SWA Apps require type, 1 Nov start date

[ATA75Pilot]

Interesting thought....

What if all the major airlines followed SWA lead and began to require a type rating at the applicant's expense prior to an interview?

I think the uproar would be heard from coast-to-coast from those of us in the industry.

My fear is - at what point does it become unacceptable to buy your way into employment with a particular carrier?

In many cases (Pre 9/11) we were forced to pay outrageous fees just to apply and maintain a current application.

Is the next step having to pay for your hotel in Basic Indoc (I know there are those that do this).

How about having to buy your manuals? It's only a few hundred extra dollars.

Would it be acceptable then to pay a "fee" for the checkride and sim use for your initail checkride? Is it any different than when you tested for all your ratings? Private - ATP?

Maybe then the carrier could require you to pay the same fee for yearly currency checks as a requirement of employment. Most of us already have to pay the cost of a medical exam twice a year to remain qualified and employed. What is different in principal?

The Achilees Heel (sp?) of this profession is that because it is such a sought after position, airlines can require almost any criteria to be met and there will still be hundreds for a single job opening that will submit to meeting that criteria at any cost.

Just some philosophical ruminations....

Personal Rant Below - Feel Free To Ignore

As far as ATA being a Major...it has been classified as such by the DOT or a couple years now. Soon you will see us in the USA Today Money section as we are about to begin required DOT reportating stats.

Ours will be the longest bar graph at the bottom of the "Customer Satisfaction" grouping every week. You know...the one with the most complaints. Maybe after management sees that week in and week out they will be embarrassed enough to do something about it.

 

[RightBettor]

Bummer...

ATA757:

Sorry to hear things are still a bummer with ATA customer service (I once watched a MDW agent holler at an old lady and call that old lady "stupid"... had to step in on that one even though it wasn't my flight) and the Indy management hasn't improved any. I really enjoyed my time at ATA. The crews were all great!! I look forward to running to some old buds in MDW when SWA finally gets me out of this pool. I am shrivelled beyond belief!!! TMI... I know. BTW is R. Ennis still the CP at MDW? He is a great guy to have as a boss. How is J. Bronske in the flight office?

Take care,
RightBettor

 

[ATA75Pilot]

Ennis has been promoted to 757 Fleet Manager. The previous Fleet Manger was replaced (Lichtenburg) for being to "pilot supportive".

Joe Daley is now Cheif Pilot - MDW

Joanne is chuugin' along in her usual good natured mode.

You probably heard Tague was fired - er, left to pursue other interests.

You know how it is here.....Ready - Fire - Aim!!!!!!!!!!!!! (gonna have that inscribed on a brass plaque to hang in IND HQ).

Big push to send the front line employees (FA's and Customer Service) to school for training in passenger relations. Only because we soon have to report our stats to the DOT. I always said - you get what you hire. As long as ATA hires for cost instead of quality - what can you expect.

Good to hear you are in the pool at SWA. Great place to be these days. Where did you get furloughed from?

 

[Mr.Aviation]

SWA=GOOD OLD FASHIONED PFT!!!

 

[Race Pilot]

hudbaby,

I'm not trying to impress anyone, just stating the facts. And I don't know since you didn't bother to submit any of your qualifications to speak on the matter, but I suspect you have never participated in a "night school" Masters program from ERAU. When I went through at Andrews AFB in the late 80's it required quite a bit of work to earn the degree. Our classes were filled with not only military people from all services but also people like the Chief Tower Controller at Washington National Airport, the Chief of Aircraft Maintenance for Mobil Oil Corporation, high ranking officials from the National Business Aircraft Association (NBAA) and the Department of Transportation (DOT), just to name a few. And the classes were taught by professors with various backgrounds to include previous test pilots (both military and civilian) and a, I kid you not, retired rocket scientist from NASA. People with intelligence you and I can only dream of having. I don't know what programs are like now at places like, say, Pope AFB or elsewhere but this was no "give me" degree. I'm proud of it and always will be.

