SWAPA/ATN: Why no JCBA?

[GuppyWN]

You should know me better than that! I'm just done fighting with you guys. That way when SWAPA gets me a killer deal I can say I didn't care either way and "beers are on me." :laugh:

Gup

 

[Cometman]

Lear 70
Irritated people will dig their feet in on a debate and become hostile. Again, something we DON'T need. I understand people like Bob Dylan and Cometman who don't work at either carrier tossing a little gasoline on the fire, it's FlightInfo, that's normal ops here. But people who actually WORK for our carriers don't need to be poking each other in the eye with the proverbial stick, do we?

I do not post the same as Bob Dylan. I asked questions that makes you debate. The subject you are debating right now is something I asked before. I am curious and want to hear from both sides.

 

[Lear70]

You should know me better than that! I'm just done fighting with you guys. That way when SWAPA gets me a killer deal I can say I didn't care either way and "beers are on me." :laugh:

Gup

Nice...

:beer:

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Lear 70
Irritated people will dig their feet in on a debate and become hostile. Again, something we DON'T need. I understand people like Bob Dylan and Cometman who don't work at either carrier tossing a little gasoline on the fire, it's FlightInfo, that's normal ops here. But people who actually WORK for our carriers don't need to be poking each other in the eye with the proverbial stick, do we?

I do not post the same as Bob Dylan. I asked questions that makes you debate. The subject you are debating right now is something I asked before. I am curious and want to hear from both sides.

I think you forgot which user name you were posting under there tex. It appears you are exactly what you claim not to be. Some guy just trying to stir the pot.

 

[Lear70]

I do not post the same as Bob Dylan. I asked questions that makes you debate. The subject you are debating right now is something I asked before. I am curious and want to hear from both sides.

No, you don't, but some of the way you ask your questions seem geared towards a specific side and have provoked some of our more "vocal" pilots to respond more aggressively than they might have otherwise, and any time I see that from someone without a dog in the hunt, my immediate first reaction is "Provocateur".

That may just be perception, as message boards are, by large, very BAD ways to try to communicate. Body language and tone is lost (80% of that non-verbal communication picture) and people say things in anonymity they might not otherwise say in person (not you specifically, just dangers of a message board).

 

[Cometman]

No, you don't, but some of the way you ask your questions seem geared towards a specific side and have provoked some of our more "vocal" pilots to respond more aggressively than they might have otherwise, and any time I see that from someone without a dog in the hunt, my immediate first reaction is "Provocateur".

That may just be perception, as message boards are, by large, very BAD ways to try to communicate. Body language and tone is lost (80% of that non-verbal communication picture) and people say things in anonymity they might not otherwise say in person (not you specifically, just dangers of a message board).

Thanks for clarifying that. I could ask the same question different but then the SWA guys will think I am leaning toward Airtran. Either way somebody will feel hurt. The main thing is to ask questions. I am sure if I ask the question then it must be something that needs to be answered. Unless it is something you do not want to hear or to think about.

 

[Kharma Police]

You can say that again. AirTran captains are basically willing to destroy a great company all for their greed!

Dude, we STILL hear your broken record skipping....skip....skip....skip....skip....

1. Staple is the only fair thing

2. Have a vote on a staple

3. AirTran Captains are greedy

 

[Cruncher]

Lear,

I know this is a rhetorical question:
Would you rather this not go through (considering your latest TA) and stay as AAI?

 

[ASADFW7]

As for the JCBA. It is hard for me to say if this would be a good deal or not for SWA pilots. Obviously it would be a good deal for AT pilots as the disparity between the contracts is well known. I think the majority of SWA pilots acknowledge this disparity and are keeping their cards with their M&A team. We have our own issues, 800s, Hawaii, growth, displacements, and a CEO who is growing by 25% by not upgrading a single pilot on the SWA seniority list. I apologize if SWA pilots are a little distracted right now. Nothing personal folks but life is not getting better for a lot of SWA pilots in the short term in regards to this acquisition. And this 18 months dude who preaches that his TA will trump everything else, you are a broken record, and need a time out.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Lear70, I understand that without the acquisition you would upgrade in 2 or so years and enjoy roughly 5% increase over SWA FO straight pay. But you would be at the TOP of your earning potential. No further raises, save for longevity. With the acquisition you would have another 50% raise waiting for you after upgrade. Which do you want? Just want to make sure I understand.

