SWA Apps require type, 1 Nov start date

[jll]

Racepilot,

I interviewed in July. Should know a yes or no, hopefully, real soon. Don't know if the PHC met or not, but I heard it was in the last week.

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Grow Up

Where were you all raised? In the Soviet Eastern Bloc? We live in the free market system. So SWA will do what the market bears. For a while the supply of pilots was down, so they couldn't require a type. Now the supply of pilots is way up so they can require it. And every airline would make its employees pay for their training if the market would bear it. Supply and demand, that is the deal unless out side influences -- govt, unioins, etc change the playing field.


And for the rest of you arguing out here-- you are a bunch of special olympians-- win or lose, YOU ARE STILL RETARDED!

No one reads this because they are interested in where you went to school or about your life. (You sound more like a Col or Gen than a LTC, the way you prattle on about yourself.)

If you realized how little (time spent) people think of you, you would stop worrying about it so much.

 

[reepicheep]

Give SW this much credit - the method they choose to weed out applicants, the type rating, is something that a person can go out and do something about; they can get the rating. Most other companies these days have resorted to a system where if you don't have an "in" who can recommend you, then you don't get an interview.

You can't do anything about where you're friends happened to get hired, but you can get the type!

 

[swaforme]

Time for some facts, not hearsay.

Mr. Neeleman, along with his very talented and capable managment team, put together a very tight business plan. Fueled by a tremendous amount of start-up capital, Mr. Neeleman was able to negotiate the very best A320 deal in existence. No U.S. airline gets new A320's cheaper than jetBlue.

Although there might be a glutton of old airliners sitting around right now, that doesn't mean there is a shortage of financial institutions and leasing companies wanting to buy new airplanes and establish reliable lease agreements. Which is exactly what Mr. Neeleman does. He sells the aircraft for a small profit, then turns around and leases it back at terms favorable to both jetBlue and the new aircraft owner.

When combined with the "spendable" IPO proceeds, jetBlue is on track to financing 56 more aircraft in the next 4 years. They will have 84 aircraft by the end of 2007 based on their current agreement with Airbus and their strategic plan. They will have 32 aircraft by the end of this year.

Part of the Airbus deal does involve maintenance and aircrew training. Airbus is "paying for" most of the required maintenance during the first three years on each aircraft. Airbus also provides the initial aircrew training. In its SEC report, jetBlue states very clearly that it expects maintenance and labor costs to rise steeply in the coming years.

Of course, when the aircraft start to age, jetBlue can choose selectively which leases to renew, while continuing to add new aircraft with the same initial good deals from Airbus.

Mr. Neeleman and company never deny they are following in SWA's footsteps. Their advantage is knowing which footsteps to avoid, and their revenues/profits are doing their talking.

Will jetBlue target SWA? IMO, initially they are too busy scooping up the business passengers who want some degree of class, but can't fly Delta, AA, or UAL business class anymore due to travel budget cuts. Combined with the large east coast market and Florida, they will continue to prosper without going head-to-head with us. They will grow their point-to-point system quickly, however, and eventually will compete with us to some extent.

Look for their second crew base in either Long Beach or Oakland during the first half of next year.

As most of you know, the domestic airline industry has been changing dramatically the last few years, and 9/11 only accelerated the inevitable. By the end of this decade, we will see a completely different domestic landscape and, fortunately, be one of those at the top.

The question is whether ALL of us will ever see wages and benefits commensurate with our corporate success.

My understanding is that they have always been paying for their aircraft. The sweetheart deal that they have involves the warranties on their aircraft and their maint department. It is a way to allow the Euros to backdoor a subsidy to the airline and allows a startup to have a better cash flow initially. What Airbus does is allow airlines to charge them retail reimbursement for parts and services for warranty work while incurring a wholesale cost. This makes the maint department an initial profit center instead of a direct cost department. The incentive for the manufacturer is that the program encourages continuous additions of new aircraft, as older ones roll off warranty. There are capital advantages for the manufacturer that are back loaded, including high financing charges and higher parts costs when the aircraft do come off warranty. The carriers who participate in such deals hope that the early help will give them the leg up to deal with the downsides that eventually come. Boeing so far hasn't wanted to play that game, but may have to to compete. Mesa Airlines did a similar deal with Raytheon with the 1900D's that was good for them while the pyramid was building but killed them at the end.
Interesting hourlong CNN deal on JetBlue today. I think that they are definitely doing a lot of good things and will be around for some time, although I remember when both Western Pacific and Valujet were just as popular with the media.
Neeleman is a smart guy. I remember a talk he gave in SLC in-between Morris and JetBlue when he talked to business people about how the way to save 10 grand a year in salary was to give them 2 grand a year in "free" day care.
I think that JB is going to be a bigger problem to the big guys than they will to us. I also think that JB definitely needed to break out of its JFK one trick pony, but I think that they will lose a war of attrition on the West Coast out of Long Beach.

