SWA/AAI and the flight deck jumpseat

[27 driver]

DOH would make the bottom 300 FOs at WN the bottom of that 7000+ list.
Do you see a problem with that?

Dude, think about your statement. It would make the bottom 300 fo's mad but it would make the top 50% or so fo's and most if not all of your captains pretty happy.

 

[SWA/FO]

Nobody knows what will happen in arbitration

Nobody knows what will happen after arbitration. :cartman:

 

[shagadelic]

Nobody knows what will happen after arbitration. :cartman:

That's exactly right...there WILL be some sort of a list at the end of this process... That much is certain. Beyond that...who knows.

 

[400ADude]

Lying in bed with a stomach virus. Just thinking about food is making my head spin.

I hope you feel better. That stuff sucks.

 

[ATLplt]

Aaaannd we're back to posturing and picking fights. :-/ You guys get spun up too easily. The MC's will figure it all out. What will be, will be.

I went with a couple burgers and a hybrid Chicago/chilli dog. Paired em with some bourbon and brown sugar baked beans, topped off with a couple Sweetwater 420's. Food coma setting in.

You may resume your bickering and general gayness gentlemen.

 

[redflyer65]

No posturing, just negotiations 101.

It's pretty straight forward, SWAPA has pretty much all the leverage, plus they have the GO at their back.

Would they fear arbitration? Absolutely not, the long list of gains for AAI pilots are legendary. The possiblity of a bad SLI with regard to the Southwest pilots? The operations would never be merged per Mike Van's 'no Southwest pilot will me harmed'. Read - Gary and Mike will not harm the culture. (Gary to piss of 6000 pilots vs 1700?, you be the judge)

The formulation of TWO LCC corporations was done for a specific reason and it had absolutely NOTHING to do with tax purposes other than being structured in Nevada. You guys can keep debating the above, but I have no worries about it. Cheers.

 

[Music]

No posturing, just negotiations 101.

It's pretty straight forward, SWAPA has pretty much all the leverage, plus they have the GO at their back.

Would they fear arbitration? Absolutely not, the long list of gains for AAI pilots are legendary. The possiblity of a bad SLI with regard to the Southwest pilots? The operations would never be merged per Mike Van's 'no Southwest pilot will me harmed'. Read - Gary and Mike will not harm the culture. (Gary to piss of 6000 pilots vs 1700?, you be the judge)

The formulation of TWO LCC corporations was done for a specific reason and it had absolutely NOTHING to do with tax purposes other than being structured in Nevada. You guys can keep debating the above, but I have no worries about it. Cheers.

More threats! You're a real piece of work. Life will get real ugly if this is how you expect this to be played.

Idiot!

 

[waveflyer]

Dude, think about your statement. It would make the bottom 300 fo's mad but it would make the top 50% or so fo's and most if not all of your captains pretty happy.

Really? I think you misunderstand how much the tone of Swapa pilots has turned towards looking out for our junior guys. That scenario would put all but a few hundred AT guys senior to me and that doesn't work for my 1 vote.

My prediction: start with DOH, then ratio down to leave 400-600 AT FOs at the bottom- no bump, no flush and some stock to make it all go down smooth. Then some serious growth to help us all have acquisition amnesia and become a new great swa doing things and growing in ways we never have.

 

[redflyer65]

More threats! You're a real piece of work. Life will get real ugly if this is how you expect this to be played.

Idiot!

I didn't structure it this way, but it's setup that way for a reason. If you don't believe so, the you have your head in the sand. Gary set this up..not the SWAPA pilots.

 

[redflyer65]

My prediction: start with DOH, then ratio down to leave 400-600 AT FOs at the bottom- no bump, no flush and some stock to make it all go down smooth. Then some serious growth to help us all have acquisition amnesia and become a new great swa doing things and growing in ways we never have.

I agree, that's basically what I was saying two weeks ago. I think anything more egregious on the Southwest side and things could get ugly fast.