 

[PCL_128]

Let's assume the ATN/ALPA crew had the authority to negate the merger after 18 months. Let's assume they exercise that authority.

How do you think that would go over with the majority AAI pilot group?

Who said anything about negating the merger? That's not what an expedited arbitration would do.

What contract are you refering too? Is it the TA that just came out? I don't remember you having a 18 month closing date in your previous contract.

Don't need to. The CBA in place on the transaction date is binding, not the old contract.

 

[Cometman]

Who said anything about negating the merger? That's not what an expedited arbitration would do.



Don't need to. The CBA in place on the transaction date is binding, not the old contract.

Is the transaction date when the deal was made or when the deal is closed?

 

[Lear70]

Cruncher and Hose: well, seeing as I don't really get a vote, not that it matters, but,,,

I've said from the beginning that I'm excited about the possibilities this brings for all the employees of both companies and their customers.

I love the idea that I will work for a carrier that actually flies into my home town and I can actually USE my pass privileges for a change. The fact that this is a focus city and might someday be a base is even better!

I like the idea of a management team that functions more closely to my own work ethic, not to mention the fact that they've successfully managed a company with NO furloughs in their fairly-lengthy existence, and focus on their employees as their primary customer.

While the pay and benefits are undeniably better, I will miss the quicker upgrade and have a natural fear for getting bumped out of my new base (MCO) and being pushed WAY down the list (a staple would mean I might only have 5-6 years left to fly after I upgrade, IF I upgrade).

It's all about perspective. I've been furloughed twice with one failed carrier (among other hiccups in my career), so in many ways I'm just happy to be here and my main focus is "what if the worst happens"? Being a 29-year-old 727 Captain didn't do me much good when the company was out of business 6 months later, nor did being an off-the-street CA at a Regional when the airline furloughed most of us just 30 days after we were online, and I've therefore taken a lot of life's lessons about job security (or lack thereof) in the aviation world to heart, not that I think Southwest is in dire straits whatsoever, but we're pilots... we're always contingency planning... especially those of us who've been "bitten" before.

However, my thoughts likely aren't the same as a junior F/O or a CA. I'm sure there's a few AAI Senior CA's who don't like that the deal is happening (and one F/O I can think of ), just as much as I'm sure that without a doubt the new-hires in class are doing back-flips, knowing they'd be in the bottom of the list either way and just increased their career earnings by at least 60-70% with a better reserve life and increased stability with one of the best airlines in the world.

In truth, none of us have a say in it, we're just along for the ride and I'm happy to be here. And since I think the integration won't ever approach a staple, I'm happy it's happening and will sit in the right seat until I upgrade, however the SLI goes, and say "I'll have the chicken, Captain, and shall I take the ugly one?"

 

[vixin]

I guess we need a side letter is ours then that states we STAPLE all aquired pilots. Works for me. Wake up and stop dreaming. The trannies and their I want everything attitudes will ruin SWA.

 

[Max Powers]

Lear70, I understand that without the acquisition you would upgrade in 2 or so years and enjoy roughly 5% increase over SWA FO straight pay. But you would be at the TOP of your earning potential. No further raises, save for longevity. With the acquisition you would have another 50% raise waiting for you after upgrade. Which do you want? Just want to make sure I understand.

So whats your point???? What does that have to do with SLI? A few of you SWA guys are clueless-will make for a rough start for all of us. Why are you so jealous that we get a raise? Because all you care about is yourself and whats in it for you. Our low pay the past decade helped to build a quality LCC which your company wanted badly enough to pay a couple billion for if you include our debt in the mix. So we have earned the pay raise and SWA will get their growth.

 

[vixin]

Pot meet kettle. You havent earned squat on SWA property.

 

[Ty Webb]

Yawn.

Vixin, Bob Dyldo, etc. aren't even worth interacting with. Their viewpoints are so extreme, it's like trying to reason with a 2 year-old who's crabby, crappy, and needs a nap.

 

[funnyman12]

On of the best advocates for Airtran getting a fair shake in the airlines integration is Gary Kelly. He has said several times that without this acquisition, SWA would not be hiring for the next 2 years. Id imagine the arbitrator(s) will have the video/transcrips of Mr. Kelly's positive comments on opportunity and growth this acquisition gives the employees or SWA. I think this acquisition injects energy into SWA and will make many airlines nervous, aka Delta.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

It will all be better when my fellow SWAPA pilots realize that the AAI pilots wil be awarded at least the first 1700 spots on the new seniority list. I'm sure thats the staple that they keep talking about. I'll still buy the beer when I'm pulling gear for the AAI guy that was in class the date the acquistion was announced.

