SWA took one step closer to being a regional carrier

[CKJET]

I have a buddy with American...He has had 367 days off straight...course the pay has been less than he would like. I think I can live with only getting 17 days off a month.

PBS would kill any flexibility we have in our schedules. I prefer to make my lines better through elitt or trip/trade. I don't want the company trying make my lines better.

American has given me close to 1500 straight days off. I agree with your buddy the pay is not great!

 

[737tanker]

The thing that worries me about PBS is how it would handle vacations. Under the current rules at SWA I turned 1 week of vacation into 18 days off, and then I took 2 weeks of vacation in March and turned it into 31 days off. So for 3 weeks of vacation I had 49 days off, and I only lost 7 TFP. Could PBS do that? From everything I hear the answer is no..

 

[Tripower455]

The thing that worries me about PBS is how it would handle vacations. Under the current rules at SWA I turned 1 week of vacation into 18 days off, and then I took 2 weeks of vacation in March and turned it into 31 days off. So for 3 weeks of vacation I had 49 days off, and I only lost 7 TFP. Could PBS do that? From everything I hear the answer is no..

It could, but likely won't...

 

[canyonblue737]

I hear you on the schedule. The side letter was not very clear and it was only a test. I think that's why few voted on it. We definitely don't want PBS.

Unfortunately, I have spent alot of time debating the pro's and con's of PBS and I would say PBS may be what both sides are looking for. PBS would allow management to gain more productivity by eliminating most of the month to month integration and scheduling problems (saved heads like LOA 31), and it also would allow pilots the ability to build a schedule that has high credit and lower days off or lower credit and more days off.

Their are some potential hidden surprises in PBS and it would take a lot of testing to work out the hidden surprises and to ensure that PBS is the solution is really what the pilot group wants.

Dude, I am a SWA guy and I used to fly for a company with PBS. You *don't* want PBS, it will kill QOL for 90% of us. While you can make a PBS system give you similar benefits to what we have now, that negates the whole purpose of using PBS from the companies standpoint... so if and when we get PBS it will result in the loss of vacation time, scheduling conflicts that benefit the pilot, the extreme flexibility to change your schedule after you get it etc.

 

[canyonblue737]

PBS is unrelated to vacation. It's just a way to pick the trips you want to fly and put them into your monthly schedule.

Vacation is handled differently at different companies. Bid your line on PBS, then overlay vacation pn top, what's wrong with that?

With PBS you get the month of trips you want, instead of the month of trips that some guy who doesn't know you puts together.

the *whole point* of PBS from the companies perspective (and it will be expensive so they need a positive) is preventing vacation and monthly overlap issues. you will not get the company to overlay vacation on top of a PBS line... ever. as someone who flew a PBS system, i can't imagine ANYWAY you get a PBS system to produce the cash advantages and flexibility to change your line post receiving it... short of simply gutting the core of the PBS system that saves the company money... why they want it.

now if we decide the sacrifice in pay (vacation) and flexibility (tons of options to drop, elitt, trade etc. will be reduced by PBS) after the fact is worth the benefit to the company (due to poor industry conditions etc.) and the ability to get slightly closer to the line you wanted in the first place (in terms of trip density and destinations, a/c type etc.) that is a different story. just don't think you can have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Widow's Son]

I have never worked with PBS, but the guys that I have flown with who have say that it is nothing like what it is being made out to be. What is it about PBS that would make trip drop, trip trade, elitt, and other flexibility issues go away? Those are net zero items for the company now and they are happy as long as the trips get covered. Wouldn't all those items work independently from any scheduling scheme that we have and continue status quo whether we had PBS or anything else?
Personally I don't like having to spend a lot of time bidding and then a whole lot more time trying to make what I get acceptable through Elitt which I have never been able to connect to on the day it opens anyway. Regardless, if Elitt is so flexible to fix things wouldn't it be just as flexible under PBS especially if there were fewer things to fix?

 

[SWAPoolie]

For SWA people who don't read the SWAPA forum:

The only true way to know how PBS will affect us is to test it side by side with our current system for several months to a year. We would bid with the old method and the PBS method to see how PBS would turn out, but not use it. Just a real time test bed. This is how I tested systems at AT&T back when IT depts. were called CIS depts. I don't understand why we wouldn't do that here.

