SWA to speed up Airtran integration.....article

[Lear70]

What? Within a couple of thousand dollars at the very, very top end of DL equipment and you want to say that's a 'win'? That's a really weak arguement.

Let's put it this way... a 12 year SW FO makes more than any DL FO except for maybe the 747. And even then, it's marginal. So for 95% of all aircraft types at Delta, the SW pilot does better. (As a side note, I'm thrilled that the DL/UAL pay is going up. It's helps everyone.)

14% DL contribution vs. 9.3% SW. I like the Delta retirement compensation, but again..no slam dunk for allowing so much outsourcing and codeshare.

The SW pilot also gains another 1% because he doesn't have to send double that to Herndon.

So to say that ALPA has done a great job over the years with any of this is laughable. Que the TWA lawsuit music, backed with 2000 RJs taking off simultaneously.

I think you're missing that in order to get the 9.3% from Southwest, you have to contribute 10%.

At Delta that 14% is a DC fund, otherwise known as a B-fund, similar to what we had at AirTran before all this. You don't have to contribute a dime to it, Delta simply deposits 14% every paycheck into your self-directed DC account. That's what SWA should be negotiating for here as well. The 9.3% into a D.C. fund, not a 401(k) without matching contribution required, plus the profit sharing. However, the company realizes a tax savings from the 401(k) account, so it's a bit of a double whammy to change it, so I don't see that happening.

That said, Delta's TOP numbers in TOTAL compensation (757/767 and larger) are, and will continue to be, higher than SWA TOTAL compensation moving forward, especially in 2015 when their CBA makes a larger jump. Or, to put it more succinctly, SWAPA will have to negotiate about a 9% pay increase across the board to match top Delta compensation numbers after 2015, accounting for pay rates, retirement, medical, and per diem, all of that WITHOUT giving up work rules that equal pay in other areas (and I'm talking about the pay from the average line value, not the Cartel and POT people).

That includes the extra 1% to Herndon.

We knew this was coming. Again, SWA pay was only at the top because of the bankruptcy-imposed CBA's everywhere else. Once the carriers become profitable again and once Sec 6 negotiations had time to take advantage of that, we always knew Legacy carriers would eclipse SWA rates again.

HOWEVER... we shouldn't even be worried about matching LWB rates. In a non-bankruptcy contract, it's asinine to assume a mostly-domestic and short-international 737 operation would match the compensation numbers of true-international carriers running 767's/777's/747's/787's/A330's/A340's/A380's.

Not hating, I'll enjoy the eventual pay raise, but SWA pay isn't the top of the game anymore and likely won't return to that spot anytime in the near future. Best SNB pay? Absolutely. Best overall compensation package including LWB pay? Not anymore, and likely never again, but only less by a few percentage points, and if it keeps the company solvent and stays pretty close to top compensation rates of CAREER expectations elsewhere, I'm good with that.

You want 787/A380 pay? Go work for an operator that flies them. SWA has a different mission profile, different route structure, and is difficult to compare except to other SNB pay rates. Is it a great career in terms of compensation? Absolutely. Am I going to complain that I'm not the highest-paid pilot in the U.S.? No, that's retarded.

Why we're having this discussion is the question... "mine is bigger than yours" only matters to those who are insecure about it. Does it fit what you want out of life in terms of compensation? Is it good for your equipment type compared to the rest of the industry? Then don't worry about it. Jeez...

 

[Ty Webb]

You're a slow learner if you think you'd ever have seen that money.

Yep.

I was against SIA1 for two reasons- seniority and language.

And I'm still against it.

 

[General Lee]

I think you're missing that in order to get the 9.3% from Southwest, you have to contribute 10%.

At Delta that 14% is a DC fund, otherwise known as a B-fund, similar to what we had at AirTran before all this. You don't have to contribute a dime to it, Delta simply deposits 14% every paycheck into your self-directed DC account.

