SWAPA/ATN: Why no JCBA?

[texman]

Everyone mentions seniority as the "long pole in the tent". Fair enough. What does seniority buy you? Vacation, days off, certain days of flying, types of trips and the left seat. Those are the biggies.

With our flexibility and scheduling rules we can virtually build our own schedule, even as a very junior pilot. Obviously some months this is easier than others, but moving flying around to accommodate your schedule is not just possible but very likely.

Vacation and the left seat are what they are, but QOL is HUGE as a junior pilot at SWA. In my short time here my QOL is not much different than a 20+ year guy - seriously. The gap between seniority groups is very small. The luv is spread around to everyone, not just the senior. Since our trips are highly productive, you don't have to be senior to be productive. So again, the gap is very narrow. Left seat and vacation time are the only things that being junior won't get you.

How long do you have to work at other carriers to get flying you want and 17ish days off/month?

Thought I would share.

This is a good point. It is true guys. I am very Jr. I have used Elitt to get 18 days off and still pay 96 tfps X at 101.99 a trip. AT guys and gals you will be amazed on the flexibility you have even being Jr. Not trying to do a sells job but it is true. Let the good life start.

 

[Max Powers]

I will add that we are doing it with petty cash and left over stock from the bottom drawer. No SWA shareholder vote required.

Save money???? Its a stock swap for 700 million, that means no money there. The rest is 600 million which you will get back in full when you get the savings account we have.

Besides you guys have barely been making a profit these past few years. margins are around 5-6 percent. Not that great.

 

[funnyman12]

Im a relatively junior AT fo......3 1/2 years so far. I have off from this Saturday till next Sunday....8 days over the Thanksgiving holiday. Not bad with some schedule adjusting. I had off last Thanksgiving, Christmas eve, 4th of July, and New Years eve. I also have only worked a handful of weekends this year. There are tricks here that can enable a junior guy to work the system. I also average 17 days off....granted only 80 hrs of credit.

 

[roughneck]

Besides you guys have barely been making a profit these past few years.

We make more in a quarter than you do in a full year, we pay cash for our airplanes, we have the best debt to income ratio in the industry and we have the only investment grade rating in our industry. We have been profitable for nearly 40 years and have not furloughed. Ever!

Come on goofy, wake up you have your head gear on.

 

[Dan Roman]

Geez, I'm waiting for some of you guys to started comparing who has the biggest watches and how it should be a factor in merging lists.

 

[Ty Webb]

We make more in a quarter than you do in a full year, we pay cash for our airplanes, we have the best debt to income ratio in the industry and we have the only investment grade rating in our industry. We have been profitable for nearly 40 years and have not furloughed. Ever!

Come on goofy, wake up you have your head gear on.

If everything's so great, why are you so angry? :laugh:

 

[Lear70]

Because everyone keeps poking each other in the eye with the proverbial stick...

:angryfire:

 

[PCL_128]

FYI, The total cost of the T.A. over the ENTIRE duration is less than what AirTran will post in Net Profit THIS YEAR ALONE.

I think you got your numbers wrong. That's not true at all. But neither is roughneck's absurd statement, of course.

 

[ivauir]

I think you got your numbers wrong. That's not true at all. But neither is roughneck's absurd statement, of course.

There are many absurd statements being tossed around.

Let's talk FACTS:
- We just maxed out a profitability based raise.
- Your operation could not support our wages.
- There is money to be made here, or there wouldn't be a deal.

It is the Southwest way for pilots to share success. You guys need to get over here so you can be part of that. It's gonna be GREAT!

 

[PCL_128]

Agreed!

 

[mt2]

Ummm... really...? Flamebait at its finest...

Like Ty said: 10Q, among other things. ALPA fully vetted our ORIGINAL proposal and presented it PERSONALLY to AirTran's CEO and CFO. If THEY didn't complain about THAT, then you can imagine them settling well BELOW that proposal is well within the budget.

I'm not so sure I'd brag about that so much. Respectfully, ALPA and their bigwigs did the same at ATA several years ago -- telling all who would listen how the Company could afford the contract. Look how well the ALPA vetting worked out for them. Just sayin'...

 

[RedDogC130]

Speak for yourself, skippy, as long as there was a no-furlough clause, I'd take the longevity pay and happily go sit reserve in MCO, MDW, wherever...

I don't think I'd be in the minority, either. Our flight crews aren't nearly as negative as you think we are, except when it comes to being the longest major airline in mediation in recent history with a management group demanding concessions after the most profitable decade of the airline's entire history.

Give us SWA's contract, a management team that didn't constantly reinterpret it to our detriment, and furlough protection? You'd see a completely changed group dynamic. Not hard to understand...

I find it hard to believe that this quote by Lear70 has been ignored so long. This was back in late 2009. I wonder how many felt this way back then but now are changing there views to act tough.

 

[RedDogC130]

Im a relatively junior AT fo......3 1/2 years so far. I have off from this Saturday till next Sunday....8 days over the Thanksgiving holiday. Not bad with some schedule adjusting. I had off last Thanksgiving, Christmas eve, 4th of July, and New Years eve. I also have only worked a handful of weekends this year. There are tricks here that can enable a junior guy to work the system. I also average 17 days off....granted only 80 hrs of credit.

Perfect example. So at 3rd year straight pay you would gross about 4900 per month at 80 credits per mont at current AT rates per APC. Now you come to SWA and get the same 80 credits...which would take giving away at least a 3 day trip to get that low...and with our TFP you would gross 7392 per month. So you telling me you think AT guys will come here and get weekends and holidays off plus the almost 30000 raise min... this guys case... And not have to give anything up...such as seniority....hell I am going into my 5th year and I am working weekends...and this year flying thanksgiving...Xmas...and damn new years...has not always been the case but I do not se a 3 year AT guy getting that when they come here....better wake up and see the reality of your changing world....if my QOL would have to change for the worse with lower seniority...which might happen for an AT person...they better give me huge pay raise to compensate.....wait that will just happen.

 

[slaquer5]

I find it hard to believe that this quote by Lear70 has been ignored so long. This was back in late 2009. I wonder how many felt this way back then but now are changing there views to act tough.

Its time to give redDog time off for going against the moderator.

 

[Lear70]

I think you got your numbers wrong. That's not true at all. But neither is roughneck's absurd statement, of course.

I was told $140 Million increase over the term of the CBA. If that's incorrect, it came from the NC.

Isn't AirTran projected to net over $160 Million this year?

 

[Lear70]

I find it hard to believe that this quote by Lear70 has been ignored so long. This was back in late 2009. I wonder how many felt this way back then but now are changing there views to act tough.

It wasn't ignored. Someone else dredged that up in another thread about a month ago. I reminded people in THAT thread about the post's context, so it died, even though one or two people like to keep bumping it back up although it has no bearing on this discussion.

Why? Well back then I was a contract hostage and was flying Lears and Falcons gone 21+ days a month not making a whole lot of money while spending 3+ years trying to get my grievance heard (ANYWHERE on a seniority list sounded pretty good from that perspective), not to mention my entire post was in RESPONSE to someone who was saying AirTran pilots were all malcontents who wouldn't be able to blend in to the Southwest culture.

But I'm not surprised no one wants to talk about taking that comment IN CONTEXT. Take what you want, ignore the rest, is it Fox News or FI? We report. YOU decide.

But thanks for the trip down memory lane...

Moderator hat on:

Its time to give redDog time off for going against the moderator.

People don't get time in the penalty box for that, only for using profanity or going on a personal attack or any of the OTHER F.I. ToS.

However, if you want to discuss moderation AGAIN, go find THAT thread that attacks the mods and post in there. Don't start up again in here, threads WILL stay somewhere close to the original point of the thread topic.

/mod

 

[luv2fly]

I was told $140 Million increase over the term of the CBA. If that's incorrect, it came from the NC.

Isn't AirTran projected to net over $160 Million this year?

I guess you think you are the only costs at AT. In your world: other labor groups, fuel, leases, new airplanes, landing fees...etc. all are fixed costs. In your example if fuel went up 1 cent you guys would lose millions for the year.

Your new payrates are not sustainable, the only reason you got what you got is the acquisition announcement. If this doesn't go through, mark my words, you will be looking at concessions, again.

 

[Ty Webb]

RedDog et al-

Out TA vote closes today at 10 a.m. EST. The rates for FO's will become effective Dec 1, so any comparisons made using wages from our 2001 Contract are just a waste of time. You might as well be describing your plan to open a VHS video rental store.

And I think Lear put that post of his from 2 years ago in perspective- the man was on the street when he wrote it.

 

[Lear70]

I guess you think you are the only costs at AT. In your world: other labor groups, fuel, leases, new airplanes, landing fees...etc. all are fixed costs. In your example if fuel went up 1 cent you guys would lose millions for the year.

Did I say that? No, I didn't. You are grasping at straws and, again, only riling people up. You spread our contract cost increase out over several YEARS and it becomes a fraction of net yearly earnings, EASILY sustainable.

The F/A's will get a raise, the mechanics already got a raise, other costs of doing business will go up, and the company will continue to slowly increase fares, just as every OTHER airline has done, and everyone will be JUST fine. No one here is buying your arguments, especially on the AAI side; you're only talking to yourself and a few other 2%'ers at SWA who believe that somehow AAI was in trouble.

We're not ATA or Midwest, and no one considers this the same type of deal except for you and the 2%'ers.

Your new payrates are not sustainable, the only reason you got what you got is the acquisition announcement. If this doesn't go through, mark my words, you will be looking at concessions, again.

Duly marked,,, for what they're worth. Absolutely zero. But thanks for your constructive input into the conversation.

 

[luv2fly]

Did I say that? No, I didn't. You are grasping at straws and, again, only riling people up. You spread our contract cost increase out over several YEARS and it become a fraction of net earnings. The F/A's will get a raise, the mechanics already got a raise, other costs of doing business will go up, and the company will continue to slowly increase fares, just as every OTHER airline has done, and everyone will be JUST fine.


Duly marked,,, for what they're worth. Absolutely zero. But thanks for your constructive input into the conversation.

Your lack of general accounting is embarrassing. Your current raises increase AT costs enough to wipe out your best year's (2009) net profit. That increase in cost is per year. Call your union, or better yet just call your VC, or just call PCL.

Your current TA raises are just a carrot to get you guys to play nice until we finish buying you. Nothing more. If we don't buy you. Your TA rates will not be the rates you live with, your company cannot afford those rates. You will be asked to give them back.

JMHO of course!