 

[greenpilot]

My prediction: start with DOH, then ratio down to leave 400-600 AT FOs at the bottom- no bump, no flush and some stock to make it all go down smooth. Then some serious growth to help us all have acquisition amnesia and become a new great swa doing things and growing in ways we never have.[/QUOTE]

So,you think it's fair to staple 1/2-3/4 of the AirTran FO's below all the swa FO's hired after September?

 

[27 driver]

Really? I think you misunderstand how much the tone of Swapa pilots has turned towards looking out for our junior guys. That scenario would put all but a few hundred AT guys senior to me and that doesn't work for my 1 vote.

My prediction: start with DOH, then ratio down to leave 400-600 AT FOs at the bottom- no bump, no flush and some stock to make it all go down smooth. Then some serious growth to help us all have acquisition amnesia and become a new great swa doing things and growing in ways we never have.

Dude, that is a staple for half of our list. Arbitration it will be.

 

[Bob Dylan]

More threats! You're a real piece of work. Life will get real ugly if this is how you expect this to be played.

Idiot!

Get ugly? How exactly do you expect it to get ugly for anyone on the Southwest side of the fence?

As an impartial observer, it's astounding to see how clueless some of you trannies are regarding the leverage you are lacking.

It is mathmatically, statistically, and logically impossible for it to get ugly for Southwest. Won't and can't happen. The management at Southwest isn't going to poison their company for your sake. You guys will be twisting in the wind wondering how you pissed away the golden lottery ticket.

Beg for a staple.

 

[GuppyWN]

Of course you will. You guys come on here and talk smack. I have only read one person on your side who pitched an idea. I'm guessing you don't know what you want but it better be better than DOH, not relative, etc...

Sack up at least I tossed out an idea. This message board is the only chance we have to speak openly with eachother. The idea of us speaking openly is so scary that our union forbids it.

So please, by all means, tell us what you are thinking.

DOH is a non-starter for me....... and I'm not junior.

Gup

 

[texman]

You called it a battle. I see you've truly embraced the "warrior spirt".

Since we're not suppose to talk about SLI scenarios, (and I'm hungry), I propose a subject change: Hot dogs on the grill...

Should I go Chicago style with the peppers and such, straight up spicy, chilli dogs, or take it south of the border with salsa dogs? I'm indecisive, discuss...

I was being sarcastic. You caught that though.LOL

 

[greenpilot]

DOH is a non-starter for me....... and I'm not junior.

Gup

I agree 100%

 

[Music]

I didn't structure it this way, but it's setup that way for a reason. If you don't believe so, the you have your head in the sand. Gary set this up..not the SWAPA pilots.

You don't get it do you. Let me help you then. The LCC setup is what it is, I'm not debating what it may or may not be used for. Threatening us by continually pointing out 'doomsday' scenarios is not making any of us scared, it's pi$$ing us off. Yes, we're already apprehensive because we don't know what's going to happen but threatening us only makes my expectations grow because I'm getting pi$$ed off. That's why your statements are idiotic.

Waste of time anyway.

 

[400ADude]

Get ugly? How exactly do you expect it to get ugly for anyone on the Southwest side of the fence?

As an impartial observer, it's astounding to see how clueless some of you trannies are regarding the leverage you are lacking.

It is mathmatically, statistically, and logically impossible for it to get ugly for Southwest. Won't and can't happen. The management at Southwest isn't going to poison their company for your sake. You guys will be twisting in the wind wondering how you pissed away the golden lottery ticket.

Beg for a staple.

No way Bob their contract says 18 months they have to be integrated and oh yeah Mike Vanden said he would honor it too.:laugh::laugh:

My response:
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[carl p]

We should let the SWA guys pick 3 of us from the board, we pick 3 of them and hammer this out over some beers in a weekend.

FWIW, I think our MC is a sharp group and gives us a chance to get it done outside of arbitration.

 

[waveflyer]

My prediction: start with DOH, then ratio down to leave 400-600 AT FOs at the bottom- no bump, no flush and some stock to make it all go down smooth. Then some serious growth to help us all have acquisition amnesia and become a new great swa doing things and growing in ways we never have.

So,you think it's fair to staple 1/2-3/4 of the AirTran FO's below all the swa FO's hired after September?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do. More than fair. AND, I hold a moderate position and have been criticized by my fellow peers for thinking such generous SLI is fair.

