SWA today like the airline in the book, "Nuts!"?

[humveedriver]

It's truly pathetic how many people feel so little of themselves and their careers that they're willing to surrender everything they've earned because of the most minute risk. You can justify it in your own mind all you want by talking of "life experience" and the hordes of kids that you have to take care of, but it's really just cowardice. But tell yourself whatever you need to to make yourself sleep better at night.

Whatever man. We all grow up some time. Some just take longer than others.

 

[SWA Bubba]

We'll see what the DRC brings. Not holding my breath tho.

At least my conscience is clear and I don't feel the need to rationalize my cowardly vote.

I think you're missing the point. You don't think those people believe their conscience is just as clear as you do yours? You don't think that everyone on the other side of the argument isn't exactly as sure of the validity and righteousness of their point as you? You can keep bitching all you want, but all you're doing is trying to make yourself feel better. The only impression you're making on the other side is NOT that they believe you, or that they secretly know but won't admit what you keep repeating; it only reaffirms in their mind what an "angry, deluded" individual, who's "in denial," that you are. I can't believe that you don't get that.

While there may be some cosmic judge who will one day tell people who was right and who was wrong, it certainly ain't you or them. Unless some sort of "smoking gun" appears for one side or the other (probably not likely), nobody is ever going to change their mind about their point of view here. Ever. But keep bitching about it; maybe it's cathartic for you, and you can get over being so angry. Maybe it'll help you be a little happier (and perhaps even live longer) with less stress.

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

You can keep bitching all you want, but all you're doing is trying to make yourself feel better.

Frankly, bitching about it is cathartic, so it does have some value in itself. I don't expect to convince any of the SWA pilots that we were right and you were wrong about the integration, so it's certainly not about that.

 

[madjack]

No right or wrong, it was a business deal...bounded by signed contracts that were adhered to...

 

[waveflyer]

So what's it about for you PCL?

 

[PCL_128]

So what's it about for you PCL?

I only post here to refute lies, typically from you or from Max. When lies go unchallenged, they have a tendency to become thought of as truths.

 

[-9Capt]

No right or wrong, it was a business deal...bounded by signed contracts that were adhered to...

...which included threats and ultimatums which were clearly unethical and resulted in a lop-sided integration that will result in long lasting resentment and animosity...

 

[waveflyer]

I only post here to refute lies, typically from you or from Max. When lies go unchallenged, they have a tendency to become thought of as truths.

Name a "lie" from me

Please remind

 

[waveflyer]

...which included threats and ultimatums which were clearly unethical and resulted in a lop-sided integration that will result in long lasting resentment and animosity...

You have your choices- and it certainly was lopsided- against junior SWA FOs

 

[PCL_128]

Name a "lie" from me

Please remind

Let's start with your claim that the MEC was intentionally delaying the vote on the first deal.

 

[PCL_128]

You have your choices- and it certainly was lopsided- against junior SWA FOs

Another lie. Junior SWA FOs gained relative seniority.

 

[-9Capt]

You have your choices- and it certainly was lopsided- against junior SWA FOs

...and 20 yr captains at AirTran will be downgraded to FO. Yeah, you're right, the junior RSW FOs were screwed over. Get a grip man.


I will once again refer you to my signature line below.

| | |
VVV

 

[j41driver]

You guys need your forum back...

Now that's funny.... :-D

 

[-9Capt]

You have your choices- and it certainly was lopsided- against junior SWA FOs

How many AirTran pilots were stapled below them? I forget?

 

[madjack]

How was it unethical for the company to involve itself in the negotiations of the most influential (and expensive) labor group? As a share holder you would be pleased that a negotiated settlement was reached...

 

[redflyer65]

Gary involved himself in the integration because he brought the checkbook, plain and simple.

Would he pay SW rates to AirTran immediately or later? That was his decision and his alone. ALPA and/or SWAPA had no input on that.

In what world did an AirTran pilot job equal the same job at Southwest? There was no way RS or DOH was even a possibility. It's done and over guys. Move on, or not. You can rant and rave for years, but it won't change the agreement, or the guys mind beside you.

 

[madjack]

In this catharsis, I would go one step further and say the jobs are equal, but the advantage always was on the side of the pilots from the acquiring side, I think the AAI MC got that...that is only "fair" after all...during the next acq...if there is one you will be on the winning side...

 

[waveflyer]

Another lie. Junior SWA FOs gained relative seniority.

Gained? You're the one lying on that. I will retire at a lower number and same percentile as before- and I'm relatively young

And further I should gain and didn't -that's the problem- acquiring carrier. Years longer to get the job for most. MUCH superior contract and much superior working conditions-

Look PCL- I know you're influence and your opinion cost your air tran peers thousands upon thousands of dollars, so you need to justify that to cover your arse for lack of judgment, but air tran pilots gained tangible things from being bought and had to give up RELATIVE seniority and nothing else-
SWA pilots literally gained nothing except further stagnation

PCL, answer me this- what can I put into my accounts as a result of this purchase?

 

[PCL_128]

Gained? You're the one lying on that. I will retire at a lower number and same percentile as before- and I'm relatively young

I don't care where you'll retire. Trying to project such a thing is impossible, because it's too far out and too many things can change. That's why arbitrators generally don't look beyond five years. What matters is now, and you gained relative seniority at the expense of the AirTran pilots. A windfall at the expense of someone else. Exactly what arbitrators always seek to avoid, which is why you wanted to avoid arbitrators.

PCL, answer me this- what can I put into my accounts as a result of this purchase?

There's your problem. You have an entitlement mindset. You weren't entitled to gain anything. You were entitled to maintain what you had, or something close. That's it.

