SWA/AAI and the flight deck jumpseat

[texman]

Tex,
Do you have a problem with subsidies. If so why? Cities want service and pay us to give it to them. Its easy money with little to no risk. It sounds like good business to me.

I don't. Our mgt does. After talking to Ron Ricks one of our VP's, he said it would not fit our biz model. I don't know why. After that question was asked the other pilot sitting next to me at dinner asked "when is South America and europe coming"? He stated soon! This was OCT of 2010. Don't know bro. The only thing I can think of, is SWA wouldn't be at the mercy of the city. You know, like by the balls! Same thing SWA has with AT now.LOL! Just pulling your leg.

 

[texman]

Like ECP for SWA?

ECP was not a city deal. ST JOE hooked it up. Two biz working a deal. No money was giving. We did nock it out of the park though.

 

[slaquer5]

]I don't. Our mgt does. After talking to Ron Ricks one of our VP's, he said it would not fit our biz model. I don't know why. [/B]

It is because when the city stops paying it is very bad PR to just pack up our equipment and leave.

 

[texman]

It is because when the city stops paying it is very bad PR to just pack up our equipment and leave.

That is a winner with me. I can see that being legit.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Some really good posts here by the SWA folk. Look, no one is trying to demean or threaten, but rather just making attempts to put it all in perspective.

If I were at AAI, I would probably prepare for a good portion of your folks winding up at the bottom of the list, which frankly is a pretty generous position for you all to be in. Word is that there was an air tran guy in one of SWA's newhire classes earlier this year, and when Gary Kelly came in to talk to the class, he asked if anyone had come from air tran. The fellow raised his hand, and Gary told him it was the best career move he ever made.

Is it a true story? Meh, beats me. But I'll say this. I'm on the SWA list, making good SWA bucks. If I'm at Air Tran, I'm not assured of anything, including a swa position, until I see my name on that SWA list.

 

[scoreboardII]

Ok I have to stop you right there. We fought very hard to get that codeshare. ALPA has a long proud history of outsourcing high paying jobs. SWAPA in all its "wisdom" wants to do "all" SWA flying... it's that kind of attitude that is making this industry a race to the bottom!

Word......:beer:

 

[Ty Webb]

Our deals are generally with private business groups, not local governments. They guarantee a level of ridership. Pensacola (Chamber of Commerce), and Gulfport (casinos), for example. Do a search....

In other news, the Earth is round. Film at eleven.

 

[Ty Webb]

Pretty cowardly, Tweet.

 

[onewithwings]

OK gentlemen, PLEASE refrain from posting personal information. This is the second post I've had to delete for that reason. I will close the thread if I keep receiving TOA infractions. Please treat each other with some sense of respect. Remember aviation is a very small world....just sayin'.

OWW~

 

[texman]

Our deals are generally with private business groups, not local governments. They guarantee a level of ridership. Pensacola (Chamber of Commerce), and Gulfport (casinos), for example. Do a search....

In other news, the Earth is round. Film at eleven.

Fair. Did not know that.

 

[PCL_128]

Greed is good.

Gordon Gecko.

You realize that he was the villain in those movies, right?

So, again, why is the strike vote irrelevant?

A strike vote is just part of the process. I had no expectation that we would actually have to go on strike. Taking a vote is just a step in the process towards asking the NMB for a release, which leads to "super mediation," which usually leads to a deal. In our case, I have no doubt that it would have lead to a deal. This management team was never going to take this to a strike. They were just going to take it to the brink to make their financial outlay as small as possible.

 

[scoreboardII]

You realize that he was the villain in those movies, right?

Yes, but did you see the second movie?:erm:

A strike vote is just part of the process. I had no expectation that we would actually have to go on strike. Taking a vote is just a step in the process towards asking the NMB for a release, which leads to "super mediation," which usually leads to a deal. In our case, I have no doubt that it would have lead to a deal. This management team was never going to take this to a strike. They were just going to take it to the brink to make their financial outlay as small as possible.

So you're saying, the strike vote got you a better contract, so it was relevant. Thanks.

 

[waveflyer]

How many times has Swapa had a strike vote?

Don't get it twisted- pilots for most airlines have to play that game and I respect the hell of the 95% vote.