 

[Kharma Police]

I guess we need a side letter is ours then that states we STAPLE all aquired pilots. Works for me. Wake up and stop dreaming. The trannies and their I want everything attitudes will ruin SWA.

Vixin, that's a chick name, right? If so, I can understand the monthly mood swings and irrational temper........

 

[Kharma Police]

It will all be better when my fellow SWAPA pilots realize that the AAI pilots wil be awarded at least the first 1700 spots on the new seniority list. I'm sure thats the staple that they keep talking about. I'll still buy the beer when I'm pulling gear for the AAI guy that was in class the date the acquistion was announced.

It was funny the first time guy. Time to put that old joke out to pasture.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

What joke? From my perspective This is a very likely outcome 1700 AAI pilots on top of me on the seniority list. I have to have a sense of humor about this or it would drive me crazy.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

So whats your point???? What does that have to do with SLI? A few of you SWA guys are clueless-will make for a rough start for all of us. Why are you so jealous that we get a raise? Because all you care about is yourself and whats in it for you. Our low pay the past decade helped to build a quality LCC which your company wanted badly enough to pay a couple billion for if you include our debt in the mix. So we have earned the pay raise and SWA will get their growth.

Relax Max, rich is the one who brought up "lost pay". My point is that he will be better off pay wise at SWA even with longer upgrade, so he needn't lose any sleep. I just didn't want Rich to worry.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

And yes Max, you guys DO deserve a pay raise. That cannot be denied.

 

[PCL_128]

Is the transaction date when the deal was made or when the deal is closed?

When the deal closes.

I guess we need a side letter is ours then that states we STAPLE all aquired pilots. Works for me. Wake up and stop dreaming. The trannies and their I want everything attitudes will ruin SWA.

You can't enforce side letters that aren't consistent with federal law. Sorry.

 

[ivauir]

In the integration, some of us (myself included) may get our upgrade delayed by YEARS, and we're just gonna have to suck that up if it works out that way. Under the new T.A., that's going to cost me between $6,000 and $10,000 per year moving forward over SWA F/O rates..

You need to take a closer look at our contract. Every AAI pilot gets a raise - EVEN IF THERE ARE DOWNGRADES. Making the trip conversion is tough, but to really understand you need to dig into our work rules.

You are gonna LUV it here brother!

 

[luv2fly]

When the deal closes.

You are wrong on so many levels.

Oh forget it!!

Whats the use. If all your rhetoric makes you feel better so be it, I hope you will be able to deal with it when your expectations fall well short of your "know it all" speculation!

 

[Richard Gozinya]

.... have a natural fear for getting bumped out of my new base (MCO) and being pushed WAY down the list

This is the big one for many. We have set on reserve in some of the most unbelievably unsafe areas for 2 1/2 years waiting to get SOMEWHAT closer to home. $8000 is what I have spent on hotel's since coming to SWA. To be able to drive to work is huge, as all of the Tranny commuters know. To have the fence come down around Atl, opens all the bases in our system. To get bumped out of a base, to me, is the equivalent of getting bumped out of a seat. You are right, it is all about perspective. To be bumped out of a base after the SLI is.....kind of like being bumped out of a seat, or losing an anticipated upgrade, wouldn't you say?

 

[scarlet]

If can't come to terms guess what=ARBITRATION = wonder how they will rule? I think SWAPA would rather control the numbers then let it go to arbitration.

Bet they don't rule like AA and TWA

Bet they rule more like DL/NWA=alot smoother !

It is all about ATL, and INTL, and Reservation computer system !

They don't care about our sen. number !

 

[redflyer65]

I think you might be surprised how an arbitration agreement would look like.

There really is no similarities with AAI/SW and DL/NW. None.

If you took the time to run the numbers, with a complete AAI staple every Airtran pilot would significantly increase their career earnings all the way to age 65. Period, end of story. That shows how much of a windfall this deal is for you guys.

I'm not saying a staple will happen, I'm just using it as an example and that's exactly the same stuff the arbiter will take into account. Just the same it won't be realitive seniority either.

I've heard the Airtran ALPA team is made up of some level headed, realistic guys, and that sounds like a good thing for everyone. I'm still hoping for an agreement on SLI. But have no worries that the list of gains is completely stacked on the AAI side and don't have any issues taking it to arbitration.

RF