 

[madjack]

Arbitration is what our CEO wanted to avoid...and he did...the AAI side felt it would do better at arbitration than at the negotiating table...it may have, but going head to head with an actively involved management was, in hindsight, a bad idea when your side had vulnerabilities (an unwanted airframe)...he quite simply did not need all your assets to get what he needed...

 

[-9Capt]

.

Would he pay SW rates to AirTran immediately or later? That was his decision and his alone. ALPA and/or SWAPA had no input on that.

I agree, so what? I never felt entitled to your CBA. Unless I'm being represented by SWAPA, why should I?

In what world did an AirTran pilot job equal the same job at Southwest? There was no way RS or DOH was even a possibility.

That is something we'll never agree on, which is fine. Its been debated over and over anyway. That's why it was agreed upon that this decision was to be made by a neutral 3rd party if we couldn't agree among ourselves. Maybe the arbitrator would have agreed with you, maybe not, but to use threats and ultimatums to intimidate the other side is a pure admission that what you're trying to accomplish is neither fair nor equitable. If it was, the threats wouldn't be necessary as the offer would be able to stand on its own merits. If you are not capable of understanding that, we have nothing left to discuss.

Congratulations, your side won, good for you. You played dirty pool, F-ed us over and got what you wanted. Well done. You should be proud.

 

[jball2]

At what point can everyone agree to disagree? I have yet to see anyone, on either side, convince the other that they got a good or bad deal. Like I've said before, your anger only holds you hostage to those you are angry at. Its GAMEDAY!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

 

[vixin]

PCL wanted it all. When you guys realize that you will stop argueing with his useless drivel. He wouldn't have been happy with RS, our contract, QOL, security and a dozen Krispy kremes. He would have wanted 2 dozen. He is just a greedy slob. Thankfully he won't be working at SWA. Fellow AAI pilots don't want him here either. I would feel bitter to if everyone couldn't stand me.

 

[redflyer65]

There's your problem. You have an entitlement mindset. You weren't entitled to gain anything. You were entitled to maintain what you had, or something close. That's it.

That's hilarious PCL.

So you would have liked more seniority AND to almost double your salary, immediately jump to better contract and to a more stable company that constantly throws off profit sharing to it's employees? I think you just laid out the definition of entitlement my friend.

All the while SW pilots gained no extra money, no additional stock or options and around 2% global seniority increase. In my case (as with many junior to mid-FOs), I won't upgrade ONE DAY earlier with this deal. Not one day. So again, what did the SW guys get?

 

[HowardBorden]

I don't care where you'll retire. Trying to project such a thing is impossible, because it's too far out and too many things can change. That's why arbitrators generally don't look beyond five years. What matters is now, and you gained relative seniority at the expense of the AirTran pilots.

Absolutely INCORRECT! Do you think they just pulled the seniority numbers out of a hat like BINGO? Actually, trying to figure out where you will retire is incredibly simple. We have a mandatory retirement age so one must simply plug in the numbers as they relate to a pilots age and you have the data.

Will some quit? Of course. Lose their medical? Certainly. Will the airline cease to exist by the end of the decade? Certainly possible.

In the end the finalized list gave a temporary bump to SWA pilots which is slowly eroded by the much younger pilot group from AirTran as one marches toward retirement with hundreds placed on the list that are much younger than the ones on the list pre-acquisition.

Many say: What was wrong with relative seniority? Well, if you are part of a much younger pilot group, then nothing is wrong for you. But at the date which relative seniority is implemented, everyone is exactly equal at that moment; but, it then becomes a huge windfall for the younger pilot group as time marches on.

The implemented list gives me a temporary 6% bump in seniority which slowly erodes over time and I end up less than one half of one percent different on the list at age 65 than I would have without the AirTran acquisition. If you think that is a coincidence, you would be completely wrong.

 

[StopNTSing]

...and 20 yr captains at AirTran will be downgraded to FO. Yeah, you're right, the junior RSW FOs were screwed over. Get a grip man.


I will once again refer you to my signature line below.

| | |
VVV

It wasn't do we grow Southwest, or do we buy AirTran? It was, we need AirTran to go away, so we can grow in the future, Mr. Kelly said.

Fixed it for you to more accurately describe the real message. The longer this integration goes on, the more true that modified quote reads.

 

[K-Mart]

Here's a question for the AirTran folks:

Would you have been willing to go to an arbitrator to end your last contract negotiations with your management prior to the SWA acquisition?

 

[madjack]

-9cpt, our side "won" only because Kelly needs us, we generate $$$, we are not any better, just the guy with the check book needed us to show up for work...he bought AAI to eliminate a competitor and gain access to ATL, he didn't need the -717 (or the pilots)...not right or wrong, just business...SWAPA had no obligation or inclination to NOT accept a negotiated settlement...

 

[-9Capt]

-9cpt, our side "won" only because Kelly needs us, we generate $$$, we are not any better, just the guy with the check book needed us to show up for work..

So SWAPA pilots were willing to engage in an illegal strike if we went to arbitration and allowed an impartial decision to be made regarding seniority? Somehow I doubt that.

he bought AAI to eliminate a competitor and gain access to ATL, he didn't need the -717 (or the pilots)...not right or wrong, just business...

Well I guess if that's true he should consider our poor morale and work ethic a result of that decision.

SWAPA had no obligation or inclination to NOT accept a negotiated settlement...

I don't know what those words mean when they are arranged in that order.

 

[redflyer65]

I agree, so what? I never felt entitled to your CBA. Unless I'm being represented by SWAPA, why should I?

I'm confused 9Capt. Then why were MOST of the AirTran pilots overly excited about being purchased by Southwest?

Was it..

A- Getting SW pay and work rules vs. what you had?
B- Getting rid of your horrible management team?
C- Working for a more stable company with a long history of success?
D- All of the above.