But having to go that far and use those tactics is absolutely relevant bc it highlights the difference in working relationships.

It does seem that most of the arguments from AT are about what ifs- and possibilities. It "probably" wouldn't have gone to a strike. We will "probably" grow once combined. Etc etc. Whereas AT pilots will be getting our mgmt, our pay, our schedule- and I DON'T hate you for it AT ALL. But there IS a difference between "maybe","might" and "probably" AND "will happen".

It's like the old rap line: "you ain't gotta like me, you're just mad cause I tell it how it is and you tell it how it might be."

 

[PCL_128]

So you're saying, the strike vote got you a better contract, so it was relevant. Thanks.

Actually, the strike vote ended up not being relevant at all. Once the merger was announced, the NMB was done with any possibility of releasing us (politicians don't like messing with billion dollar transactions), so the strike vote became irrelevant. As a result of losing the leverage of NMB help, we ended up having to settle for a contract far less than we otherwise would have. The strike vote might as well have never happened, because it ended up playing no role whatsoever.

How many times has Swapa had a strike vote?

No one is disputing that management at Southwest behaves much differently than management at other airlines. The dispute is whether that should have anything to do with seniority integration. I think it's absurd to suggest that it should, but you obviously feel differently. That's why we have arbitrators in this business.

 

[waveflyer]

Absurd??
Are you ********************ing kidding me??
Look at everything that makes a pilot and person happy- this merger offers you time and schedule and money and life WITHOUT the fight.
Do YOU, PCL, even know how to conduct life as an airline pilot WITHOUT THE FIGHT? Do you even want line pilot life w/o the fight?

What is this offering Swapa pilots but a lot of maybes, mights, and probably's.

This is the kind of line where I tell my friends to look out for the subtle ways ALPA leadership will try to poison this deal- like ive said before- push comes to shove, get on the list. Don't let alpa tools who have always selected places to work where they can immerse themselves in drama and politics mess this up. Don't get mad. Don't think about the 2% better you might have gotten if you pressed a 1000x harder. Don't even think you aren't lucky. Just get on the list and ENJOY the ride. All will be well. But get on the list.

 

[PCL_128]

Absurd??
Are you ********************ing kidding me??

No, I'm quite serious. The fact that you've never had a strike vote has nothing to do with seniority.

Do YOU, PCL, even know how to conduct life as an airline pilot WITHOUT THE FIGHT? Do you even want line pilot life w/o the fight?

What fight? I'm not engaged in any fight. It seems to me that the SWA pilots here on FI are the ones who are looking to incite a fight. Look at redflyer continuing to issue threats. You don't see any AirTran pilots engaging in that sort of behavior. We're quite happy to let the process work as it was negotiated by all four parties. If we can't reach a deal, we go to arbitration. Whichever it is, I think 99% of the AirTran pilots will live with the result and go on about our business like adults. I'm not so sure that the same can be said of the SWA pilots here on FI, who are issuing threats and hardly embodying the culture that they claim to hold so dear.

Answer me this, wave: if this goes to arbitration, and the result is something you don't like (let's say you really don't like it), will you accept it and move on? Or will you start a riot and demand that the list never be accepted, despite the fact that the process agreement lays out final and binding arbitration as a step in the process? It's clear that many here would try to unravel the award. What say you?

 

[waveflyer]

I've been beating that drum since the beginning PCL-
I will accept it and move on. I understand that my life is fantastic at the bottom of this list.
But I will not concede that the fact I just stated isn't very different from the life of your FOs- or that that's irrelevant.
Since we're talking hypotheticals again- what about you? If you shoot for the moon and this deal doesn't work out- what will you do? Breathe a sigh of relief that you can stay on at ALPA? Do you think FAPA leadership served their members appropriately?

All this is mental - i do trust both our NC/MCs will do their job and we'll all be fine. Again, I predict you'll be ratio'd down from the DOH of your #1 guy in a way that leaves several hundred AT below CJ - and then we'll get down to the business of growing in ways that neither company has before.
Make no mistake- my message is a positive one- ALL of us are fine- we need to go through this process- but we're going to be great-
But remember- get on the list, PCL.
And no- our 1% are being no worse on here than your 1%- it's just FI- not reality.