Delta's numbers are, and will continue to be, higher than SWA compensation moving forward, especially in 2015 when their CBA makes a larger jump. Or, to put it more succinctly, SWAPA will have to negotiate about a 9% pay increase across the board to match top Delta compensation numbers accounting for pay rates, retirement, medical, and per diem, all of that WITHOUT giving up work rules that equal pay in other areas (not including the people who game the system with Cartels and POT with nearly 60-80% monthly overrides in pay from the average line value).

That includes the extra 1% to Herndon.

We knew this was coming. Again, SWA pay was only at the top because of the bankruptcy-imposed CBA's everywhere else. Once the carriers become profitable again and once Sec 6 negotiations had time to take advantage of that, we always knew Legacy carriers would eclipse SWA rates again.

In a non-bankruptcy contract, it's asinine to assume a mostly-domestic and short-international 737 operation would match the compensation numbers of true-international carriers running 767's/777's/747's/787's/A330's/A340's/A380's.

Not hating, I'll enjoy the eventual pay raise, but SWA pay isn't the top of the game anymore and likely won't return to that spot anytime in the near future. Best SNB pay? Absolutely. Best overall compensation package including LWB pay? Not anymore, and likely never again.

You want 787/A380 pay? Go work for an operator that flies them. SWA has a different mission profile, different route structure, and is difficult to compare except to other SNB pay rates. Is it a great career in terms of compensation? Absolutely. Am I going to complain that I'm not the highest-paid pilot in the U.S.? No, that's retarded.

Why we're having this discussion is the question... "mine is bigger than yours" only matters to those who are insecure about it. Does it fit what you want out of life in terms of compensation? Is it good for your equipment type compared to the rest of the industry? Then don't worry about it. Jeez...

Lear,

It's tough to explain anything to some of these Corndogs. They have been on top of the World since the legacy BKs, and the return to health of many of these carriers makes them nervous. I hope you eventually can fly with them, and I hope you do well and make a lot of money, because you will DESERVE it to fly with this bunch. Wow. If not, there will be plenty of hiring if you want to bailout, and nobody would look down on that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Lear70]

Wasn't done editing but seeing as I'm going to be a "Corndog" someday, I'm not all that concerned about not matching DL 777 Total compensation numbers flying a 737 back and forth to Central and South America at its furthest-reach trips.

As long as the total compensation package at the end of my career was within a few percentage points of where I could have been anywhere else, I'll be just fine. It may not be the career I wanted, but only a frakking idiot would complain about having this kind of job in this kind of economic environment and in THIS industry.

Some will bail to DL and other Legacies and they'll be just fine, too. All this wailing and gnashing of teeth over a few percentage points in pay rates is kind of silly, isn't it?

 

[redflyer65]

Lear,

Your post is well thought and accurate, and I do understand the difference between the DC vs 401k. I said in my post that I like that, it's a great plan.

And, I agree that the Delta payrates will forge ahead, but when they agree to those payrates with allowing regional pilots to fly planes as large as DC9s, then there's a problem. And it's going to affect the entire industry.

Widebody vs. Narrowbody. Your right again. Want a widebody job, I'd so go to the middle east. But as you said before, that's not for everyone and the timing might not be right. Different mission is right.

So will SW continue to be the highest pay in the US? No, but it's pretty damn close for a small airline from Texas that no one that was worth anything. And that's really what pisses the General off. Corndogs making more than him. It irritates him so much he has to pounce on anything SW.

And just for the record...

I don't really care to get in the 'Mine is Bigger than Yours' arguements, so if it came off that way...I'm sorry. I didn't mean it that way. Just trying to compare the two carriers as they are now and where they are headed. I've very happy with my compesation, and it sounds like you will be when you come over. The General is happy with his. It's all good in the end.