This way we can work out the details with actual use of the product and determine what is good for us and the company. I would like to think there would be a give and take from both parties.

Short of this, I'm voting no on PBS. That decision is purely based on the loose language of the current contract and the animosity toward the union I see each day from the people I meet and fly with. There needs to be more union trust out there and it's all in the details. Additionally, there are too many loopholes for the company to get us on and us to get the company on. If PBS isn't tested properly before going live with it the company will take advantage and the pilots who "work the system" will also take advantage. That leaves idealists like myself taking it from all sides.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Radar, The one thing I will NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, consider is PBS if it turns my 7 day vacation into a 7 day vacation. Last month I had 18 days off with a 7 day vacation bid.

Can you get 3 weeks off with a one week vacation award if you have PBS?

Gup

Last year I got 24 days off in a row with one week of vacation with PBS.

 

[GuppyWN]

Well there you have it. Who do you work for because I'm sure PBS is a very hot item for the company and I'd like to know who to reference as a comparison.

Thanks,
Gup

 

[Guppiedriver]

Dude, I am a SWA guy and I used to fly for a company with PBS. You *don't* want PBS, it will kill QOL for 90% of us. While you can make a PBS system give you similar benefits to what we have now, that negates the whole purpose of using PBS from the companies standpoint... so if and when we get PBS it will result in the loss of vacation time, scheduling conflicts that benefit the pilot, the extreme flexibility to change your schedule after you get it etc.

I can't believe that you used to work for a company that had PBS, because you clearly don't understand it.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Well there you have it. Who do you work for because I'm sure PBS is a very hot item for the company and I'd like to know who to reference as a comparison.

Thanks,
Gup

AWA (aka US Airways new). Everybody is afraid of PBS, because of the unknown. It's not perfect, but once you understand it pretty easy to use. IMO, the guys that have used it and still hate it are the guys that don't take that time to understand it.

I have had months where I was mis-awarded, because of a software programming glitch and got a sh!tty line. But I was able to trade most of the sh!tty trips out after the bid award. Our mis-award resolution sucks, so I went to the trade board and open time to fix my line. The mis-award was not PBS's fault, it was a human programming error. Garbage in = Garbage out.

We ran parallel bids for about six months until we switched over from paper bids to PBS. That way you could see how your PBS bid would turn out compared to your real paper bid. Each month you could tweak your PBS bid until you got results that matched your paper bid.

 

[Skyboy722]

I also came from a company that implemented PBS while I was there, and they ran a "Test period" as well. The only problem with that is that it only takes a couple of guys who choose not to participate because it's not "the real thing", and the results for everyone junior to them are severely skewed. I was thrilled with the lines that PBS built for me, until the tests were over and the real thing began. Then, of course, everyone bid. And I never saw a decent line again.

 

[Tripower455]

Garbage in = Garbage out.

Herein lies the problem........ I do not trust our union to cull the garbage out of what goes into the program......

 

[canyonblue737]

i used PBS for 3 years.

i can't deny it makes nice lines in many cases and it gives pilots lots of options for creating their line. the problem of PBS isn't PBS itself, it is how it compares with what SWA has NOW. PBS will causes MAJOR issues with vacation time and pay and it will reduce flexibility compared to our current ELITT/TRADE/DROP system because it will eliminate the vast majority of overlap issues that create the open time trips that allow for changes to trips and open time picks up above and beyond your normal line. can you make PBS leave open time, or allow the company to overlay overlap corrections on top... yes you can but then you eliminate the reason for going to a PBS system which is to realize a cost savings from fixing overlap and vacation issues.

you can't accurately say PBS is good because Airline X loves it, you have to ask what they had before in terms of a system. perhaps the old way didn't have much flexibility after the lines were awarded so the pilots now are really happy because their initial lines are more what they want. but to decide if PBS is good for SWA you have to weigh how the system creates lines (based on how it is programmed which is decided between the company/SWAPA in the contract) vs. what we have now. i just can't see a way we won't lose because frankly what we have now is really a steal of a deal in terms of what we can get away with and the whole reason the company wants PBS is to realize a cost savings... a cost savings which will come via a loss of flexibilty and vacation time/pay.

should we do this? perhaps we should if only because what we habe now is unreasonable... but not because we think PBS will allow us to have our cake and eat it to because it won't. anyway let me check out of this discussion and add my peace to the real SWAPA forum where we can discuss this without outsiders who perhaps don't understand what we have now mistakenly explain how the changes will effect SWA pilots.