 

[cole]

No, I'm quite serious. The fact that you've never had a strike vote has nothing to do with seniority.



If we can't reach a deal, we go to arbitration. Whichever it is, I think 99% of the AirTran pilots will live with the result and go on about our business like adults. I'm not so sure that the same can be said of the SWA pilots here on FI, who are issuing threats and hardly embodying the culture that they claim to hold so dear.

Wait just a second, you say 99% of Airtran pilots will be ok with a huge pay increase,job protection, and a superior contract no matter where you end up on the list? WOW you guys are quite the professionals!!!! If only SWA pilots were as professional to be happy with all the gains they receive..... which is status quo and 1700 new pilots who got hired without interviewing. It is sure gonna be a tough pill to swallow for the Airtran pilots, good luck.

 

[kwick]

It's obvious that Southwest is on the way down.

They always appeared reasonable, when Herb was around.

Now, they seem like a bunch of "cry-babies"

No "super-Seniority"

No "Seat-Grab on AT Captain seats.

Take DOH and be happy or it's gonna be relative seniority.

You guy's need to get back to reality!

 

[27 driver]

I don't. Our mgt does. After talking to Ron Ricks one of our VP's, he said it would not fit our biz model. I don't know why. After that question was asked the other pilot sitting next to me at dinner asked "when is South America and europe coming"? He stated soon! This was OCT of 2010. Don't know bro. The only thing I can think of, is SWA wouldn't be at the mercy of the city. You know, like by the balls! Same thing SWA has with AT now.LOL! Just pulling your leg.

Fair enough. :beer:

 

[27 driver]

It is because when the city stops paying it is very bad PR to just pack up our equipment and leave.

That makes more sense. That's why I just fly the planes I guess.

 

[Cometman]

You're living in 2001, buddy. :laugh:

Founded in 1993, it is one of America’s largest low-fare airlines and offers quality jet service with over 700 daily flights to 71 destinations.

If you are saying that because Airtran has 700 flights a day they should be considered equal to SWA then you should also consider that SWA does 700 flights in about 5 hours. The rest of the day they have an additional 2600 flights. There is no question that the 2 carriers are not equal.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Take DOH and be happy or it's gonna be relative seniority.

You guy's need to get back to reality!

Wow. You just go on thinking that.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Actually, the strike vote ended up not being relevant at all. Once the merger was announced, the NMB was done with any possibility of releasing us (politicians don't like messing with billion dollar transactions), so the strike vote became irrelevant.

You guys are either completely incoherent, or you are attempting politician-level spin. You had a strike vote. The fact that you even felt it necessary to have a strike vote, not to mention the 98% vote for a strike, shows the type of employment you had relative to a SWA pilot.

The more you all say the strike vote is irrelevant, the more out of touch you make yourselves appear.

 

[Lear70]

I've been beating that drum since the beginning PCL-
I will accept it and move on. I understand that my life is fantastic at the bottom of this list.
But I will not concede that the fact I just stated isn't very different from the life of your FOs- or that that's irrelevant.

That's fair enough, thanks for being honestly committed to the process. I don't think something will happen that will hurt the SWA pilots, but I don't think large staples are going to happen, either.

Since we're talking hypotheticals again- what about you? If you shoot for the moon and this deal doesn't work out- what will you do? Breathe a sigh of relief that you can stay on at ALPA? Do you think FAPA leadership served their members appropriately?

Well, that truly IS a hypothetical.

There is no "if the deal doesn't work out". The deal has already happened, back on May 2nd. You can't compare this deal to Frontier... Southwest never purchased their airline. They HAVE purchased ours. Whole different scenario.

All this is mental - i do trust both our NC/MCs will do their job and we'll all be fine. Again, I predict you'll be ratio'd down from the DOH of your #1 guy in a way that leaves several hundred AT below CJ - and then we'll get down to the business of growing in ways that neither company has before.
Make no mistake- my message is a positive one- ALL of us are fine- we need to go through this process- but we're going to be great-
But remember- get on the list, PCL.
And no- our 1% are being no worse on here than your 1%- it's just FI- not reality.