And as far as the rank thing goes, I do not use my rank in the civilian world; as I matter of fact I kind of chuckle when I see guys who sign letters "Lt Col, Retired" and things like that. I don't even use it in my military job except when I have to, such as signing an official document. But you know what, I and the others who have earned it, have the right to use it whenever and wherever we want. In this case I was simply trying to give perspective on the education I have received and the hurdles I have crossed to make it to this point in the Air Force. Again, since you didn't bother to post your qualifications to comment on the matter I can only assume that you have never pursued the education and served in the positions that it takes to earn that rank. If you feel that the Air Force or some other branch of service has dealt you a bad hand and choose to quit, that's your choice. But don't try to bash me or anyone else who chose to stick it out, serve my country, and do the work required to make it to this point. Those presently serving both home and abroad in our current war against terrorism would question your loyalties.

xXpress1,

I never, ever called an individual on this forum a name. And never will. That IS childish. I spoke of a company's philosophy and I think many others have now expressed that better than I can so I will leave it at that. ATA, as we all know now, is a major and as far as I know the ONLY one that is interviewing AND hiring at the moment. After one week in class I will say that I really like the people there that I have had the opportunity to meet. It scares me a little to hear all this stuff about customer service and such, but the people that I have met there are SUPER!! Oh well, Jet Blue is about halfway through my background check at this point..........................

 

[Race Pilot]

oopsahh,

No, not flying for JB. Just interviewed with them a couple of weeks ago and have made it on to Phase 2. I'm not sure on this as I have not actually seen the balance sheet, but my understanding is that JB has been putting an amount equal to what the aircraft payments would have been if they had not negotiated this "no initial payment" deal with Airbus into an account and earning interest on it while ensuring the money is there when the actual payments are due. Again, not sure but if true, smart business planning.

And yes, ATA has been around 30 years now, doing nothing but charter work until a few years ago. The "true" scheduled service push and current acquisition of airplanes started about two years ago when the 737-800s started coming on line and ATA now has the youngest scheduled service fleet of the majors. But yes, the comment about "fastest growing" was meant for JB, not ATA. ATA is a very conservative airline which is probably what has ensured its survival to this point, and allowed them to hire through a downturn such as this.

 

[jll]

Racepilot,

Just wondering how much time you have in the L-1011 and with ATA and why you would even consider JB?

 

[Race Pilot]

jll,

I have zero (0) hours in the Tri Star. I am a new hire in class right now. As for why I would consider JB, well, I had the interview scheduled before ATA called me with a class date so I showed up as scheduled to keep my word. I am quite impressed with their business plan and the word of mouth advertising they are getting from their customers is phenominal. If you go to www.jetblue.com and just read some of the things they have done, and are continuing to do, it's impressive. They are leveraging technology in every way to make things work smoother for every one and to keep costs down. The initial investment was high to do this but since they had a clean slate to work with they were able to do it right from the start. Other airlines, ATA included, are now trying to catch up on some of that stuff but with the structures that are already in place there it takes a significant investment to convert to new technology. Take a look at the front cover of the latest Forbes magazine, the front of last Tuesday's Money section of USA Today, or I believe next Wednesday's 60 Minutes II on CBS and see what they are saying. The big question of course is will JB make it in the long run. Many on the outside attempt to poke a lot of holes in the container holding the "Blue Koolaid" but it appears fairly leakproof to me after much research. I think they will make it and make it big. And to be # 300 say on a seniority list that can easily double that in the next three years is not a bad thing. Decisions, decisions....................

 

[jll]

Racepilot,

I've done my homework on JB and I too have my fingers crossed. I just hope you didn't state to them that your a L-1011 F/O as your Flightinfo profile states. Phase II is very thorough and that would be a sure way to get excluded from getting the PHC blessing.

 

[Race Pilot]

jll,

No, I didn't tell them that I was a L-1011 FO. But I did tell them that I was slated for the L-1011 at ATA. Being perfectly honest with them as everyone should be. I did tell them that I was a 727 Captain, which I am. Basically, just like the rest of life, the truth shall set you free. I tried to put (in tng) at the end of the L-1011 F/O in my profile but the system wouldn't allow that many characters. I didn't realize that people read those so close. But I figured out a way to make it a little more clear so as not to be confusing. I also added a signature that should leave no questions as to my status. Good luck to you at JB. Are you in Phase 2 or are your fingers crossed for another reason?

