SWAPA/ATN: Why no JCBA?

[Lear70]

I haven't heard anyone in the union come out and say "We will not be on SWA pay until we have an agreed SLI".

What they HAVE said is that we will not have SWAPA REPRESENTATION, meaning we will remain ALPA, until the SLI is complete, simply because it would bring DFR issues to be negotiating against the same group that is supposed to represent us. Have to stay separate until all the union issues are complete and agreed to.

When we go on SWA pay is purely a function of what SWA management and SWAPA come up with and is part of the "bridge agreement" (since some people don't want to call it a JCBA - whatever, same animal, different name). That bridge agreement will cover what the 717 will pay, when we go on SWA pay rates, SWA work rules, SWA flight and duty limits, SWA bidding, uniforms, etc, etc, etc.

It could be like DAL/NWA which happened on DOCC or it could be when the SLI is complete or it could be anywhere in between. Total mystery until that part of the puzzle comes out of Dallas. They *COULD* use it as a carrot/stick, but given the SWA management culture, I somewhat doubt it...

Golden opportunity for SWA management to show AirTran pilots how their culture works. Hope we all keep level heads, good attitudes, and open minds and git er done!

 

[Sy-bill]

And it appears they have the ability to drag that out for almost two years (18 months after Corporate closing).

This time line from the one being acquired really has no leverage. It has much more leverage from the acquiring airline. A simple staple approved by Swapa until the issue is finalized would satisfy this requirement. But more likely would be to violate that item in your contract and let it go to court for a couple more years.

At least on this forum you continually hear the AT pilots think that M/B will give them relative seniority, or close to that, and this must be accomplished in 18 months. I can appreciate your hoping this is all true but its not real. Too many variables to accurately predict your new career seniority to simplify it as such.

 

[Cometman]

Golden opportunity for SWA management to show AirTran pilots how their culture works. Hope we all keep level heads, good attitudes, and open minds and git er done!

Do you think that SWA management would be more interested in showing 1700 pilots from AirTran how their culture works or to show 6000 SWAPA pilots how they intend to keep their culture? Just curious.

 

[Ty Webb]

This time line from the one being acquired really has no leverage. It has much more leverage from the acquiring airline. A simple staple approved by Swapa until the issue is finalized would satisfy this requirement..

You're out of your mind. We can be operated separately until SLI, but if you think there would be a "temporary staple" until that time, someone has already stapled your temporal region.

 

[Cometman]

You're out of your mind. We can be operated separately until SLI, but if you think there would be a "temporary staple" until that time, someone has already stapled your temporal region.

I thought you said that they can only operate AirTran as a seperate airline for 18 months because of your contract. After 18 months the deal would be off.

 

[Lear70]

Do you think that SWA management would be more interested in showing 1700 pilots from AirTran how their culture works or to show 6000 SWAPA pilots how they intend to keep their culture? Just curious.

I would think they would strive for both. Implementing AAI pilots into SWA pay sooner rather than later would be a great step for establishing the new employees' relationship while simultaneously showing the existing SWA pilots that there will be no whipsawing with a "B" scale which has been so detrimental to the industry.

The downside is limited to the cost involved for doing so in payroll expenses. There aren't really any other downsides to doing so UNLESS they plan to take the carrot/stick approach. Assuming, of course, that there isn't some legal prohibitive reason in the Southwest CBA that I haven't heard about (and, admittedly, I haven't read their CBA in its entirety).

Time will tell.

 

[Cometman]

I would think they would strive for both. Implementing AAI pilots into SWA pay sooner rather than later would be a great step for establishing the new employees' relationship while simultaneously showing the existing SWA pilots that there will be no whipsawing with a "B" scale which has been so detrimental to the industry.

The downside is limited to the cost involved for doing so in payroll expenses. There aren't really any other downsides to doing so UNLESS they plan to take the carrot/stick approach. Assuming, of course, that there isn't some legal prohibitive reason in the Southwest CBA that I haven't heard about (and, admittedly, I haven't read their CBA in its entirety).