 

[DH2WN]

Herein lies the problem........ I do not trust our union to cull the garbage out of what goes into the program......

Once again here it is. It seems we don't have problems with the idea of changing the system. What we need to do is change our union becuase clearly the only people who like it are the people running it and no one trusts them.

....and to think I had gotten away from ALPA at my last carrier. It seems it's no different here just a smaller scale.

 

[SWA/FO]

What we need is more people to VOTE. Vote and vote often!!

 

[Guppiedriver]

Herein lies the problem........ I do not trust our union to cull the garbage out of what goes into the program......

Well I thought the SW pilot group, SWAPA, and SWA all got along.

Even though we have similar distrusts with our union/company, the PBS system is still not bad. Flexibility after bid awards is not a function of PBS. We handle that through Maestro. Once lines are awarded, you are free to trade pilot to pilot or through open time.

I would not vote for PBS unless you are able to secure good language (open time, etc...)and flexibility for trip trade/drop/pick-up. SWA wants PBS. Therefore, you should demand something in return (flexibility).

 

[SWAPoolie]

Well I thought the SW pilot group, SWAPA, and SWA all got along.

Even though we have similar distrusts with our union/company, the PBS system is still not bad.

You don't know this until it's tested....

 

[airlinepilot]

Nothing to trade for

We have trips to trade for now because of the structure of our present system. What everyone needs to realize is under PBS there is nothing to trade for because it assigns all trips. There will not be any first of the month overlap trips dropped, there is no training conflicts and no vacation problems. GUys and gals....PBS assigns every trip. So the only open time is when someone calls in sick. It takes care of all the conflicts that now give us trips to trade for in ELITT, monthly open time, etc. You cannot trade trips when there is nothing to trade for. I used PBS for 2 years and know what I am talking about. It would change our scheduling system and our current freeedom totally. Think about where the trips come from that we trade for on ELITT. With PSB none of those trips would be there....

 

[Guppiedriver]

We have trips to trade for now because of the structure of our present system. What everyone needs to realize is under PBS there is nothing to trade for because it assigns all trips. There will not be any first of the month overlap trips dropped, there is no training conflicts and no vacation problems. GUys and gals....PBS assigns every trip. So the only open time is when someone calls in sick. It takes care of all the conflicts that now give us trips to trade for in ELITT, monthly open time, etc. You cannot trade trips when there is nothing to trade for. I used PBS for 2 years and know what I am talking about. It would change our scheduling system and our current freeedom totally. Think about where the trips come from that we trade for on ELITT. With PSB none of those trips would be there....

I have used PBS for six years and you're wrong. PBS does leave trips in open time if it is programed that way. It's your job to negotiate the percentage of open time that will be set aside.

If I understand what your saying.....you have been getting extra days off because your current bidding system doesn't recognize that you have vacation, training, or carry in trips? Then the trips that are in conflict with those events are dropped? I see why SWA wants PBS.

 

[SWA/FO]

oooppss, I was just trying out my new signature.

 

[canyonblue]

Everybody is afraid of PBS, because of the unknown.

I agree with you there. It seems that many of the Captains I have flown with that are Anti-PBS, are the very same ones that cannot figure out the OPC or the FMC. Change, whether better or worse, would severely affect these people. My wife uses PBS at her carrier, and it the only thing that has helped us fly opposite lines for the past 10 years. Also, PBS at SWA could change your vacation bonus depending on what base you are at. It seems that the company can get you back to base from anywhere if you are based in MDW, but other bases are not as easy. Others who have used PBS in the past are either very for, or very against. Much of this is due to their former carriers. Some used the K-Tel version of PBS, where others have used much nicer systems. The Ex-TWA pilots I have flown with are the most supportive of it. I have heard that the NWA system is one of the best, maybe an NWA pilot could chime in. The bottom line for me is I don't think that our Union leadership has the skills to effectively negotiate a top notch system. Unfortunately for us, and obviously the company, it would not go far in a vote (possibly the first 100% turnout )

 

[DH2WN]

I agree with you there. It seems that many of the Captains I have flown with that are Anti-PBS, are the very same ones that cannot figure out the OPC or the FMC.

Wait until we get EFB......If I hear one more time (using a gruff voice), "In the -200 we never had that crap and I don't need it now....)

(gruff voice) "Ugh, it's time to descend didn't you do the math." ---Um, no Capt. if you look at the FMC we still have 5 miles to go.--- "F- that FMC crap. In the -200....."

Dime to a dollar when EFB comes you are still going to see Capts. carrying their own jepps around.

 

[NuGuy]

I have heard that the NWA system is one of the best, maybe an NWA pilot could chime in. The bottom line for me is I don't think that our Union leadership has the skills to effectively negotiate a top notch system. Unfortunately for us, and obviously the company, it would not go far in a vote (possibly the first 100% turnout )

Heyas Canyon,

As I mentioned before, we have PBS at NWA, and everyone loves it.

We use to have a system of hard lines. Every month, a bid list would come out, and next to your name was a time. This time was a 5 minute window where you could call and place your bid with a "bid anaylst". He/she would tell you want lines were still available or you could construct a line out of open flying. Or if you wern't going to be available during your window, you left a computer bid with just a list of choices.

Guys in MSP could bid in person. The room looked somewhat like a commodity trading pen, with big matrixes of lines, and phones for guys to call in and see whats left.

As you can imagine, this whole process was ridiculously complicated, time and personel intensive.

The PBS system works so much better, there isn't even a comparason. Our system leaves pages and pages of open time, which we are free to swap with. There are always guys who have whole months of unavailabilty (mil leave, instructors, union leave, etc), and all that flying remains. So much in fact, that we have contract language that blocks the company from withholding MORE than 5% of the trips from the bidding pool.

But the nice thing about PBS is you get to pick your trips (or type of trips) right out of the chute. Want high value trips? Use the AWARD AVDAILY CREDIT command with a high daily value. Don't like short overnights? Use the AVOID LAYOVER < XXXX command. You get good trips at the start, and you just don't have to fuss with your schedule afterword. I think I've used a trip swap all of about 4 times since we started using PBS 6 years ago.

I've also turned 7 days of vacation in 18-20 days off. Heck, I turned 3 days of vacation into 21 days off (my personal best).

Oh, yea, another good part. We get our schedules earlier to boot. Bidding deadline is 0400 on the 12th, and you usually have your schedule by the 14th.

This doesn't come without effort on the union side, however. We have a standing "computer bidding committee" who's job it is to oversee the process, monitor the results, and follow up on questions. Lots of volunteers help smooth the process at first. For obvious computer foul ups, there is a bidding error process, and the company has always been more than fair about (and this is NWA we're talking about).

Nu

 

[radarlove]

Whoah there big fella. Here some guy who has never seen the computer screen layout of a PBS program telling you that "All the trips get assigned!", and that "Seven days of vacation equals seven days off!", and here you go telling him about your real experience.

Sheesh, next you'll be telling him that "You know, Vnav really works pretty well on those 'descend via' arrivals' and his head will explode, because lord knows you have to glue a cover over the Vnav button as soon as a new airplane shows up at LUV.

 

[canyonblue]

"You know, Vnav really works pretty well on those 'descend via' arrivals' and his head will explode, because lord knows you have to glue a cover over the Vnav button as soon as a new airplane shows up at LUV.

Now in all fairness, that "Drag Required" in the scratchpad, followed by the inevitable VNAV disconnect can also be as much a pain sometimes. But I agree that the "Seven days of vacation equals seven days off!" mantra has been unfairly spewed around here.

 

[canyonblue737]

If I understand what your saying.....you have been getting extra days off because your current bidding system doesn't recognize that you have vacation, training, or carry in trips? Then the trips that are in conflict with those events are dropped? I see why SWA wants PBS.

And you should see why pilots at SWA wouldn't. With these extra days you either take QOL or you pick up open time, often at 1.5x rates for extra pay. Also our bids are done and out on the 11th-12th each month and the ability to change the line ourselves remains massive for the remainder of the month and into the month in question also. Your system at NWA before PBS sounds like a nightmare but we are eating cake here already so what you feel are PBS's strong points may not offset some of our losses to QOL and pay because of PBS.

 

[canyonblue]

We have a standing "computer bidding committee" who's job it is to oversee the process, monitor the results, and follow up on questions.

Nu

Thanks Nu,

Unfortunately, our bidding committee is not that up to speed. Click on the link.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/images/United10.gifhttp://www.fta.dot.gov/images/United10.gif

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Heyas Canyon,

As I mentioned before, we have PBS at NWA, and everyone loves it.

We use to have a system of hard lines. Every month, a bid list would come out, and next to your name was a time. This time was a 5 minute window where you could call and place your bid with a "bid anaylst". He/she would tell you want lines were still available or you could construct a line out of open flying. Or if you wern't going to be available during your window, you left a computer bid with just a list of choices.

Guys in MSP could bid in person. The room looked somewhat like a commodity trading pen, with big matrixes of lines, and phones for guys to call in and see whats left.

As you can imagine, this whole process was ridiculously complicated, time and personel intensive.

The PBS system works so much better, there isn't even a comparason. Our system leaves pages and pages of open time, which we are free to swap with. There are always guys who have whole months of unavailabilty (mil leave, instructors, union leave, etc), and all that flying remains. So much in fact, that we have contract language that blocks the company from withholding MORE than 5% of the trips from the bidding pool.

But the nice thing about PBS is you get to pick your trips (or type of trips) right out of the chute. Want high value trips? Use the AWARD AVDAILY CREDIT command with a high daily value. Don't like short overnights? Use the AVOID LAYOVER < XXXX command. You get good trips at the start, and you just don't have to fuss with your schedule afterword. I think I've used a trip swap all of about 4 times since we started using PBS 6 years ago.

I've also turned 7 days of vacation in 18-20 days off. Heck, I turned 3 days of vacation into 21 days off (my personal best).

Oh, yea, another good part. We get our schedules earlier to boot. Bidding deadline is 0400 on the 12th, and you usually have your schedule by the 14th.

This doesn't come without effort on the union side, however. We have a standing "computer bidding committee" who's job it is to oversee the process, monitor the results, and follow up on questions. Lots of volunteers help smooth the process at first. For obvious computer foul ups, there is a bidding error process, and the company has always been more than fair about (and this is NWA we're talking about).

Nu

I am not one of those "I dislike PBS" folks. Never used it. But I have seen much less flexible options elsewhere. PBS for you is like offering a Ritz cracker to someone living on Saltines.

PBS could make our line better to begin with, but we are all happy with our ability to "fix" our schedules after the lines come out. I really believe we stand to gain next to nothing and take a risk of losing most of our current flexibility moving to to PBS. There are better ways to get more productivity and reduce overlap. This PBS is just a negotiating tactic. I hope we come to agreement soon on overlap.



You should understand that when I get a line at SWA I can trade a pairing for others unassigned in ELITT (instant trade on computer) until I get the days off I want. I can trade AM's for PM's, or pack all my flying close together and get 8 days off in a row. I can even trade down to a reduced line and get extra time off (which is why SWA management wants more productivity).

I can pick up trips or give them away to other pilots with our other option, trip trade. Then I have another option called daily open time and can pick up last minute flying (assigned by seniority and bid by 0900 the day prior)

We also have EF (Extra Fly list) and the company will call us and offer a trip. We can turn it down or take it.

Someone tell me PBS is more flexible. SWA is good to the pilots and I hope it stays that way

 

[DH2WN]

We also have EF (Extra Fly list) and the company will call us and offer a trip. We can turn it down or take it.

Being new to the company I can tell you the EF/VJA/JA is the worst convoluted system ever. Why not have one freaking list? This whole answer the phone and scream out, "Take me off VJA. Okay, what's up?" If the company wants people to pick stuff up get rid of the 5 day requirement and make one time and a half list. Sometime this resistent to change hurts more than helps.

There are some ancient processes here that boggle my mind.