 

[jll]

Racepilot,

I interviewed in July. Should know a yes or no, hopefully, real soon. Don't know if the PHC met or not, but I heard it was in the last week.

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Grow Up

Where were you all raised? In the Soviet Eastern Bloc? We live in the free market system. So SWA will do what the market bears. For a while the supply of pilots was down, so they couldn't require a type. Now the supply of pilots is way up so they can require it. And every airline would make its employees pay for their training if the market would bear it. Supply and demand, that is the deal unless out side influences -- govt, unioins, etc change the playing field.


And for the rest of you arguing out here-- you are a bunch of special olympians-- win or lose, YOU ARE STILL RETARDED!

No one reads this because they are interested in where you went to school or about your life. (You sound more like a Col or Gen than a LTC, the way you prattle on about yourself.)

If you realized how little (time spent) people think of you, you would stop worrying about it so much.

 

[reepicheep]

Give SW this much credit - the method they choose to weed out applicants, the type rating, is something that a person can go out and do something about; they can get the rating. Most other companies these days have resorted to a system where if you don't have an "in" who can recommend you, then you don't get an interview.

You can't do anything about where you're friends happened to get hired, but you can get the type!

 

[swaforme]

Time for some facts, not hearsay.

Mr. Neeleman, along with his very talented and capable managment team, put together a very tight business plan. Fueled by a tremendous amount of start-up capital, Mr. Neeleman was able to negotiate the very best A320 deal in existence. No U.S. airline gets new A320's cheaper than jetBlue.

Although there might be a glutton of old airliners sitting around right now, that doesn't mean there is a shortage of financial institutions and leasing companies wanting to buy new airplanes and establish reliable lease agreements. Which is exactly what Mr. Neeleman does. He sells the aircraft for a small profit, then turns around and leases it back at terms favorable to both jetBlue and the new aircraft owner.

When combined with the "spendable" IPO proceeds, jetBlue is on track to financing 56 more aircraft in the next 4 years. They will have 84 aircraft by the end of 2007 based on their current agreement with Airbus and their strategic plan. They will have 32 aircraft by the end of this year.

Part of the Airbus deal does involve maintenance and aircrew training. Airbus is "paying for" most of the required maintenance during the first three years on each aircraft. Airbus also provides the initial aircrew training. In its SEC report, jetBlue states very clearly that it expects maintenance and labor costs to rise steeply in the coming years.

Of course, when the aircraft start to age, jetBlue can choose selectively which leases to renew, while continuing to add new aircraft with the same initial good deals from Airbus.

Mr. Neeleman and company never deny they are following in SWA's footsteps. Their advantage is knowing which footsteps to avoid, and their revenues/profits are doing their talking.

Will jetBlue target SWA? IMO, initially they are too busy scooping up the business passengers who want some degree of class, but can't fly Delta, AA, or UAL business class anymore due to travel budget cuts. Combined with the large east coast market and Florida, they will continue to prosper without going head-to-head with us. They will grow their point-to-point system quickly, however, and eventually will compete with us to some extent.

Look for their second crew base in either Long Beach or Oakland during the first half of next year.

As most of you know, the domestic airline industry has been changing dramatically the last few years, and 9/11 only accelerated the inevitable. By the end of this decade, we will see a completely different domestic landscape and, fortunately, be one of those at the top.

The question is whether ALL of us will ever see wages and benefits commensurate with our corporate success.