As a side note, I still think SW will get a widebody at some point in the future. Might be 10, 15 years away. But as a CEO, wouldn't it be a slam dunk to marry a single widebody type to the 737 narrowbody network? SW has the BEST domestic feed in the country. Put that together with 'new' international, and it would be a huge success. Just my opinion.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Lear,

It's tough to explain anything to some of these Corndogs. They have been on top of the World since the legacy BKs, and the return to health of many of these carriers makes them nervous. I hope you eventually can fly with them, and I hope you do well and make a lot of money, because you will DESERVE it to fly with this bunch. Wow. If not, there will be plenty of hiring if you want to bailout, and nobody would look down on that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Why would other airlines "returning to health" and paying their pilots more make us nervous? Good God, General, we've been waiting for it and rooting for it. Being the only group paid at the top is what can make someone nervous. It's about freakin' time Delta and others started getting paid at our level or better; it's good for all pilots' negotiating abilities going forward when higher pay is more common, rather than being an outlier.

Does your hatred for "Corndogs" cause you to not even read the crap you write before you hit the submit button?

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

Why would other airlines "returning to health" and paying their pilots more make us nervous? Good God, General, we've been waiting for it and rooting for it. Being the only group paid at the top is what can make someone nervous. It's about freakin' time Delta and others started getting paid at our level or better; it's good for all pilots' negotiating abilities going forward when higher pay is more common, rather than being an outlier.

Does your hatred for "Corndogs" cause you to not even read the crap you write before you hit the submit button?

Bubba

BINGO!

He can't help but hate on Southwest. It's a great thing that those payrates are coming up all around us.

 

[General Lee]

Lear,

Your post is well thought and accurate, and I do understand the difference between the DC vs 401k. I said in my post that I like that, it's a great plan.

And, I agree that the Delta payrates will forge ahead, but when they agree to those payrates with allowing regional pilots to fly planes as large as DC9s, then there's a problem. And it's going to affect the entire industry.

Widebody vs. Narrowbody. Your right again. Want a widebody job, I'd so go to the middle east. But as you said before, that's not for everyone and the timing might not be right. Different mission is right.

So will SW continue to be the highest pay in the US? No, but it's pretty damn close for a small airline from Texas that no one that was worth anything. And that's really what pisses the General off. Corndogs making more than him. It irritates him so much he has to pounce on anything SW.

And just for the record...

I don't really care to get in the 'Mine is Bigger than Yours' arguements, so if it came off that way...I'm sorry. I didn't mean it that way. Just trying to compare the two carriers as they are now and where they are headed. I've very happy with my compesation, and it sounds like you will be when you come over. The General is happy with his. It's all good in the end.

As a side note, I still think SW will get a widebody at some point in the future. Might be 10, 15 years away. But as a CEO, wouldn't it be a slam dunk to marry a single widebody type to the 737 narrowbody network? SW has the BEST domestic feed in the country. Put that together with 'new' international, and it would be a huge success. Just my opinion.

Red,

A lot of pilots make more than I do, but none are as cocky as your group on FI. Not all of your pilots are like that, but on here they are. I wanted SWA to keep the rates up, primarily because we had higher rates that certainly helped your cause after 9-11. Now your higher rates will help us. Your dealings with AT are troubling, and your attitude is equally as troubling. They are treated poorly, and there really is NO unity, which is important in a merger of groups. Continuing to keep one side paid a B type scale, flying the same type plane for less money, is REALLY bad for the industry. You keep trying to bring up the RJ issue, not seeing that while there were 70 more 76 seaters allowed, the TOTAL number were decreased SOONER and FOR GOOD, while the same deal allowed 88 of YOUR 717s to come over and fly routes that are currently flown by the Connection carriers. That means the recapture of scope has begun. But, you don't bring that up.....obviously...

Debating is not your thing, Red. And, treat the AT guys better. Go hug one, not slug one....and don't try to use tongue this time. Yuck...



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Why would other airlines "returning to health" and paying their pilots more make us nervous? Good God, General, we've been waiting for it and rooting for it. Being the only group paid at the top is what can make someone nervous. It's about freakin' time Delta and others started getting paid at our level or better; it's good for all pilots' negotiating abilities going forward when higher pay is more common, rather than being an outlier.

Does your hatred for "Corndogs" cause you to not even read the crap you write before you hit the submit button?

