with it, we discussed it before he left). They'd stop all transitions until the issue was worked out, which could be years if it becomes UAir/AWA.

2. The grievance sucks because you have no way to PROVE the EXACT extent of monetary damages for the loss of the 717's because you can't predict future upgrade / growth to know how long it will take our CA's to get back in the seat and no arbitrator is going to play "I have a crystal ball".

3. There's no other mechanism to force them to come to the table. We've already withdrawn our relief from West Coast overnights (35k a month cost to the company to make all the West Coast stuff 20+ hr overnights - lines are so bad it wouldn't help us if they had the relief anyway) and we are refusing to give them relief from the training concerns stemming from having the flush bid holding up the way they want to transition pilots, but a $35 Million dollar price tag (training and other relief they need) is cheaper than a $120 Million dollar price tag (pay parity).

4. We've got nothing else to bargain with.

So, without the support of SWAPA to stop fighting us to gain pay parity now (or even snap-up to TFP calculated pay or snap-up to 2014 pay rates in our CBA which has been proposed and rejected), and the unavailability of any other avenue to fight, we're pretty much screwed.

That's the message the Association can't put out there. We go 'round and 'round but, at the end of the day, neither SWA nor SWAPA WANTS us to have anything more than we already do, so what we have now is what we have.

Can't do anything about it, but don't want people under any illusion that there's something positive "just around the corner".

To put it another way. It's cool some of you SWA pilots got to work for the Southwest Airlines that was an incredible airline AND an incredible place to work. Unfortunately that is an airline of the past.

 

[madjack]

U can't have sl9 back...

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

I'm good with option 1 and 2.

 

[waveflyer]

The quicker we are all one group the better- disappointed, as I've always been, that we're dragging out separate ops this long- appears shady-

This swa guy is not particularly stoked about AT pilots being paid less while the company drags this out twice as long as it ought to take

 

[waveflyer]

To put it another way. It's cool some of you SWA pilots got to work for the Southwest Airlines that was an incredible airline AND an incredible place to work. Unfortunately that is an airline of the past.

That gets you the same response I give the swa pilots- who else is better? And what are YOU doing, besides posting negative crap on FI, to make this place better?

It'll be what we make it- GK is the most influential- but we have a big role in what culture we have here - remember that

 

[humveedriver]

That gets you the same response I give the swa pilots- who else is better? And what are YOU doing, besides posting negative crap on FI, to make this place better?

It'll be what we make it- GK is the most influential- but we have a big role in what culture we have here - remember that

Wave, my flights are awesome. I'm the Captain. I set the the tone. I don't do drama, slam click or get wrapped up in the small stuff. I can bring that attitude to any airline or even job. So as long as the captains that I fly with have a similar approach not much should change. That's the world I live in. The decisions that SWA makes is something out of my control. You can't deny that SWA has changed its business model and is looking for concessions. I classify that as negative and not crap.

 

[737tanker]

SWAPA *IS* working against us to achieve pay parity, albeit passively, for the exact reason you stated above, and is also why SWAPA is in NO hurry to take over representation.

What AirTran needs to do is force the issue. Go to the NMB and have them declare that SWAPA is a union for both AirTran and SWA. SWAPA will drag their feet because it is easier for them. So force the issue and make it happen.

 

[ASADFW7]

SWAPA helping AAI pilots would be a DFR case and potentionally end the association.