My understanding is that they have always been paying for their aircraft. The sweetheart deal that they have involves the warranties on their aircraft and their maint department. It is a way to allow the Euros to backdoor a subsidy to the airline and allows a startup to have a better cash flow initially. What Airbus does is allow airlines to charge them retail reimbursement for parts and services for warranty work while incurring a wholesale cost. This makes the maint department an initial profit center instead of a direct cost department. The incentive for the manufacturer is that the program encourages continuous additions of new aircraft, as older ones roll off warranty. There are capital advantages for the manufacturer that are back loaded, including high financing charges and higher parts costs when the aircraft do come off warranty. The carriers who participate in such deals hope that the early help will give them the leg up to deal with the downsides that eventually come. Boeing so far hasn't wanted to play that game, but may have to to compete. Mesa Airlines did a similar deal with Raytheon with the 1900D's that was good for them while the pyramid was building but killed them at the end.
Interesting hourlong CNN deal on JetBlue today. I think that they are definitely doing a lot of good things and will be around for some time, although I remember when both Western Pacific and Valujet were just as popular with the media.
Neeleman is a smart guy. I remember a talk he gave in SLC in-between Morris and JetBlue when he talked to business people about how the way to save 10 grand a year in salary was to give them 2 grand a year in "free" day care.
I think that JB is going to be a bigger problem to the big guys than they will to us. I also think that JB definitely needed to break out of its JFK one trick pony, but I think that they will lose a war of attrition on the West Coast out of Long Beach.

 

[Race Pilot]

swaforme,

Excellent post!! One that is very informative and not full of emotion as many in this topic have been. Some new twists on things in there that I had not heard before but all sound completely logical and very close to what I had heard from other sources. Wish I could have caught the CNN program. Again, thanks for the refreshing bit of sanity!!

 

[canyonblue]

JB, granted they haven't been around as long as SWA, is taking folks with no Airbus time but highly qualified in all other aspects, and are paying them a good deal more than SWA is paying their folks. (

Really?

The Washington Post article comparing jetBlue and United on the IAD-OAK route compared costs and stated the jetBlue Captain was making $7,500 a month. SWA F/O's make this amount. What are jetBlues CA rates? As far as the type, some airlines require a commercial, some an ATP, SWA requires a 737 Type as their minimum. It does not do anything for training, I still had to go through initial, I'll still have to go through upgrade. The minimum to work at SWA is a 737 type rating. I know pilots here who had theirs from Vanguard, West Pac, and even the military. I am not in favor of LOWERING minimums in any way. 737 type, 1000 PIC turbine, the HIGHEST minimums in the industry. By the way, in the Air Force was your call sign "ACE" with two s's

 

[Race Pilot]

canyon,

I won't dignify your last line with a response since that's obviously where your head is but if you are serious about wanting to know JB's pay rates, here they are:

Year 1 FO: $50.96/hr with 70 hr guarantee, $76.44/hr. for everything over 70 hours. 80 hour month = $4331.60

Year 1 CA: $110.49/hr <70, $165.74/hr >70. 80 hr month = $ 9391.70 (note: CA upgrade currently running ten months)

Year 2 CA: $113.00/hr <70, $169.50/hr >70. 80 hr month = $ 9605.00

Year 3: 80 hr month is approx $9860

Year 4: $10,030

I don't know where the Post got their info as even a 1st year Captain at guarantee is making over $7700/month. Flying only guarantee is pretty rare at JB from what I hear. But of course the press usually doesn't do much research on these things anyway.

I'll have to admit, I didn't realize a SWA FO makes $7500/month. Is this first year? What are upgrades running there now and what are the Captain rates? If you would like to keep this on a professional level and respond I and many others would appreciate it.

 

[V1Cutt]

I won't dig out my pay rate table (it can be searched on this forum), but I guarantee that you would have to be at least a 3rd year FO, probably working A LOT to make $7500 a month here at SWA. If someone would correct me, I would be happy about it.

As for the type rating and "pay for training" talk: Eat my dust - it was BY FAR the best INVESTMENT I ever made.

In the entire history of SWA, they have never received one single dime of anyones money for training. They have their specific employment requirements and other airlines have theirs (ever heard of a requirement to have a FE Written?)

JB is a fine company (I hear) and I wish them luck. They will probably need it (no slam intended).

 

[SWA GUY]

Ya know... no one has brought this equation up,


Requirement of most every other major airline:

College degree/ no type rating.



Requirement of SWA:

737 Type rating/ no college degree.


Guess which requirement will cost you ALOT more?


*That ought to cover the pay for training arguement.

 

[BrokenWing]

I'm guessing the one where they teach you how to spell "a lot" properly.