But as the poster said below- if we can't close the gap- there is a process, of which I am not involved. It'll be how it'll be. But w/ 6 airlines in my 18 years- including a few of the most coveted jobs in history- my life improved over all of them in day 1 at SWA- there is a reason so many thousands have their app in to come to the bottom of all of us. So don't misconstrue my SLI opinion as being either meaningful or arrogant- respect is high- but you better RESPECT the position you are in to join SWAPA. It looks extremely bad on you if you are not grateful for the opportunity that fell onto you- and in no way will your life ever be worse off by joining this group anywhere on the list. Just don't even say it or let yourself think it. The only people who would tell you that are those who haven't worked here.

It IS ALL OUR PRIVELEGE TO WORK FOR HERB AND COLLEEN AND GARY'S AIRLINE. Make your SLI argument, and more power to it. But don't forget that.
And if push comes to shove- get on the list. I honestly don't know anything- but that's the feeling I have. Get on the list, even if it's tough pill for you personally- and DECIDE to be happy. It's premature advice, bc right now you should be making your case as well as you can- but if it comes down in a way you don't like- as a man who has friends there: Get on the list.

 

[Bob Dylan]

No way Bob their contract says 18 months they have to be integrated and oh yeah Mike Vanden said he would honor it too.:laugh::laugh:

My response:
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Um, right. Yeah, and also why do so many trannies think that the folks running Southwest Airlines will ever let this go to arbitration? Trannies think a wildly profitable and arguably the most successful airline in history with regards to managing their human resources is going to let a bunch of outsiders drop a stinky duece in their legendary and painstakingly cultivated punchbowl?

Never will happen. Guadaloupe Holdings will be closed down first.

My advice, beg for a staple and never look back except to count your freakin lucky stars!

 

[shootr]

So,you think it's fair to staple 1/2-3/4 of the AirTran FO's below all the swa FO's hired after September?

Yes. It may not go that far but yes, fair.

 

[Lear70]

My prediction: start with DOH, then ratio down to leave 400-600 AT FOs at the bottom- no bump, no flush and some stock to make it all go down smooth. Then some serious growth to help us all have acquisition amnesia and become a new great swa doing things and growing in ways we never have.

So,you think it's fair to staple 1/2-3/4 of the AirTran FO's below all the swa FO's hired after September?

Historically-speaking, that kind of thing has never happened in recent history during a seniority integration with a non-bankrupt carrier. Everyone not on property on the date of constructive notice will end up blended in at the bottom. Just the way things like this go...

It wouldn't surprise me if something like this is what SWAPA *OPENED* with in negotiations last month, but I would be highly surprised if they went into arbitration with that as their opener - you'd polarize all 3 arbitrators, 2 of which have established, recent arbitration history, one of them with the DAL/NWA arbitration (where up to 25% money gains by one group were largely ignored in the final solution) and one with RAH/F9 where the only pilots who got stapled were pilots NOT ACTIVELY FLYING (Midwest folks), even with the bankrupt Frontier, their F/O's weren't wholesale stapled like that. It's not smart to pi$$ off the arbitrator, and I doubt SWAPA would go in asking for that (see Nicolau for a prime example of what happens when you pi$$ off the arbitrator).

Not trying to argue, just stating that if you're expecting a NEGOTIATED settlement to go like you stated above (where pilots hired AFTER the announcement get placed senior to pilots on property at AAI 4-5 years), you're going to be highly disappointed. Our Merger Committee will never go for it, therefore it will never see vote at either group and it'll end up in arbitration.

Again, you may choose to believe that some type of doomsday scenario exists if it doesn't go your way, but our pilots simply don't. I thought we had moved past the threats and intimidation tactics that obviously aren't working...

 

[waveflyer]

Wait wait wait. Didn't see that. Everyone after the snapshot is below everyone. DOH would still make CJ and 300 or so pilots above him junior to every AT pilot-

All new hires since the snapshot are a cushion for everyone. I don't see how they could not.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Historically-speaking, that kind of thing has never happened in recent history during a seniority integration with a non-bankrupt carrier. Everyone not on property on the date of constructive notice will end up blended in at the bottom. Just the way things like this go...