Time will tell.

That all sounds good. However, if that would not have any effect on that 18 month thing I keep hearing about in AirTran's contract why would SWAPA be in any hurry to get a SLI done? I would think AirTran would be in a hurry to complete the SLI to get things moving ahead. I believe somebody said that SWAPA can extend the 24 month deal they have. Would the AirTran deal be over if it goes beyond 18 months? If so, can you extend the 18 Months or is the deal dead at the end of the 18 month period? One other thing, after the close of the deal wouldn't all growth and new aircraft go to the SWA side?

 

[Lear70]

That all sounds good. However, if that would not have any effect on that 18 month thing I keep hearing about in AirTran's contract why would SWAPA be in any hurry to get a SLI done? I would think AirTran would be in a hurry to complete the SLI to get things moving ahead. I believe somebody said that SWAPA can extend the 24 month deal they have. Would the AirTran deal be over if it goes beyond 18 months? If so, can you extend the 18 Months or is the deal dead at the end of the 18 month period? One other thing, after the close of the deal wouldn't all growth and new aircraft go to the SWA side?

Well, I'm not an attorney, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, however, a few general business issues to address in those questions:

1. An 18 month (or 24 month) moratorium "or the deal is dead" doesn't work with publicly-traded companies. On Date Of Corporate Closing (DOCC), Southwest will own AirTran, through its wholly-owned temporary subsidiary (Guadalupe Holdings). There is no way to "undo" that purchase from the shareholder's perspective. Southwest spends the money, there aren't any refunds.

2. SWA *CAN* operate the airlines COMPLETELY separately, but there's no financial incentive to do it (quite an incentive to combine as soon as possible, actually), and the DOT and DOJ approval comes from statements of combined operations. I imagine they'd be under anti-trust scrutiny if they failed to do so, barring some 9/11 event that constituted an "Act of War" or "Act of God". If they DO combine operations, they can't spin off AAI or Guadalupe and must combine the seniority lists per B/M.

3. An extension would have to be agreed upon by the AirTran MEC (18 month), as a side-letter waiving or amending that portion of our CBA.

4. An extension on the SWAPA side (24 month), should that be determined to be the governing ruling (not going to get into that argument again, just discussing the possibility of it being the governing time span), would have to be agreed to by SWAPA. Obviously, if it behooves them to do so in the SLI argument, they might try it, but B/M is pretty specific in that once one side requests arbitration, there's not a huge leeway in time for it to be conducted, so if either side files for arbitration, there's not much either union or either airline's management can do except comply with the arbitrator's requests and decisions, barring some kind of UAir/AWA filing, and we see how well THAT has worked out.

5. My *PERSONAL* belief is that all future deliveries after DOCC will come to the Southwest side of the house. Reason being: there's simply no reason to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to change out interiors and livery with a new delivery; what a waste of money *THAT* would be. Yes, it will likely stagnate the AirTran growth after DOCC as those hulls go to Southwest for the 12-18 months while the companies are integrated, and quite a few SWA F/O's will upgrade sooner than expected out of the deal. Not great for AAI senior F/O's on the cusp of upgrade, especially if it DOES take a while to transition over to SWA pay and work rules, as that's a year and more losing out on CA pay by deliveries going to SWA. Hopefully they'll recoup that money on the back-side of their career earnings after SWA upgrade, present value of money notwithstanding, but we all know there are no guarantees on the future in the aviation world.

Just my personal thoughts on the matter, non-vetted through an attorney or either side's union leadership, so it's worth what you paid for it.

 

[roughneck]

The downside is limited to the cost involved for doing so in payroll expenses.

To the tune of about $13,000,000 a month for the pilots of AT to come to the SWA contract. That is a pretty compelling reason for SWA to not want to bring them over early.

 

[Lear70]

To the tune of about $13,000,000 a month for the pilots of AT to come to the SWA contract. That is a pretty compelling reason for SWA to not want to bring them over early.

True enough. Nothing for us to do but sit back and wait to see what happens. :beer: