SWA took one step closer to being a regional carrier

[CKJET]

I have a buddy with American...He has had 367 days off straight...course the pay has been less than he would like. I think I can live with only getting 17 days off a month.

PBS would kill any flexibility we have in our schedules. I prefer to make my lines better through elitt or trip/trade. I don't want the company trying make my lines better.

American has given me close to 1500 straight days off. I agree with your buddy the pay is not great!

 

[737tanker]

The thing that worries me about PBS is how it would handle vacations. Under the current rules at SWA I turned 1 week of vacation into 18 days off, and then I took 2 weeks of vacation in March and turned it into 31 days off. So for 3 weeks of vacation I had 49 days off, and I only lost 7 TFP. Could PBS do that? From everything I hear the answer is no..

 

[Tripower455]

The thing that worries me about PBS is how it would handle vacations. Under the current rules at SWA I turned 1 week of vacation into 18 days off, and then I took 2 weeks of vacation in March and turned it into 31 days off. So for 3 weeks of vacation I had 49 days off, and I only lost 7 TFP. Could PBS do that? From everything I hear the answer is no..

It could, but likely won't...

 

[canyonblue737]

I hear you on the schedule. The side letter was not very clear and it was only a test. I think that's why few voted on it. We definitely don't want PBS.

Unfortunately, I have spent alot of time debating the pro's and con's of PBS and I would say PBS may be what both sides are looking for. PBS would allow management to gain more productivity by eliminating most of the month to month integration and scheduling problems (saved heads like LOA 31), and it also would allow pilots the ability to build a schedule that has high credit and lower days off or lower credit and more days off.

Their are some potential hidden surprises in PBS and it would take a lot of testing to work out the hidden surprises and to ensure that PBS is the solution is really what the pilot group wants.

Dude, I am a SWA guy and I used to fly for a company with PBS. You *don't* want PBS, it will kill QOL for 90% of us. While you can make a PBS system give you similar benefits to what we have now, that negates the whole purpose of using PBS from the companies standpoint... so if and when we get PBS it will result in the loss of vacation time, scheduling conflicts that benefit the pilot, the extreme flexibility to change your schedule after you get it etc.

 

[canyonblue737]

PBS is unrelated to vacation. It's just a way to pick the trips you want to fly and put them into your monthly schedule.

Vacation is handled differently at different companies. Bid your line on PBS, then overlay vacation pn top, what's wrong with that?

With PBS you get the month of trips you want, instead of the month of trips that some guy who doesn't know you puts together.

the *whole point* of PBS from the companies perspective (and it will be expensive so they need a positive) is preventing vacation and monthly overlap issues. you will not get the company to overlay vacation on top of a PBS line... ever. as someone who flew a PBS system, i can't imagine ANYWAY you get a PBS system to produce the cash advantages and flexibility to change your line post receiving it... short of simply gutting the core of the PBS system that saves the company money... why they want it.

now if we decide the sacrifice in pay (vacation) and flexibility (tons of options to drop, elitt, trade etc. will be reduced by PBS) after the fact is worth the benefit to the company (due to poor industry conditions etc.) and the ability to get slightly closer to the line you wanted in the first place (in terms of trip density and destinations, a/c type etc.) that is a different story. just don't think you can have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Widow's Son]

I have never worked with PBS, but the guys that I have flown with who have say that it is nothing like what it is being made out to be. What is it about PBS that would make trip drop, trip trade, elitt, and other flexibility issues go away? Those are net zero items for the company now and they are happy as long as the trips get covered. Wouldn't all those items work independently from any scheduling scheme that we have and continue status quo whether we had PBS or anything else?
Personally I don't like having to spend a lot of time bidding and then a whole lot more time trying to make what I get acceptable through Elitt which I have never been able to connect to on the day it opens anyway. Regardless, if Elitt is so flexible to fix things wouldn't it be just as flexible under PBS especially if there were fewer things to fix?

 

[SWAPoolie]

For SWA people who don't read the SWAPA forum:

The only true way to know how PBS will affect us is to test it side by side with our current system for several months to a year. We would bid with the old method and the PBS method to see how PBS would turn out, but not use it. Just a real time test bed. This is how I tested systems at AT&T back when IT depts. were called CIS depts. I don't understand why we wouldn't do that here.

This way we can work out the details with actual use of the product and determine what is good for us and the company. I would like to think there would be a give and take from both parties.

Short of this, I'm voting no on PBS. That decision is purely based on the loose language of the current contract and the animosity toward the union I see each day from the people I meet and fly with. There needs to be more union trust out there and it's all in the details. Additionally, there are too many loopholes for the company to get us on and us to get the company on. If PBS isn't tested properly before going live with it the company will take advantage and the pilots who "work the system" will also take advantage. That leaves idealists like myself taking it from all sides.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Radar, The one thing I will NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, consider is PBS if it turns my 7 day vacation into a 7 day vacation. Last month I had 18 days off with a 7 day vacation bid.

Can you get 3 weeks off with a one week vacation award if you have PBS?

Gup

Last year I got 24 days off in a row with one week of vacation with PBS.

 

[GuppyWN]

Well there you have it. Who do you work for because I'm sure PBS is a very hot item for the company and I'd like to know who to reference as a comparison.

Thanks,
Gup

 

[Guppiedriver]

Dude, I am a SWA guy and I used to fly for a company with PBS. You *don't* want PBS, it will kill QOL for 90% of us. While you can make a PBS system give you similar benefits to what we have now, that negates the whole purpose of using PBS from the companies standpoint... so if and when we get PBS it will result in the loss of vacation time, scheduling conflicts that benefit the pilot, the extreme flexibility to change your schedule after you get it etc.

I can't believe that you used to work for a company that had PBS, because you clearly don't understand it.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Well there you have it. Who do you work for because I'm sure PBS is a very hot item for the company and I'd like to know who to reference as a comparison.

Thanks,
Gup

AWA (aka US Airways new). Everybody is afraid of PBS, because of the unknown. It's not perfect, but once you understand it pretty easy to use. IMO, the guys that have used it and still hate it are the guys that don't take that time to understand it.

I have had months where I was mis-awarded, because of a software programming glitch and got a sh!tty line. But I was able to trade most of the sh!tty trips out after the bid award. Our mis-award resolution sucks, so I went to the trade board and open time to fix my line. The mis-award was not PBS's fault, it was a human programming error. Garbage in = Garbage out.

We ran parallel bids for about six months until we switched over from paper bids to PBS. That way you could see how your PBS bid would turn out compared to your real paper bid. Each month you could tweak your PBS bid until you got results that matched your paper bid.

 

[Skyboy722]

I also came from a company that implemented PBS while I was there, and they ran a "Test period" as well. The only problem with that is that it only takes a couple of guys who choose not to participate because it's not "the real thing", and the results for everyone junior to them are severely skewed. I was thrilled with the lines that PBS built for me, until the tests were over and the real thing began. Then, of course, everyone bid. And I never saw a decent line again.

 

[Tripower455]

Garbage in = Garbage out.

Herein lies the problem........ I do not trust our union to cull the garbage out of what goes into the program......

 

[canyonblue737]

i used PBS for 3 years.

i can't deny it makes nice lines in many cases and it gives pilots lots of options for creating their line. the problem of PBS isn't PBS itself, it is how it compares with what SWA has NOW. PBS will causes MAJOR issues with vacation time and pay and it will reduce flexibility compared to our current ELITT/TRADE/DROP system because it will eliminate the vast majority of overlap issues that create the open time trips that allow for changes to trips and open time picks up above and beyond your normal line. can you make PBS leave open time, or allow the company to overlay overlap corrections on top... yes you can but then you eliminate the reason for going to a PBS system which is to realize a cost savings from fixing overlap and vacation issues.

you can't accurately say PBS is good because Airline X loves it, you have to ask what they had before in terms of a system. perhaps the old way didn't have much flexibility after the lines were awarded so the pilots now are really happy because their initial lines are more what they want. but to decide if PBS is good for SWA you have to weigh how the system creates lines (based on how it is programmed which is decided between the company/SWAPA in the contract) vs. what we have now. i just can't see a way we won't lose because frankly what we have now is really a steal of a deal in terms of what we can get away with and the whole reason the company wants PBS is to realize a cost savings... a cost savings which will come via a loss of flexibilty and vacation time/pay.

should we do this? perhaps we should if only because what we habe now is unreasonable... but not because we think PBS will allow us to have our cake and eat it to because it won't. anyway let me check out of this discussion and add my peace to the real SWAPA forum where we can discuss this without outsiders who perhaps don't understand what we have now mistakenly explain how the changes will effect SWA pilots.

 

[DH2WN]

Herein lies the problem........ I do not trust our union to cull the garbage out of what goes into the program......

Once again here it is. It seems we don't have problems with the idea of changing the system. What we need to do is change our union becuase clearly the only people who like it are the people running it and no one trusts them.

....and to think I had gotten away from ALPA at my last carrier. It seems it's no different here just a smaller scale.