Bubba

No Bubba, many of you are so insecure and need to be the "leader" to feed those Corndog egos. I certainly don't hate anyone, but rather I respond to the over the top cockiness that many of you put on here each day. And, your FI group's ability to cast aside the true results of your merger and what effects it has on this industry simply amazes me. Can you not see the injustices? You probably can't.... Start with the B-scale and get back to me.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

Red,

A lot of pilots make more than I do, but none are as cocky as your group on FI. Not all of your pilots are like that, but on here they are. I wanted SWA to keep the rates up, primarily because we had higher rates that certainly helped your cause after 9-11. Now your higher rates will help us. Your dealings with AT are troubling, and your attitude is equally as troubling. They are treated poorly, and there really is NO unity, which is important in a merger of groups. Continuing to keep one side paid a B type scale, flying the same type plane for less money, is REALLY bad for the industry. You keep trying to bring up the RJ issue, not seeing that while there were 70 more 76 seaters allowed, the TOTAL number were decreased SOONER and FOR GOOD, while the same deal allowed 88 of YOUR 717s to come over and fly routes that are currently flown by the Connection carriers. That means the recapture of scope has begun. But, you don't bring that up.....obviously...

Debating is not your thing, Red. And, treat the AT guys better. Go hug one, not slug one....and don't try to use tongue this time. Yuck...



Bye Bye---General Lee

You think you are some great debater? I've thrashed you on here time and time again. You only 'win' in your own mind.

I'm glad you think allowing a Regional Pilot to fly your DC9 sized planes around is a good thing. Your first impression of that last contract was right, and now you try hard to spin it otherwise. You are good a spinning....NOT debating.

Your merger mania is troubling. It been long over and done. But you can hang on to it forever, and that's FANTASTIC!

Full Steam Ahead idiot.

 

[General Lee]

You think you are some great debater? I've thrashed you on here time and time again. You only 'win' in your own mind.

I'm glad you think allowing a Regional Pilot to fly your DC9 sized planes around is a good thing. Your first impression of that last contract was right, and now you try hard to spin it otherwise. You are good a spinning....NOT debating.

Your merger mania is troubling. It been long over and done. But you can hang on to it forever, and that's FANTASTIC!

Full Steam Ahead idiot.

You have never won anything. I always have a better retort that you don't think about beforehand. It makes me happy.

Allowing RJs the size of SMALL DC9s (current DC9-50s have over 120 seats, the DC9-10 had about 75 supposedly), wasn't the best idea, but one that was forced during BK mainly. The thing you fail to see is that the allotted number of RJs has gone way down, and the deal that was just made brought over 88 of your planes, that will actually cover the current 76 seat routes. You make no mention of that. And, I was in favor of the contract when I finally saw it. Just like your future negotiations, there is no real understanding until you see the offer. The only thing we hear about your future offer though is that it probably won't be a good one, and your negotiating people seem to agree, getting ready for a tough stance. Your airline started off as a LCC, and it has morphed into something different. We hope you stay strong, but realize it may be tough, and then you may have to give up something to keep those high rates, Red. What will that be?

The Merger mania is done in YOUR head Red, and many of you hope everyone will forget it. In the meantime, you still have a B-scale that will go on for years, which really does hurt this industry. That plan allows other airlines to keep seperate entities for YEARS, at different pay for the SAME PLANE. How is that good? You didn't get a JOINT contract first, with joint pay for same planes. It was divide and conquer, not "welcome aboard." Dreams were smashed, and you want people to forget. Sad but true Red.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWAdude]

You have never won anything. I always have a better retort that you don't think about beforehand. It makes me happy.

Allowing RJs the size of SMALL DC9s (current DC9-50s have over 120 seats, the DC9-10 had about 75 supposedly), wasn't the best idea, but one that was forced during BK mainly. The thing you fail to see is that the allotted number of RJs has gone way down, and the deal that was just made brought over 88 of your planes, that will actually cover the current 76 seat routes. You make no mention of that. And, I was in favor of the contract when I finally saw it. Just like your future negotiations, there is no real understanding until you see the offer. The only thing we hear about your future offer though is that it probably won't be a good one, and your negotiating people seem to agree, getting ready for a tough stance. Your airline started off as a LCC, and it has morphed into something different. We hope you stay strong, but realize it may be tough, and then you may have to give up something to keep those high rates, Red. What will that be?

The Merger mania is done in YOUR head Red, and many of you hope everyone will forget it. In the meantime, you still have a B-scale that will go on for years, which really does hurt this industry. That plan allows other airlines to keep seperate entities for YEARS, at different pay for the SAME PLANE. How is that good? You didn't get a JOINT contract first, with joint pay for same planes. It was divide and conquer, not "welcome aboard." Dreams were smashed, and you want people to forget. Sad but true Red.


Bye Bye---General Lee

What a waste of time in your life. You don't exist. Why would anyone even give you any consideration for your opinions. I don't care what you think because you are not who you say you are. You are littering up this site from having good, HONEST debate. Go reinvent yourself already. Get a fresh start.

 

[EngineThunder]

Paging OYS

 

[SWA Bubba]

No Bubba, many of you are so insecure and need to be the "leader" to feed those Corndog egos.

This sentence doesn't make any sense. Plus, it has absolutely nothing to do with what I said to you.

I certainly don't hate anyone,...

Personally, I doubt that any competent therapist would agree with this.

... but rather I respond to the over the top cockiness that many of you put on here each day.

Probably 90% of what you call 'cockiness' is responding to your inane and repetitive drivel. (Like my post here. See? You've sucked me into your neverending world of craziness)

And, your FI group's ability to cast aside the true results of your merger and what effects it has on this industry simply amazes me.

Really? "Effects on the industry"? And what exactly would that be? And what "true results" of a merger that has only barely started (200 out of some 1750 pilots so far) can be shown?

Can you not see the injustices? You probably can't.... Start with the B-scale and get back to me.

Sure, I'll get back to you here. How about you EVER getting back to me? You blather on and on about a B-scale, and despite me suppying you with answers, you ignore it and just repeat, ad naseaum, the same wrong crap over and over.

It is not a B-scale, General, no matter how much you want it to be. A B-scale is getting a lower payrate for the same job at the same company. Southwest and Airtran are still separate companies (albeit owned by the same parent), with different business models, and different rules. When Lear, or any other pilot flies an Airtran 737, he gets Airtran, ALPA-negotiated rates. When that same pilot transitions to the other company, and flies a Southwest 737, he gets Southwest, SWAPA-negotiated rates. That's pretty simple, isn't it?

Why doesn't the parent pay ALPA-represented pilots the same as SWAPA -represented pilots? Because it can't, that's why. It's that damn simple. Again, their business model is different and doesn't support SWAPA rates. Do you not ever read about some of these guys on the Airtran side bragging about not flying much, and stalling going over the partition, because they don't want to work so hard? Does that not tell you something about the rates each company can support?

Answer me this General, if Fornaro couldn't afford to pay Airtran pilots SWAPA rates for Airtran-type flying, why do you think that Southwest can for the same flying? Does snapping your fingers make everything work the way you want in YOUR world?

Is this ideal? Not in my mind. In my opinion, the best thing would be to get the groups and companies merged as soon as possible to enjoy the synergies. Then everyone would get the same benefits. However, there are real limitations to how fast you can do stuff in the real world, not to mention the limitations imposed by Southwest's IT department, and the unique differences between our two companies.

Bye Bye---General Lee

There you go, General--my remarks are in red. If you're gonna continue to pretend that you're a serious debater rather than the blowhard everyone else believes you to be, then actually address what I've said, instead of your normal M.O. You know, ignore it, and continue to spout uneducated and disproven crap. Your choice.

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

What? Within a couple of thousand dollars at the very, very top end of DL equipment and you want to say that's a 'win'? That's a really weak arguement.

Nope, I'm talking same size equipment. What you always fail to understand is that working 950 block hours to get $185k compared to working 700 block hours to get the same $185k means that your total compensation package is a hell of a lot less.

Per-pilot value of a contract = total pilot payroll/total pilot block hours