 

[Race Pilot]

swaforme,

Excellent post!! One that is very informative and not full of emotion as many in this topic have been. Some new twists on things in there that I had not heard before but all sound completely logical and very close to what I had heard from other sources. Wish I could have caught the CNN program. Again, thanks for the refreshing bit of sanity!!

 

[canyonblue]

JB, granted they haven't been around as long as SWA, is taking folks with no Airbus time but highly qualified in all other aspects, and are paying them a good deal more than SWA is paying their folks. (

Really?

The Washington Post article comparing jetBlue and United on the IAD-OAK route compared costs and stated the jetBlue Captain was making $7,500 a month. SWA F/O's make this amount. What are jetBlues CA rates? As far as the type, some airlines require a commercial, some an ATP, SWA requires a 737 Type as their minimum. It does not do anything for training, I still had to go through initial, I'll still have to go through upgrade. The minimum to work at SWA is a 737 type rating. I know pilots here who had theirs from Vanguard, West Pac, and even the military. I am not in favor of LOWERING minimums in any way. 737 type, 1000 PIC turbine, the HIGHEST minimums in the industry. By the way, in the Air Force was your call sign "ACE" with two s's

 

[Race Pilot]

canyon,

I won't dignify your last line with a response since that's obviously where your head is but if you are serious about wanting to know JB's pay rates, here they are:

Year 1 FO: $50.96/hr with 70 hr guarantee, $76.44/hr. for everything over 70 hours. 80 hour month = $4331.60

Year 1 CA: $110.49/hr <70, $165.74/hr >70. 80 hr month = $ 9391.70 (note: CA upgrade currently running ten months)

Year 2 CA: $113.00/hr <70, $169.50/hr >70. 80 hr month = $ 9605.00

Year 3: 80 hr month is approx $9860

Year 4: $10,030

I don't know where the Post got their info as even a 1st year Captain at guarantee is making over $7700/month. Flying only guarantee is pretty rare at JB from what I hear. But of course the press usually doesn't do much research on these things anyway.

I'll have to admit, I didn't realize a SWA FO makes $7500/month. Is this first year? What are upgrades running there now and what are the Captain rates? If you would like to keep this on a professional level and respond I and many others would appreciate it.

 

[V1Cutt]

I won't dig out my pay rate table (it can be searched on this forum), but I guarantee that you would have to be at least a 3rd year FO, probably working A LOT to make $7500 a month here at SWA. If someone would correct me, I would be happy about it.

As for the type rating and "pay for training" talk: Eat my dust - it was BY FAR the best INVESTMENT I ever made.

In the entire history of SWA, they have never received one single dime of anyones money for training. They have their specific employment requirements and other airlines have theirs (ever heard of a requirement to have a FE Written?)

JB is a fine company (I hear) and I wish them luck. They will probably need it (no slam intended).

 

[SWA GUY]

Ya know... no one has brought this equation up,


Requirement of most every other major airline:

College degree/ no type rating.



Requirement of SWA:

737 Type rating/ no college degree.


Guess which requirement will cost you ALOT more?


*That ought to cover the pay for training arguement.

 

[BrokenWing]

I'm guessing the one where they teach you how to spell "a lot" properly.

 

[Race Pilot]

That is amazing. You mean SWA doesn't require a four year degree?? No wonder they get so many apps that they have to require a 737 type. Is this really true??

 

[bluesideup1]

If you look close none of the majors REQUIRE a 4 year degree they all just RECOMMEND having a four year degree. I have met pilots from AA, UAL, SWA, JetBlue, US Airways and Continental all without 4 year degrees.

 

[Indapool]

Personally I think they should all require it. (I bet that gets some replies)

Perhaps a test to determine if you’re a fawking tool would be more appropriate

 

[Indapool]

noted

BTW did you know "Mr" Rogers over at Xpress 1?

 

[Race Pilot]

xXpress1 - No, I don't think ATA requires a four year degree. And I don't even know the percentage of those at ATA who have it although in today's market I doubt there are many airlines hiring people who do not have one. I guess I just got roped in by SWA Guy's post about most majors requiring one. It's true that most actually do NOT require a degree but prefer it. Obviously, I really don't think a college degree in Political Science, for instance, means that you are a better pilot than someone without a degree. My guess is that the majors look at this thinking that maybe you are more likely to do well in their training program, at least the book part of it, if you have been through four years of college. Probably also why they like to hire people that have had prior Part 121 training or military training which is very similar. Just a guess, and I'm not sure if I buy it, but I guess they have figures to back it up.