Interesting prediction, will be fun to come back here in about 6-8 months and see where it all came out. My predictions amongst my fellow pilots among them (which I'll share with you guys when we get there).

 

[Ty Webb]

If you are saying that because Airtran has 700 flights a day they should be considered equal to SWA then you should also consider that SWA does 700 flights in about 5 hours. The rest of the day they have an additional 2600 flights. There is no question that the 2 carriers are not equal.

The reason I posted that was in response to two of your guys, who were stating that SWA served many more, or even twice as many cities as AirTran, which is not true (the truth is 72-71). I posted the actual number, from an official site. You then turned this into a "what do you mean by that?".

What I see on here is SWA pilots who are using false "facts" and purely emotional arguments to try to justify taking as much seniority away from the AirTran pilots as possible.

Some of you "star-bellied Sneetches" need to get over yourselves.

 

[Ty Webb]

You guys are either completely incoherent, or you are attempting politician-level spin. You had a strike vote. The fact that you even felt it necessary to have a strike vote, not to mention the 98% vote for a strike, shows the type of employment you had relative to a SWA pilot.

The more you all say the strike vote is irrelevant, the more out of touch you make yourselves appear.

Sigh. Some of you have obviously never actually taken the time to read any of the Arbitrater rulings from previous SLI's between two non-bankrupt carriers.

Read the NWA/DAL ruling. Here's a link. Search the document [ctrl+F] for "strike". You will not find any reference to past NWA strike votes, or actual strikes. It didn't matter.

While you have that document open, read the damn thing. See if you can find any reference to "posts on anonymous message boards asking to be stapled" or "how many pilots left one carrier for the other", or any of the other emotional arguments you guys have been making on here. If either side thought those things were relevant, the Arbitrator sure didn't.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Sigh. Some of you have obviously never actually taken the time to read any of the Arbitrater rulings from previous SLI's between two non-bankrupt carriers.

Read the NWA/DAL ruling. Here's a link. Search the document [ctrl+F] for "strike". You will not find any reference to past NWA strike votes, or actual strikes. It didn't matter.

While you have that document open, read the damn thing. See if you can find any reference to "posts on anonymous message boards asking to be stapled" or "how many pilots left one carrier for the other", or any of the other emotional arguments you guys have been making on here. If either side thought those things were relevant, the Arbitrator sure didn't.

Are you implying that DL/NW is comparable to SWA/AAI? If so, what color is the sky in your world?

 

[texman]

I thought dal/nwa. Where bankrupt?

 

[Ty Webb]

Are you implying that DL/NW is comparable to SWA/AAI? If so, what color is the sky in your world?

Yes. GASP! When you take the emotion, the threats, and the sense of entitlement out of it, it isn't very complicated at all.

One carrier was hiring, expanding into international markets. It had tripled in size during the worst decade for airlines, and had another 30% fleet growth on firm order. It has a more junior pilot group, with quicker advancement but less compensation, although large gains had been made with each successive contract. Pay is definitely lower at this carrier, but they only at year 15 in their history.

The other carrier had been around longer, had more cash, a longer and more storied history, but in recent years, it had matured, its costs had gone up and growth had stopped. No pilot had been hired in the past few years, and folks at the bottom would likely not see much advancement until retirements began again. Any orders were for fleet replacement. More retirements are scheduled at this carrier, and the Captain age demographic is somewhat higher. Pay is definitely higher here, but after integration, both groups will be paid the same, so it doesn't take away from this group to pay the other pilot group the same hourly rate.

In other words, to an Arbitrator, it's not going to be brain surgery. There will be no staple. There will be no "bump and flush". There will likely be not a lot of change, period. That is their job- to merge the lists in a way that causes the least amount of change to a pilots' expectations for seat, equipment, domicile, and bidding power, and the number of years in the top seat.

I know you guys don't like it, but historically, that is how it has gone. If you want to take your chances on Arbitration, I think you'll be surprised and disappointed. As long as you keep thinking you are the "star-bellies", though, reaching a mutually agreeable list that will pass muster with both Pilot groups is unlikely.

This argument has not changed since September. Nothing has changed, except the exchanges have gotten uglier and more personal, unfortunately.