It wouldn't surprise me if something like this is what SWAPA *OPENED* with in negotiations last month, but I would be highly surprised if they went into arbitration with that as their opener - you'd polarize all 3 arbitrators, 2 of which have established, recent arbitration history, one of them with the DAL/NWA arbitration (where up to 25% money gains by one group were largely ignored in the final solution) and one with RAH/F9 where the only pilots who got stapled were pilots NOT ACTIVELY FLYING (Midwest folks), even with the bankrupt Frontier, their F/O's weren't wholesale stapled like that. It's not smart to pi$$ off the arbitrator, and I doubt SWAPA would go in asking for that (see Nicolau for a prime example of what happens when you pi$$ off the arbitrator).

Not trying to argue, just stating that if you're expecting a NEGOTIATED settlement to go like you stated above (where pilots hired AFTER the announcement get placed senior to pilots on property at AAI 4-5 years), you're going to be highly disappointed. Our Merger Committee will never go for it, therefore it will never see vote at either group and it'll end up in arbitration.

Again, you may choose to believe that some type of doomsday scenario exists if it doesn't go your way, but our pilots simply don't. I thought we had moved past the threats and intimidation tactics that obviously aren't working...

That's a lot of chutzpah coming from a guy who was literally begging to be stapled to Southwest a few short months before they bought you.

 

[greenpilot]

Don't worry. It will not go doh. Even if it did you would have to take into account airtrans pilots who were furloughed. It would be based on longevity. Just like the NWA/republic merger. As it is right now AirTran has pilots on the list who are senior to people they were hired after. This is due to the merger between value jet and airways.

NWA tried for doh with delta. The same arbitrator we have wouldn't go for it.

 

[SWA/FO]

And if push comes to shove- get on the list. I honestly don't know anything- but that's the feeling I have. Get on the list, even if it's tough pill for you personally- and DECIDE to be happy. It's premature advice, bc right now you should be making your case as well as you can- but if it comes down in a way you don't like- as a man who has friends there: Get on the list.

Exactly, been telling my tranny for months.

 

[Kharma Police]

[/QUOTE]
Yes, I do. More than fair. AND, I hold a moderate position and have been criticized by my fellow peers for thinking such generous SLI is fair.

But as the poster said below- if we can't close the gap- there is a process, of which I am not involved. It'll be how it'll be. But w/ 6 airlines in my 18 years- including a few of the most coveted jobs in history- my life improved over all of them in day 1 at SWA- there is a reason so many thousands have their app in to come to the bottom of all of us. So don't misconstrue my SLI opinion as being either meaningful or arrogant- respect is high- but you better RESPECT the position you are in to join SWAPA. It looks extremely bad on you if you are not grateful for the opportunity that fell onto you- and in no way will your life ever be worse off by joining this group anywhere on the list. Just don't even say it or let yourself think it. The only people who would tell you that are those who haven't worked here.

It IS ALL OUR PRIVELEGE TO WORK FOR HERB AND COLLEEN AND GARY'S AIRLINE. Make your SLI argument, and more power to it. But don't forget that.
And if push comes to shove- get on the list. I honestly don't know anything- but that's the feeling I have. Get on the list, even if it's tough pill for you personally- and DECIDE to be happy. It's premature advice, bc right now you should be making your case as well as you can- but if it comes down in a way you don't like- as a man who has friends there: Get on the list.[/QUOTE]

You will get one vote and so will I, then 3 people will decide our fate. You and others still continue with your threats and chest thumping which to me is kind of sad and pathetic. All the AirTran pilots are excited about the future, you and your fellow, "there's nothing in this for me" crowd will be the problem, not us.

 

[SWA/FO]

You would feel the same way - if the shoe was on the other foot.

 

[Kharma Police]

You would feel the same way - if the shoe was on the other foot.

I tend to not worry about things I have no control over (like this SLI). I know as a generalization, pilots are control freaks but some you guys need to just let it go and let the process play itself out.